Adam Rippon Needs Gracie Gold's Coach

johnny 80 · Apr 3, 2012

Spun Silver said:
Funny, that sounds just like Alissa. Is that Yuka & Jason's formula or something? (I realize it doesn't apply to Jeremy.)

ETA:

This is not how I remember the conversations here. There was a lot of respect and support for Brian. Not that there was much anti-Yu Na sentiment or anything, but she never explained her decision so there was a lot of puzzlement about her dumping him after winning the OGM. Just my recollection, FWIW.

Orser is not a Factor, That is why people are confused.

If you understand their relationships, you should know David Wilson, the choreographer, has always been the hidden center of the issue.

''Orser's students'' ,, They come to Cricket Club not because of Orser, but, David.
Orser just doesn't cut or change their choreography not like Russian coaches.
His coaching style is , as you guys know, laissez-faire.

Yuna went to Cricket club to get her choreography from David at the first time.
Yuna-David relations didn't stop, Though she changed the coach.
David still choreographs her all shows.

That explains why Yuna and Adam was lingering in the cricket,after they fired Orser. Yuna was thrown out of the club by pissed-Orser.
And Adam changed choreographer, and finally left the club.

David has been Cynthia Phaneuf's choreographer since novice. and she changed the coach lately.To Whom?

Javier, Ellen G... Who is their Choreographer?

As you know, Orser's students didn't advance technically.
Gao's 2A and Adam's 3A, etc.

Use your common sense, Who is gonna trust an unexperienced coach? Figure skating is not that easy sport.

Wilson is a shy person, so he doesn't show himself in K&C.
not like Lori or Camerlengo.

Even in Olymics, he wasn't in K&C, though the best chance to advertise.

But, he earned Trust from his students.

Under COP, The role of choreographer will become more and more important.

PJ Kwong interviwed with not Orser but Wilson for a long time right after Olympics..

cooper · Apr 3, 2012

Spun Silver said:
This is not how I remember the conversations here. There was a lot of respect and support for Brian. Not that there was much anti-Yu Na sentiment or anything, but she never explained her decision so there was a lot of puzzlement about her dumping him after winning the OGM. Just my recollection, FWIW.

until now I still don't understand why Yuna should explain her decision to leave Brian...she doesn't owe the public to explain what supposed to be private. other skaters who leave their coaches don't even explain why. why singled her out?

as for adam, i don't think the coach is the problem.

johnny 80 · Apr 4, 2012

The choreography is more important especially for world-class athletes.

I always think that Patrick Chan is one of the greatest skaters of history of figure skating..

His basic skills, deep edges, speed and jumping ability..

but , at the same time I wonder why Lori not attend to his choreography more.

and, his SP was used for two years!!!

You guys know (at this worlds) the power of choreography.

like Weaver/Poje, Daisuke Takahashi , Volosozhar Trankov, Carolina Kostner. etc.

I hope Chan'll make great masterpieces with the help of his choreographer.

He should be remembered by his masterpieces like Casablanca reminds us of Kurt Browning,Winter and MIIM,Yagudin...

Orange Cat · Apr 4, 2012

johnny 80 said:
The choreography is more important especially for world-class athletes.

...

You guys know (at this worlds) the power of choreography.

like Weaver/Poje, Daisuke Takahashi , Volosozhar Trankov, Carolina Kostner. etc.

I wouldn't put V/T in the same category as W/P, Kostner or Dai! Especially not Dai :love:

Savchenko and Svolkowy, even Kavaguti and Smirnov, they've got excellently choreographed programs... but V/T seem to me to be pretty predictable and unexciting, choreographically speaking.

Back to the topic... I think Adam Rippon needs Evan Lysacek/Patrick Chan/Dai's mental toughness and discipline more than another coaching change. (Better choreography might be nice, too, though, I wasn't thrilled by either of his programs this year).

While I do understand the argument that it might be harder for Yuka and Jason's students because they don't train with a 'workhorse' skater, I think it's also a difficult situation, because the coach/skater relationship is so important, and certain sorts of coaches attract certain sorts of skaters. When their personalities are different it doesn't seem to work, or if it does, it doesn't seem to work for very long. Just my thoughts, though

CAS · Apr 4, 2012

Spun Silver said:
Funny, that sounds just like Alissa. Is that Yuka & Jason's formula or something? (I realize it doesn't apply to Jeremy.)

ETA:

This is not how I remember the conversations here. There was a lot of respect and support for Brian. Not that there was much anti-Yu Na sentiment or anything, but she never explained her decision so there was a lot of puzzlement about her dumping him after winning the OGM. Just my recollection, FWIW.

