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Thread: Men's PCS at Worlds.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    There was a much discussed opinion piece after the 2010 Olympics by a professional dancer/dance critic/professor of dance who, I believe, was artist in residence at the University of Michigan at the time. She was flabbergasted that Yuna Kim won the competition over Mao Asada. Asada was the better dancer, and this artist gave a lengthy technical evaluation to support her opinion.

    What the professor did not understand was that although Asada was the better dancer, Kim was the better skater. This was a skating competition.
    I think the answer to your first question is that, indeed, components like interpretation and choreography are evaluated differently in skating than in dance. Despite Dick Button there is no provision in the CoP for pointing your toes or turning out your knee, and in singles I do not think that the judges care very much whether your tango moves are authentic tango when tango music is playing.

    As for whether this disconnect alienates audiences, I don't see why it should. True, professional dancers might snicker to see a skater struggle to drag her leg up into a Biellmann position. But the general audience is more moved by grand music and pretty positions. General audiences liked to hear Liberace tickling the ivories to old show tunes as much as they do a renowned concert pianist interpreting Brahmes.
    There is a saying, "Separated by professions is like divided by a mountain."

    I respect and admire gkelly, who knows so much about figure skating but still presents herself as humble as she is! Those who don't know much about figure skating probably should refrain themselves a little bit on critisizing with untrained eyes, especially with biased views.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-09-2012 at 08:25 AM.

  2. #17
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    If the performance doesn't synchronize with the music, the brain either throws the music into the background or experiences incompatibility that stimulates negative reactions. As you said, "the general audience is more moved by grand music"; that is to say, enjoying the music is part of the fun and therefore it is not easy for the audience to throw the music into the background. So here comes my argument: Skating to the music is a rather universal criterion in assessing the artistry of a figure skating performance.
    I think you've put your finger on what is wrong with this performance by Patrick Chan. In the second half of the program we have to fight to reconcile the movement on the ice with the music. After a while we give up and, as you say, push the music into the background.

    Here is Michelle Kwan interpreting the same music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfluAux0Sf0

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think you've put your finger on what is wrong with this performance by Patrick Chan. In the second half of the program we have to fight to reconcile the movement on the ice with the music. After a while we give up and, as you say, push the music into the background.
    Don't forget that Patrick has gotten a -1 deduction on that already. That's more than 10% of his IN score. I'm not saying that I agree with what the judges gave to Patrick on IN in this particular competition. But I think there is a reasonable benefit of doubt. Patrick, as great as he is, might have gotten a few 10s in IN should he have not made such mistakes. From that perception, the judges might be thinking that he has already gotten enough deductions from his mistakes.

    Honestly, I think Takahashi might have already used up all he is capable in increasing his PCS. In another word, he might have reached or nearly reached his PCS potential. In order to raise up his scoring, Takahashi has to increase his technical difficulty which he's already been planning to do next season.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-09-2012 at 12:21 AM.

  4. #19
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    ^ To me the question is not deductions for his mistakes. It is, how well did he interpret the music, according to the ISUs criteria for that component. In this performance (setting aside what we all know he is capable of), I do not see how his performance warranted 9.00 to 9.50 almost across the board. It seemed like he was fighting the music most of the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But the general audience is more moved by grand music and pretty positions.
    Musicality and postures, hm, are they equally universal in aesthetic appreciation? Studies in neuroaesthetics have suggested that the brain processes them differently. Musicality is processed in a configural manner through the dorsal visual system and the premotor cortex and by activating sensoriomotor representations, whereas postures are processed in a featural way through the ventral visual processing stream including the extrastriate body area. Some naughty researchers purposely interfered the dorsal pathway of some subjects and the ventral pathway of the others with transcranial magnetic stimulation to determine their impacts on aesthetic appreciation for dance performances. The result showed that the dorsal pathway (the configural aspects like musicality) has a stronger effect than the ventral pathway (the featural aspects like postures). It explains why some dance experts or choreographers (e.g., Blades of Passion) who are greatly impressed by Yuzuru Hanyu's musicality are willing to forgive his less than perfect postures. I didn't notice Chan's "starfish hands" or the lack thereof until some people pointed out. And the pointed toes, like women's high heels, are some superstimuli that serve to arouse an acquired taste.

