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Thread: Opinion: Sato and Asada partnership is not working!

  1. #1
    mylastduchess
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    Opinion: Sato and Asada partnership is not working!

    Nobu Sato is no doubt a coaching great and has worked wonders on many skaters, but sometimes a great coach and a great student doesn't always mean a great partnership. I don't want to go too much into detail but lets point out the facts he has failed to give Mao a 3Sal or a 3Lutz. Under Tarasova
    Mao at least had a working Slachow, and didn't get edge calls on her Lutz (as inconsistent as it was). Mao had those jumps in under a year with Tarasova, and Mao had to sacrifice a year with Sato with no other significant improvement in her jumps other than her Flip.

    But my problem with Sato coaching Mao is that he has changed many of Mao's traditional qualities. Like the rise and fall of her knees, something that I always thought helps her to gain speed.

    2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfZNA...eature=related - her dificulty and quality in her spins have also declined under Sato

    2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKVVFyB8w94 - notice her back posture is very forward

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    I think Mao has peaked as a skater. She looks so frail also at times it's no wonder she doesn't have the power or speed she once had. You have to have both to do the jumps and add that her technique wasn't the best it's no wonder she has struggled.
    Last edited by Jammers; 03-26-2012 at 09:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    I disagree quite a bit.

    I think the Sato-Asada partnership is working quite well considering what's going on. Mao is in a rebuilding phase and that means it will take time for her to work her way back to the top. I think she's been looking much stronger this season than last season. Her jump consistency is improving, there's more speed and flow to her jump exits, and most importantly she looks happy out there on the ice...as opposed to when she was with Tarasova and every time she stepped out on the ice it looked as though she was walking to the gallows.

    She's still struggling to get her lutz under control, just as she was with Tarasova. It's not as blatantly flutzy as it used to be but it's still a flutz. But let's not kid ourselves; she was flutzing with Tarasova as well. I'm of the opinion that had Mao and Tarasova continued to attempt the lutz instead of abandoning it for the 3a for a season and a half, Mao might be farther along with fixing it. As for the salchow, it's a jump she struggles with just like other skaters struggle with certain jumps but she's trying and that's what counts.

    As for the rise and fall of her knees, I can't say I see much of a difference...it hasn't affected her speed IMO. She still has wonderful carriage and flow across the ice. I think her spins look cleaner and there's better speed to them...that's just my opinion though.

  4. #4
    mylastduchess
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I disagree quite a bit.

    I think the Sato-Asada partnership is working quite well considering what's going on. Mao is in a rebuilding phase and that means it will take time for her to work her way back to the top. I think she's been looking much stronger this season than last season. Her jump consistency is improving, there's more speed and flow to her jump exits, and most importantly she looks happy out there on the ice...as opposed to when she was with Tarasova and every time she stepped out on the ice it looked as though she was walking to the gallows.

    She's still struggling to get her lutz under control, just as she was with Tarasova. It's not as blatantly flutzy as it used to be but it's still a flutz. But let's not kid ourselves; she was flutzing with Tarasova as well. I'm of the opinion that had Mao and Tarasova continued to attempt the lutz instead of abandoning it for the 3a for a season and a half, Mao might be farther along with fixing it. As for the salchow, it's a jump she struggles with just like other skaters struggle with certain jumps but she's trying and that's what counts.

    As for the rise and fall of her knees, I can't say I see much of a difference...it hasn't affected her speed IMO. She still has wonderful carriage and flow across the ice. I think her spins look cleaner and there's better speed to them...that's just my opinion though.
    Actually she had a fairly consistent 3Sal under Tarasova and she didn't get a edge call on her lutz as far as I can remember, yes compared to last year she has improved but that is not really saying much she spent a whole year relearning her techniques only to come out with the same jump repertoire she had at the beginning... and I disagree that her spins are faster.

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    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Mao's spin has improved in that she's more consistently spinning on different legs and different directions with better centering and change edge technique. And she's skating faster which shows up in scores in that she's getting level-4 step sequence more consistently and clearly has better speed in and out of a jump.

    Regarding her jump technique, it's still work in process but I think Mr. Sato has done a remarkable job. Her flip is fixed, the lutz is nearly there, and no one seems to remark on the fact that her axel technique has been revamped for the better. I notice that when all the other jumps were gone, her triple-sal was the only one she managed to do consistently in competition, and it's only this season that she hasn't managed. I suspect they only started reworking her sal technique (to make it 'textbook') this season when her flip, lutz and axel was getting more stable, so I'm expecting to see a revamped sal by next season (and perhaps a complete lutz as well).