I meant more the speculation about why Adam left Orser. The only reason I brought YuNa into it was because they happened close together so there was talk about what Brian was doing wrong when he loses two in a row. I don't think anyone really cares anymore why YuNa left? Yes a lot of people were supportive but a lot of people spent much time analysing K&C behaviour and the coldness of Brian toward Adam. I'm just wondering in light of this thread and the comment I quoted whether some of the frustration and the main problem was the issue of off ice training. And that could have lead to tension between the two as I also get the impression when Brian speaks about Javier that Brian is trying to meet him halfway in this conditioning regime to steer him instead of demanding him. Perhaps this is a lesson Brian has learned from his recent experiences and now Adam needs to learn from his experiences and maybe change his own ideas.

mskater93 · Apr 4, 2012

silverlake22 said:
Yes but that was his one bad competition of the season, he had a great JGP season, won both his events and then bronze at the final, then he was really impressive at JW, the score edged Adam on the SB list and that was with one less element, not to mention scores at junior events are usually always quite a bit lower compared to senior events (we saw this with Denis Ten, his FS at JW scored 134 and then at Worlds a few weeks later he got 153 for a program of similar quality). And really it was just his SP at nationals that was so bad, his FS wasn't great but his TES was 69+, he just got hosed on PCS from skating in the 2nd warmup, and further the marks for that program were close to what a lot of skaters in the penultimate and ultimate warmup put up WITH the benefit of late warmup PCS (Jason, Max, and Keegan scored just a point or two higher for the FS). Considering every other SP he skated this season was clean and beautiful and scored ~75, I think after his great showing at JW he should have at least been considered for the Worlds spot. You're right that Miner was the more logical choice, BUT if the USFS were interested in promoting skaters for Sochi, they should have considered sending Farris to Worlds, after that high at JW, and due to move up to the GP next season? It would have been great to see him out there.

Abbott is turning 27 and Adam is 22 and still does not have a stable 3a. Farris is 17 and has all the goods, he is probably the best hope for American men in Sochi at this point and you think the USFS would recognize that and try to promote him, but instead they focus on promoting aging headcase Abbott, triple axel-challenged Rippon, and triple axel-less Brown. And don't even get me started on Czisny... Basically, the crap the USFS judges pull at Nationals is getting ridiculous. Czisny and Rippon's marks were a joke, and Jason Brown receiving 10 more PCS points than Farris in the FS, where Brown actually made MORE errors, was proven ridiculous at JW a month later, when in both SP and FS Josh and Jason earned virtually the same PCS in both programs (marks that were much higher than what Josh received at Nationals, and lower than what Jason received there - even with his 3 fall FS), and Josh went on to beat Jason by 7 points. Erm, what's the point of holding up Jason Brown at Nationals and promoting him as the next big thing when he has no 3a and went on to get beaten by the 16th place finisher at Nationals who the USFS clearly thinks is nothing special judging from his PCS marks at Nationals at a big international event like JW? It just makes them look stupid. Josh missed out on beating phenom Han Yan for the JW title by less than half a point, and the USFS clearly thinks he's chopped liver and that Adam Rippon and Alissa Czisny are all that, and that Jason Brown without a 3a is 10 PCS points in the FS better than this kid. It's silly, and again also silly that they promote Rippon as being so much better than Miner when Miner has had better international results this whole season, and for all this crap that Adam is more "artistic" than Ross and that his PCS are so much better, look at international protocols from this season and you will see they receive VERY similar PCS scores. The USFS seems to underestimate the importance of jumps, until Rippon and Brown get solid triple axels, the international judges are going to be viewing Miner and Farris as being better, even if they DO manage to get solid triple axels, Miner and Farris might still be better in the eyes of the international judges. USFS promotion and judging is just silly tbh.

Yes, and we saw what sending a guy who did well on the junior circuit in the fall does, too, with Dornbush the previous year. He WON the JGPF (as opposed to fading in the LP and finishing 3rd) and actually handled the pressure at Nationals for a top 2 finish. Then he finished, what, 10th at Worlds? 9th? And then went on to have a crap-tacular follow-on season. Clearly Farris was NOT ready for the pressure of Senior competition if he blew his SP at Nationals, why pile on the pressure?

silverlake22 · Apr 4, 2012

mskater93 said:
Yes, and we saw what sending a guy who did well on the junior circuit in the fall does, too, with Dornbush the previous year. He WON the JGPF (as opposed to fading in the LP and finishing 3rd) and actually handled the pressure at Nationals for a top 2 finish. Then he finished, what, 10th at Worlds? 9th? And then went on to have a crap-tacular follow-on season. Clearly Farris was NOT ready for the pressure of Senior competition if he blew his SP at Nationals, why pile on the pressure?

