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Thread: Men's PCS at Worlds.

  1. #46
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Well everyone experiences some kind of tragedy, but I did say "real tragedy". As in something that forces a person to truly suffer. I rarely feel that Chan understands the entire scope of some of the music he skates to. Or at least he doesn't have the ability to express it.

  2. #47
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    My apologies in advance for my impoliteness to interrupt you guys, but I am getting tired of Mens-related threads turning to 'a Dai who and a Patrick who' discussion, or 'which is better or the best' discussion...

    Both are gerat skaters with strengths and weaknesses in their own way. And the good news for every skating fans is that they are not finished yet; which means both keeps progressing as a skater and a person, and we get to see their gorgeous skates many times until Sochi Olympics. For that matter, I do not think Patrick should get 10 in PCS for his non-perfect skates at this Worlds, nor Dai in the near future (even if he could do that), becasue they still have some room to improve in two years from now. Besides I do not want either of them to retire before Sochi season.

    I would appreciate if someone change the title of this thread to 'Patrick & Dai PCS at Worlds', please?..so that I do not have to open this particular thread for new posts.

    As long as the title remains as 'Men's PCS at Worlds', I would rather want and expect to see opinions on other skaters, too; e.g. why did Artur outscore Takahiko in PCS?, which is just a mystery to me.

    Sorry for interrupting you guys in the middle of battling.
    Okay I shut up now. Go ahead with your discussion as you wish...

  3. #48
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I totally agree with you, deedee1.

    Everytime when I read this kind of threads, I hope people will stop using Daisuke to prove the greatness of Patrick Chan or the fault of COP system. Please leave him in peace.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing787 View Post
    Just remember only the judges' opinion counts. Good night.
    Yeah, those judges who hide themselves in anonymity.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    A joke. What he does on ice comes nowhere near to expressing the lifetime of soul in the music. He is a sheltered kid who has never had to endure any real tragedy in life. He is extraordinarily gifted in many ways but this is the least of them.
    Or, he just doesn't care about others. This statement really surprised me. Are all elite skaters as sheltered as him?

    [url]http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/opinion/2011/12/exclusive-patrick-chan-explains-his-comments-about-canada.html[/url]
    "I had no idea until you said it right now that there are accusations of human rights violations against China."

  6. #51
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeko666
    Or, he just doesn't care about others. This statement really surprised me. Are all elite skaters as sheltered as him?

    [url]http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskati...ut-canada.html[/url]
    "I had no idea until you said it right now that there are accusations of human rights violations against China."
    Even if he grew up very sheltered, that doesn't mean he doesn't care for others.
    I think Chan got enough negativ feedback regarding what he said about china, being underappreciated in Canada and what not. There's really nothing bad about being a little naive sometimes, you never know how his parents talk about their home country and how he experienced China when he was there.

    Everyone is bound to live through something hurtful someday, Chan will have had his share of harder trouble too. I'm at the same point of view that he doesn't deserve 10 in interpretation, no matter what explanations I read so far, but there's no need to take it to a personal level.

    And personal tragedys don't necessarily enable you to portrait feelings better to other people. It's depending on the individual character... although I feel his own tragedy did help Hanyu in his growth performance-wise, for example.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Even if he grew up very sheltered, that doesn't mean he doesn't care for others.
    I think Chan got enough negativ feedback regarding what he said about china, being underappreciated in Canada and what not. There's really nothing bad about being a little naive sometimes, you never know how his parents talk about their home country and how he experienced China when he was there.
    His parents are from Hong Kong, which was a British colony back then, not from the the People's Republic of China, the communist country. Why do you think they left Hong Kong before it was returned to China?

  8. #53
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    Seeing those same old nitpicking and whining and complains related with Chan and scoring in this thread and all over the board almost every day - I never believe that all those comments are from the love of this sports or being constructive criticism -, I just want Chan to be tougher with thicker skin. He should be as a champion. I want to say, "Be strong, man. Believe in yourself!"

    Well, I know what I am saying is not exactly about Men's PCS at Worlds - sorry, so what? - and this is not Chan's fan thread.

    Most of us are complete strangers to Chan or other skaters and strangers to each other. Actually, all those disrespectful things told by armchair judges are not so inspiring or informative for anything.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Patrick, as great as he is, might have gotten a few 10s in IN should he have not made such mistakes.
    Which is already proposterous as even a clean Chan should be nowhere near a 10 in either interpretation or performance.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by carignan View Post
    I totally agree with you, deedee1.

    Everytime when I read this kind of threads, I hope people will stop using Daisuke to prove the greatness of Patrick Chan or the fault of COP system. Please leave him in peace.
    Thanks carignan. Yeah, I know...