    Back to Yuzuru, I think he demonstrated outstanding musicality in his LP--He lived in the music that he was skating to. His fall was abrupt--abrupt in a sense that it was almost like someone shook me out of a dream. I was totally drawn to his performance as if in a dream.

    Of course, what made Michelle Kwan the goddess of figure skating is her perfect combination of musicality and postures. Her artistry has some universal truth in it.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 04-09-2012 at 09:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ To me the question is not deductions for his mistakes. It is, how well did he interpret the music, according to the ISUs criteria for that component. In this performance (setting aside what we all know he is capable of), I do not see how his performance warranted 9.00 to 9.50 almost across the board. It seemed like he was fighting the music most of the way.
    I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

    Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

    Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.
    Actually he was NOT behind the music until the 2nd 3Lz. He waited a bit longer to do the jump that all the troubles began.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Actually he was NOT behind the music until the 2nd 3Lz. He waited a bit longer to do the jump that all the troubles began.
    True. That was about a minute left till the end. Before that jump, he was on time. Even with the little delay in movement, I think his final sequance was still looking good with the music.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 04-09-2012 at 01:30 PM.

  9. #24
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    I don't know... For a 10 I want Baryshnikov. Or at least Torvill and Dean.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-09-2012 at 12:00 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

    Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.
    I have to say that I largely agree with you - I love as in over the top really truly love Dai's LP; and I completely enjoyed it at Worlds (via internet); but I felt immediately that he had 'lacked' something in it - stripped it or perhaps didn't hit his step levels...something. I have not yet rewatched, but based on my memory this sounds accurate to me regarding Dai's performance. I agree with most of what you said about Patrick, but I do think that missing the sequence and being behind the music by then or then really impacted my overall impression of his interpretation. I agree he was really great before that - but I have to say that i really, really reacted negatively to his marks...I could really see Dai and Chan tied on this mark.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups.
    I disagree. Although Daisuke was quite hesitant prior to the 4T (and it showed), the rest of Daisuke's jumps and their set-ups are generally very well-integrated and in-sync with the music. For some examples, I'm thinking of:

    -the 3F: the repeated circular turns immediately prior to the final 3F reflect the repeated B-notes in the climax up to the final choreo step sequence
    -the 3A-3T: the set-up to the jump mirrors the build-up in the intensity of the music, and Daisuke hits both the 3A and 3T (presumably the climax of the element) exactly on beat with the two F-sharp notes (the climax of that particular phrase of music)
    -the 3Lo: in the set-up to the jump, Daisuke does that bit of arm choreography, raises his leg, and glances at the judges to the notes of the acciaccatura (or is it a mordent? I can never remember what those are called), and then almost immediately goes into the 3Lo right on beat (he lands exactly on the G note), then does those quick small steps as a transition out of the jump (not sure what they're called) exactly to the beat of the quick B-D-B-E-Fsharp notes

    I have also been trained in music for many years (in piano, similar to skatinginbc) and it seems pretty obvious to me how Daisuke's jumps and their set-ups are in sync with his music. If I have more time, I can do a more extensive and complete write-up/analysis if anyone is interested.
    Last edited by evangeline; 04-09-2012 at 01:24 PM.

  12. #27
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    Does anyone think Patrick's new ex number deserves a 10 for IN? I feel he is the one that plays the piano when I watch the program.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

    Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.
    The usual Chan apologist's unbiased opinion. Geez.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Does anyone think Patrick's new ex number deserves a 10 for IN? I feel he is the one that plays the piano when I watch the program.
    Of course! I'd give Patrick's this ex number 10 on PE, CH, and IN.

    Patrick's skating is like red wine. I've gotten this impression from this season. You can't gulp down the whole glass of wine in hurry. Or you won't taste much of it. It's better to sip it slowly and take your time. The second time you watch it, you might develop new feelings and new appreciations that you didn't have the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Of course! I'd give Patrick's this ex number 10 on PE, CH, and IN.

    Patrick's skating is like red wine. I've gotten this impression from this season. You can't gulp down the whole glass of wine in hurry. Or you won't taste much of it. It's better to sip it slowly and take your time. The second time you watch it, you might develop new feelings and new appreciations that you didn't have the first time.
    But seriously, it's not going to get a 10 because of the level of difficulty of program. Last year a perfect Take Five received lower PCS than a flawed Phantom in all five departments. Why? Because it's an easier program. The judegs had to take that factor into account.

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