Ricky was the highest placing finisher at Worlds though, he skated really well, and yes he won the JGPF, but he was 4th in one of his events before it with a score of 166...far lower than the 197 Josh got at Nationals, going to Worlds and being the top placing American there and making the top 10 was GOOD for Ricky's career. And this season he was fine during the GP, not great but not craptacular like you suggest. He bombed the SP at Nationals then bombed 4CC, but it wasn't like his whole season was a disaster.

And again, it's the principle of it all. Ricky's 9th place at Worlds was considered a GOOD finish for an up-and-comer just out of juniors. Had Abbott gone and placed 9th people would be complaining about how he underperformed. By sending Ricky, and even Ross who finished in 11th, USFSA saved themselves of "Jeremy Abbott is such a headcase" smack talk, and the trip to Worlds, despite the mediocre placement, was especially helpful for Ross who really stepped it up this season and won a bunch of medals as a result, even Ricky had a solid GP season and I'm sure the scores and placements they earned had something to do with getting to go to Worlds last season. The team last year didn't get 3 spots back, but the two young members did well and showed that they could hang with the big guys already, so that was encouraging that either could be contenders in the future. For example, Song finishing 14th with all his quads this year was a bit of a reality check - his TES is great, but he really needs to work on PCS to be competitive. But Ricky and Ross were pretty well received at Worlds and got good marks.

And anyways there was pressure on Josh at JW - I'm sure his being sent was a tough decision to make with his placement at Nationals being what it was, he could have been reasonably passed over in favor of Phillip Warren and it was likely a tough call. I'm sure he wanted to prove to everyone his Nationals was just a fluke, and sure enough he did with the way he skated at JW, he showed that when he skates up to his potential, he is better than Jason Brown and Denis Ten and on par with Han Yan. I'm sure there would have been a lot of "Philip should have been sent instead" talk had Farris not skated well at JW. I'm not saying he should have been named to Worlds after Nationals, certainly not, he was far from his best there. But after the results of 4CC, JW, and Challenge Cup were all in, it would have made sense to at least consider him, based on his JW marks, if there was a test skate to be held to determine who should go to Worlds.

Jammers · Apr 4, 2012

All this will be mute when Jason Brown gets his 3axel.

Mrs. P · Apr 4, 2012

silverlake22 said:
Ricky was the highest placing finisher at Worlds though, he skated really well, and yes he won the JGPF, but he was 4th in one of his events before it with a score of 166...far lower than the 197 Josh got at Nationals, going to Worlds and being the top placing American there and making the top 10 was GOOD for Ricky's career. And this season he was fine during the GP, not great but not craptacular like you suggest. He bombed the SP at Nationals then bombed 4CC, but it wasn't like his whole season was a disaster.

And again, it's the principle of it all. Ricky's 9th place at Worlds was considered a GOOD finish for an up-and-comer just out of juniors. Had Abbott gone and placed 9th people would be complaining about how he underperformed. By sending Ricky, and even Ross who finished in 11th, USFSA saved themselves of "Jeremy Abbott is such a headcase" smack talk, and the trip to Worlds, despite the mediocre placement, was especially helpful for Ross who really stepped it up this season and won a bunch of medals as a result, even Ricky had a solid GP season and I'm sure the scores and placements they earned had something to do with getting to go to Worlds last season. The team last year didn't get 3 spots back, but the two young members did well and showed that they could hang with the big guys already, so that was encouraging that either could be contenders in the future. For example, Song finishing 14th with all his quads this year was a bit of a reality check - his TES is great, but he really needs to work on PCS to be competitive. But Ricky and Ross were pretty well received at Worlds and got good marks.

And anyways there was pressure on Josh at JW - I'm sure his being sent was a tough decision to make with his placement at Nationals being what it was, he could have been reasonably passed over in favor of Phillip Warren and it was likely a tough call. I'm sure he wanted to prove to everyone his Nationals was just a fluke, and sure enough he did with the way he skated at JW, he showed that when he skates up to his potential, he is better than Jason Brown and Denis Ten and on par with Han Yan. I'm sure there would have been a lot of "Philip should have been sent instead" talk had Farris not skated well at JW. I'm not saying he should have been named to Worlds after Nationals, certainly not, he was far from his best there. But after the results of 4CC, JW, and Challenge Cup were all in, it would have made sense to at least consider him, based on his JW marks, if there was a test skate to be held to determine who should go to Worlds.