    Both are great skaters. While demonstrating what CoP rules demand and collecting huge points, they are capable to show us more than that. But it does not necessarily mean every skater should be packaged just like Patrick or Dai.

    Just imagine a championship competition where there are 6 Patricks in the final group, and a Patrick who makes the least mistakes is to win. I donot want to speculate which Patrick is btter; a Patrick with 2 clean quads but a fal on 3A, or a Patrick with lovely 3A but a fluke fall on step seq. Or, there are 6 Daisukes, and a Daisuke who is the most sensual that night is to win. (I can hear an outcry from his fans who love 'Dai the cutey' ) Or, how about 3 Evgeni and 3 Evans going head-to-head again. Which one of an Evgeni or Evan is to win, I am sure this board will crash in a second or two.

    One thing I value and appreciate CoP system is that it encourages skaters to improve other areas besides big tricks, and educates them to understand they can still collect decent points thru superior skating skills, spins, spirals and/or steps and enables them to stay competitive at top level without a quad.

    For instance, Jeffrey Buttle at 2008 Worlds, who showed us his gorgeous skates, was the worthy Champion for me. I did not care whether he went for quads or not, and many agree with that, right? Evan Lysacek at 2009 Worlds is the same. (Evan at 2010 Vancouver is I donot know, though...) And how many of us loved Misha Ge's step sequances, who did not land even one 3A. Or how many of us enjoyed Christopher Caluza's perfect skates with no 3A/quad?

    CoP also helped skaters to stay eligible longer than before. We did not see many veteran skaters to retire every four years right after Olympics anymore, did we?

    Under the old system before CoP, Dai would have decided to retire upon his knee injury, because he might have been unsure whether he ever could get back his 3A or quad in time for the Olympics and would have realized he had zero chance to get a medal at Vancouver. The old system simply did not allow him to compete at the top level without quads for three years.

    Patrick is the Champion at 2012 Worlds; he skated the best on the nights of the biggest event of the year. He won it fair and square. No one denies that.
    But figure skating is not a sport for its fans that only a win (or not) matters, at least for me.
    So, yes, I agree with you: please leave other skaters in peace.
    Last edited by deedee1; 04-10-2012 at 09:45 AM.

  11. #56
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    You know what the problem is?
    The ranges between the very subjective category numbers are two great. Seriously. If Skater A was the best under 6.0, he'd get a 5.9 (or a 6.0 if clean). The second best would get maybe a 5.8 or a 5.7, a difference of a decimal. Now the differences are over a point per category. If A gets a 9.0 in all categories, B may get 7.75. This means that B cannot beat A unless he has a meltdown. A clean skate by B cannot beat an OK but flawed skate by A. This means that a winner can pretty much be be predetermined by such subjective categories as "commitment to the music" or "sincerity of moves" or whatever the categories are. People who are annoyed at Patrick's dominance like myself don't deny he's an excellent skater with a lot of wonderful qualities. It's just that the system has made him unbeatable, and there is great sports animosity for overdogs. I root for the Yankees, I hear it all the time, but at least when the Yankees don't hit, pitch or field well, they still lose.

    My second point: why have the programs become so heavy and serious lately that they are a failure unless the skaters look miserable and tortured? Very few of them have suffered, they're almost all affluent teenagers, or near teens. They can't really be expected to show the pain of the world realistically. Please, let them skate age-appropriate programs. This trend has probably ruined the career of a female skater known for being cute and perky, as she's trying to force herself into the "miserable" mold. Yes, Michelle could portray angst very well, but it shouldn't be a requirement for men and women.
    Last edited by Poodlepal; 04-10-2012 at 09:41 AM.

  12. #57
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    My second point: why have the programs become so heavy and serious lately that they are a failure unless the skaters look miserable and tortured? Very few of them have suffered, they're almost all affluent teenagers, or near teens. They can't really be expected to show the pain of the world realistically. Please, let them skate age-appropriate programs. This trend has probably ruined the career of a female skater known for being cute and perky, as she's trying to force herself into the "miserable" mold.
    A little but OT, but I hope this disease does not strike Kanako Murakami any time soon. It was interesting to me that she took on the Mendelssohn violin concerto (the most soul-satisfying work in the violin repertoire, IMHO). Sasha Cohen also used this music in the 1999-2000 season at age 15, and performed the heck out of it, although she was criticized along the lines, what does this wet-behind-the-ears child know of the musical profundity of Mendelsohn?

  13. #58
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    Great points, deedee1.

    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    CoP also helped skaters to stay eligible longer than before. We did not see many veteran skaters to retire every four years right after Olympics anymore, did we?