    Once these new jump techniques stablize, I hardly know what else would need to be 'fixed'. It then becomes a question of conitnuing to improve her strength and avoiding injury.

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    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    We now know that Mao's Mom was seriously ill before her recent death. The stress, pressure and heartache Mao was enduring for the last couple of
    seasons is huge. IMO that is what has affected her skating and not her coaching situation. Time heals and I expect to see a markedly improved Mao
    next season.

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    It is for Mao to decide if teaming with Mr. Sato is working out for her goals, which I assume include having solid jump techniques with no tech calls, and winning the Sochi Olympics. None of these goals focus on immediate competition results. No doubt her progress was impeded by her mother's health and death.

  8. #8
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I disagree quite a bit.

    I think the Sato-Asada partnership is working quite well considering what's going on. Mao is in a rebuilding phase and that means it will take time for her to work her way back to the top. I think she's been looking much stronger this season than last season. Her jump consistency is improving, there's more speed and flow to her jump exits, and most importantly she looks happy out there on the ice...as opposed to when she was with Tarasova and every time she stepped out on the ice it looked as though she was walking to the gallows.

    She's still struggling to get her lutz under control, just as she was with Tarasova. It's not as blatantly flutzy as it used to be but it's still a flutz. But let's not kid ourselves; she was flutzing with Tarasova as well. I'm of the opinion that had Mao and Tarasova continued to attempt the lutz instead of abandoning it for the 3a for a season and a half, Mao might be farther along with fixing it. As for the salchow, it's a jump she struggles with just like other skaters struggle with certain jumps but she's trying and that's what counts.

    As for the rise and fall of her knees, I can't say I see much of a difference...it hasn't affected her speed IMO. She still has wonderful carriage and flow across the ice. I think her spins look cleaner and there's better speed to them...that's just my opinion though.
    I agree with you on everything.

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    I am so impressed with the improvements to Mao's skating under Mr. Sato. The beauty of her skating, which was lost under Tarasova, has returned, and her jump technique is so much better than before. I hope to see Mao regain her World Championship this week.

    No, she's not done yet, but her progress has been nothing short of remarkable, which is a tribute to her work ethic. Mao could have ridden her 3A to another World Championship or two, especially with Yu-Na not competing full time, but she opted to do the most difficult thing, which is to completely revamp her jump technique. She could not have picked a better coach to help her do this.

  10. #10
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Mao's spin has improved in that she's more consistently spinning on different legs and different directions with better centering and change edge technique. And she's skating faster which shows up in scores in that she's getting level-4 step sequence more consistently and clearly has better speed in and out of a jump.

    Regarding her jump technique, it's still work in process but I think Mr. Sato has done a remarkable job. Her flip is fixed, the lutz is nearly there, and no one seems to remark on the fact that her axel technique has been revamped for the better. I notice that when all the other jumps were gone, her triple-sal was the only one she managed to do consistently in competition, and it's only this season that she hasn't managed. I suspect they only started reworking her sal technique (to make it 'textbook') this season when her flip, lutz and axel was getting more stable, so I'm expecting to see a revamped sal by next season (and perhaps a complete lutz as well).

    Once these new jump techniques stablize, I hardly know what else would need to be 'fixed'. It then becomes a question of conitnuing to improve her strength and avoiding injury.
    I have to disagree about her flip. It still looks just like a flutz to me.
    http://youtu.be/qKVVFyB8w94?t=4m53s
    She clearly starts on an outside edge and turns into an inside edge as she's picking in. I know that she intends to do a flip there, but it doesn't mean I have to like the technique.
    That said, I love her liebestraum program, and she does look happier on the ice.

  11. #11
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mylastduchess View Post
    Actually she had a fairly consistent 3Sal under Tarasova and she didn't get a edge call on her lutz as far as I can remember, yes compared to last year she has improved but that is not really saying much she spent a whole year relearning her techniques only to come out with the same jump repertoire she had at the beginning... and I disagree that her spins are faster.