Considering Josh Farris based on JW would be just as ridiculous as considering Gracie Gold based on JW. Neither skater has skated a senior international program. And perhaps Josh's Nationals performance was a fluke, but since he hasn't done anything else in seniors, there's no way to determine that it's a fluke in his senior skating efforts. And the fact is fluke or not, he still was 16th at Nationals. I would consider Armin and Miner first, since they have past senior international efforts under their belt.

Richard Dornbush earned his spot in Worlds last year by winning the free skate and getting the silver medal.

Given Josh's progress, I'm confident he will get a Worlds spot someday, probably even next season, but 2012 Worlds wasn't his time.

mskater93 · Apr 4, 2012

Thanks, Mrs. P - that was the point I was trying to make. Let's let the skaters mature at their proper rate and not force them into something they aren't ready for. Farris' rate this year was at the Junior International level as was Gold's.

No one really makes that big a deal about who gets Junior events if at least one person medals. If Farris had been lower and Brown still on the podium, no one would have blinked.

My point about Dornbush - did he really fare all that well on the GP circuit? Medal? Make the final? You'd think someone who was top 10 in the world the previous year would at least squeak out a bronze at one or both their events. 4th in a "meh" group at SA isn't all that great. He seemed to be feeling some pressure of being the "leading man" since Bradley retired as he was the silver medalist. He fared very poorly at Nationals and again at 4C after having a "meh" fall. I thought last season Dornbush should have finished his season at JWs and Abbott sent to Worlds in his place.

FWIW, I thought Miner made a strong case for the second spot at Nationals this year.

Dragonlady · Apr 4, 2012

Jammers said:
All this will be mute when Jason Brown gets his 3axel.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Watching Jason, I don't think his 2A is big enough or strong enough for him to turn it into a triple. I hope I'm wrong, but that 2A is what keeps me from jumping on the Jason Brown bandwagon. I open to buying a ticket if and when he starts landing a reliable 3A but not before.

dorispulaski · Apr 4, 2012

Like Ross Miner, he may require significant work in the gym to get a consistent, big 3A. Ross's was a bit iffy when he made his senior debut on the GP-between the GP and last year's nationals he really hit the gym, and the results speak for themselves. He now has a really good 3A.

That's why Rippon needs to do the work in the gym.

It may take Jason another year. Or he may never get there

But I hope it's this year!

mskater93 · Apr 4, 2012

Dragonlady said:
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Watching Jason, I don't think his 2A is big enough or strong enough for him to turn it into a triple. I hope I'm wrong, but that 2A is what keeps me from jumping on the Jason Brown bandwagon. I open to buying a ticket if and when he starts landing a reliable 3A but not before.

His 2A has improve a great deal over the last 12-18 months and I think he will be helped by starting to fill out and get stronger. He's definitely a hard worker, even off ice, as evidenced by the fact he won the STARS award last year for off ice training.

silverlake22 · Apr 4, 2012

Jammers said:
All this will be mute when Jason Brown gets his 3axel.

That's a big if and I still think Josh might be better even if Jason does get a 3a. Realistically he'll need a 3a and a quad to be competitive anyways, and who knows how long that could take. Josh has had a 3a for years and been doing quads in training for over a year now. And I think his skating is more universally appealing, if that makes sense. His style is more classical and I think just about anyone can appreciate his posture and lines and natural jumping style, whereas Jason's style seems to wow some and leave others unimpressed. Plus, Josh's skating is more masculine, and already he has built up quite the female fanbase due to his looks and skating accomplishments, and as much as I hate to say that makes a difference in skating...it really does. I don't think Joubert or Lysacek would have done so well in their skating careers if they weren't so handsome. Jason is more like a Johnny Weir and Johnny despite being an exquisite skater with a unique style did not have as impressive a career resume as some of the other skaters whose skating could be considered more "boring". I think both boys are very talented and each has his own unique strength, but I think for now, Joshua is ahead of Jason, and I think it will stay that way for a couple more seasons likely, unless Jason comes out with a 3a and 4t very soon and/or Joshua regresses.

Also Jason looks like he works out in the gym a lot. He is quite muscular. I wonder if the 3a struggles are something more due to his body build. He seems to have more mass in his lower body and be narrower through the shoulders. Usually, the best jumpers have broad shoulders. Maybe it's just a matter of puberty but Jason doesn't look painfully thin to me in the way that Adam Rippon does.

Becki · Apr 4, 2012

I've seen Adam Rippon in person, he is not as painfully thin as he appears on TV and videos. His arms are quite muscular, but he is quite slim.

mskater93 · Apr 5, 2012

Jason is a skater best appreciated in person. Without seeing him in person, you don't "feel" his magnetism. Once you've seen him in person, you KNOW what he's projecting and can appreciate him more. His style is not all that feminine, really, it's more flowing and elegant.

Violet Bliss · Apr 7, 2012

Jason's moves and choreography are interesting and sometimes innovative and he has nice flow, but I don't find him elegant at all, something to do with his not only pivoting at his hips but his butt sticking out more than others with similar postures. With his slender build he might join the group of quadsters like Plushenko, Reynolds, and Brezina but is still struggling with his 3A due to lack of power.

silverlake is right that Jason is far from universally appealing, as some foreign forums clearly indicate.

ctcl · Apr 8, 2012

I think Alex is the best coach in the state of IL. Yes he is a little nuts. If he sees you working hard the he will work with you & you will get the jumps.I think Alex is better than the so called great coaches.

silverlake22 · Apr 9, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
Jason's moves and choreography are interesting and sometimes innovative and he has nice flow, but I don't find him elegant at all, something to do with his not only pivoting at his hips but his butt sticking out more than others with similar postures. With his slender build he might join the group of quadsters like Plushenko, Reynolds, and Brezina but is still struggling with his 3A due to lack of power.

silverlake is right that Jason is far from universally appealing, as some foreign forums clearly indicate.

Thanks

. Yeah, I just don't really understand all the Jason hype. Well, I mean, in a sense I do, he is very talented and certainly has an interesting style and is a great performer, but with no 3a at 17, I'm surprised so many people are convinced he is the next big thing. I mean, I think he could become the next big thing when/if he gets the 3a and a quad, but we don't know when/if that will happen so right now, I'm a little puzzled that Jason Brown is the talk of the boards. I honestly think Denis Ten should have beaten him at Junior Worlds (please don't hate me for saying that, but D10 did have a LOT more content and it wasn't like he made that many mistakes...). I think I'd have more respect for Jason if he'd just start trying the 3a, even if he splats all over the place on it. Got to start somewhere. Meanwhile I think Farris has great prospects for the future and is clearly ahead of Jason at this point, but I seem to be in the minority, as most seem to think of Josh as an afterthought to Jason. With the state of men's figure skating as it is, I think Josh could feasibly make the World team as early as next season, to me he is already on par with the likes of Miner, Dornbush when they are "on" and superior to Rippon, Mahbanoozadeh due to the strength of his 3a. And if he continues to improve at such a rate, he could give Abbott a real fright if Abbott still can't get his head together. Idk. There is a big window of opportunity right now with Jeremy getting older and still being a headcase, and no one else really proving themselves as the solid number 2 (or number 1) male skater in the US. There's a lot of room for youngsters to walk through and make a statement, my money is on Josh or Max Aaron, but it could be Jason if he can up his tech, or maybe even Keegan if he can stop bombing his FS. Ricky is talented and had success with the 4t this season, but he needs to refind the consistency he had last season if he wants to secure that spot, Ross is a good competitor but I think moving forward a lot will depend on how his quads are coming along. Adam I think is done unless he can have an overhaul on his technique, which maybe there is still time for.

Jaana · Apr 9, 2012

I think the long hesitation before Rippon´s triple axel is scary, and I start feeling scary as I see that the guy seems to be afraid of the jump. Triple axel should be jumped the way Ilia Kulik did during his eligible career (it should be effortless = without long hesitation):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JaYkoTMeZU Ilia Kulik 17 years old (Europeans 1995)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9KjmsDW4BA Worlds (Worlds 1996) where Ilia had the start number 2 and still won the sp competition.

My favourite Ilia Kulik freeskate (from 1996 Centennial on Ice):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojGVgMLOSzw where he jumps a triple axel late in the programme. Adam Rippon, look at these performances and learn!!!

Adam Rippon Needs Gracie Gold's Coach

johnny 80

Match Penalty

cooper

johnny 80

Match Penalty

Orange Cat

CAS

mskater93

silverlake22

Jammers

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

mskater93

Dragonlady

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

mskater93

silverlake22

Becki

mskater93

Violet Bliss

ctcl

silverlake22

Jaana

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