    Here's her lutz and salchow attempts while with TAT (not including non ISU events, ie. Japan Open or Japanese Nationals):

    2008-2009
    TEB: SP (doubled lutz with "!" call, all -3 GOEs), LP (no lutz, fall on sal)
    NHK: SP (clean lutz), LP (no lutz, clean sal )
    Final: SP (clean lutz), LP (clean sal, no lutz)
    4CC: SP (doubled lutz, all -3 GOEs), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    Worlds: (doubled lutz with "!" call, all but one -3 GOEs), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    WTT: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)

    2009-2010
    TEB: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    COR: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    4CC: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    Olys: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    Worlds: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)


    So under TAT, Mao managed 2 clean lutzes and 2 clean salchows in two whole seasons. IMO those stats can't be seen as remotely consistent or valid enough to give more credit to TAT for fixing any of Mao's jumps. If anything abandoning both the lutz and the salchow for an entire season is probably why Mao never got them consistent. Her lutz was on its way to getting better before they dropped it; and b/c her salchow was too iffy, they switched it to a 3t and never put it back in and it's now twice as hard for her to get it back.

    I think TAT has her merits but I really didn't like her coaching Mao at all.

  12. #12
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    I have to disagree about her flip. It still looks just like a flutz to me.
    http://youtu.be/qKVVFyB8w94?t=4m53s
    She clearly starts on an outside edge and turns into an inside edge as she's picking in. I know that she intends to do a flip there, but it doesn't mean I have to like the technique.
    But that is the technique of a flip: the jump takes off from the back inside edge.

    I'm not picking at you, I'm just curious as to why you don't like the technique. Is it b/c you prefer the three-turn entrance instead of a mohawk? Just curious...

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    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    But that is the technique of a flip: the jump takes off from the back inside edge.

    I'm not picking at you, I'm just curious as to why you don't like the technique. Is it b/c you prefer the three-turn entrance instead of a mohawk? Just curious...
    It's the fact that she spends so much of the jump set up on an outside edge and then turns in at the last second. It feels like she doesn't have enough control of her edge. Basically, I would prefer it if she got to the inside edge then picked in instead of getting to the inside edge while she is picking in.
    Last edited by Macassar88; 03-26-2012 at 01:23 PM.

  14. #14
    mylastduchess
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Here's her lutz and salchow attempts while with TAT (not including non ISU events, ie. Japan Open or Japanese Nationals):

    2008-2009
    TEB: SP (doubled lutz with "!" call, all -3 GOEs), LP (no lutz, fall on sal)
    NHK: SP (clean lutz), LP (no lutz, clean sal )
    Final: SP (clean lutz), LP (clean sal, no lutz)
    4CC: SP (doubled lutz, all -3 GOEs), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    Worlds: (doubled lutz with "!" call, all but one -3 GOEs), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    WTT: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)

    2009-2010
    TEB: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    COR: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    4CC: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    Olys: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)
    Worlds: SP (no lutz), LP (no lutz, no sal)


    So under TAT, Mao managed 2 clean lutzes and 2 clean salchows in two whole seasons. IMO those stats can't be seen as remotely consistent or valid enough to give more credit to TAT for fixing any of Mao's jumps. If anything abandoning both the lutz and the salchow for an entire season is probably why Mao never got them consistent. Her lutz was on its way to getting better before they dropped it; and b/c her salchow was too iffy, they switched it to a 3t and never put it back in and it's now twice as hard for her to get it back.

    I think TAT has her merits but I really didn't like her coaching Mao at all.
    Okay lets see the comparison:

    Sato: 3Lutz = 0, Clean 3Sal = 1 (2 if you count an obviously underrotated one)


    First of all Mao did a beautiful 3Sal at worlds and your counting a year where they didn't try it at all. still she had landed more 3 Sal and clean 3 Lutzes during the same period as training under Sato. with 2 3A in her program there was no space for a Sal. Remember Mao is supposed to have had a year sacrificed to get a Lutz and her Sal but there is simply nothing there to show for, even worse her Loop is getting increasingly iffy. I didn't like Tat's choreography of Mao's program either but atleast that job can be easily given to someone else.
    Last edited by mylastduchess; 03-26-2012 at 01:39 PM.

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    I am not sure if Mao has found her groove as a senior skater. She seems to be trying to relearn her technique but she loses some of her natural giftings - knees and flow. TAT seemed to destroy the lyrical quality of Mao, Sato - I am not sure what to make ofhim. The results and the skating is rather blah - nice blah but not wow - yet.

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