    Under the old system before CoP, Dai would have decided to retire upon his knee injury, because he might have been unsure whether he ever could get back his 3A or quad in time for the Olympics and would have realized he had zero chance to get a medal at Vancouver.
    Yes, that's possible. But I think we saw eligible careers extended in the 10 years before the introduction of the IJS for reasons unrelated to the scoring system or the big jumps: the end of restrictions on earning money through sport, prize money at ISU championships, additional money available for participation in "open"/"interpretive" competitions so top skaters had other options without losing eligibility (and the subsequent decline of pro competitions that were the only way to lose it).

    And, regarding the jumps, changes like allowing 3-3 combos in the ladies' short program allowed Surya Bonaly still to be fairly competitive in 97 and 98 after losing her lutz and flip to injury.

    Still, the skaters who wanted to compete continued to do so as long as they had hope of making their country's world team -- which varied based not only on their own ability to maintain their skills but also on who else they had to compete against at home. And those who preferred to perform or coach or move on from skating entirely chose to do that instead.

    But figure skating is not a sport for its fans that only a win (or not) matters, at least for me.
    So, yes, I agree with you: please leave other skaters in peace.
    Or me either. As a Tonya Harding fan I learned early on that rooting for a specific skater, and against that skater's rivals, was not the best way to enjoy the sport -- better to appreciate the best skills of all the skaters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    You know what the problem is?
    If they still had the old system, Patrick, if he skated clean, would get a 6.0 in presentation, and probably a 5.8/5.9 if he fell or made a mistake.

    The second best would get a decimal or two less--maybe somewhere in the 5.7-5.8 range per judge. The scores would still be pretty close, though.

    Now, it seems like the best skater of the night in the "presentation" area can get a 9 or 10, where the others are in the 7-8 per category--a much bigger drop. There is no doubt that winners can be "pre-arranged" by these rather subjective areas of interpretation, "commitment" "effortlessness" etc.
    The question is whether it's actual "prearrangement" (prejudging) or just judges seeing one or a few skaters who is/are that much better than the rest.

    You see it at lower levels, e.g., at club competitions or regionals in the US. The majority of the skaters are what we might call recreational competitors of average athletic ability who put in the practice time to learn the mid-level skills. And then there are a few gifted athletes who stand out from the rest of the kids at their age group/test level because the quality of the way they move across the ice (and in the air) is just on another level. So most skaters in an intermediate or novice competition might be earning PCS in the high 2s and 3s, and the gifted ones might get 4s and even 5s, even when they make more or more obvious mistakes than the average skaters. The judges might not even know the skaters by name, so it's not a case of prearrangement -- just a recognition of the difference in quality.

    Everyone who can get to the final round at Worlds is well above average in athletic ability. But a small percentage of those are exceptional outliers even at the elite level. And occasionally there might be a single skater whose natural athletic gifts combined with his/her technical training and "packaging" allows that skater a big enough overall advantage over the rest of the field to afford a few mistakes against the next best challenger.

    Also, they are not always affected by falls, where I remember Dick and Peggy pointing out that a program with a fall would never get a 6.0
    Highly unlikely, but I can think of a couple of examples. Janet Lynn fell on a flying sitspin at 1972 Olympics and still earned one 6.0 for artistic impression. Not quite a fall, but [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7qlWNiR4pw&t=3m38s]this performance[/url] got a 6.0 for technical merit (thanks to the first-ever clean quad-triple combo earlier in the program).

    My second point: why have the programs become so heavy and serious lately that they are a failure unless the skaters look miserable and tortured? Very few of them have suffered, they're almost all affluent teenagers, or near teens. They can't really be expected to show the pain of the world realistically. Please, let them skate age-appropriate programs. This trend has probably ruined the career of a female skater known for being cute and perky, as she's trying to force herself into the "miserable" mold. Yes, Michelle could portray angst very well, but it shouldn't be a requirement for men and women.
    It's not a requirement. The skaters can choose to be angsty, but the freestyle rules don't mention it and the judges don't necessarily prefer it.
    In ice dance, the officials were so fed up with the angst that they actually passed a rule requiring the programs to be "uplifting"!

  14. #59
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal
    This means that a winner can pretty much be be predetermined by such subjective categories as "commitment to the music" or "sincerity of moves" or whatever the categories are. People who are annoyed at Patrick's dominance like myself don't deny he's an excellent skater with a lot of wonderful qualities.
    This is a good point. Plus, I think that fans are quite content to leave it to the technical specialists to determine whether an (F)CCoSp earned a level 3 or a level 4. Fans do not challenge the expertise of the judging panel to evaluate the “variety, difficulty, intricacy, and quality” of transitions and linking footwork between elements. (Interestingly, the program component that is easiest to quantify – transitions – is uniformly the lowest of the five across all competitions and all skaters.)

    But when it comes to establishing “an invisible connection to the audience” (P&E), we’re like, “Hey wait a minute! I am the audience!”

    Even within the program components there are aspects that we feel can be reliably judged by experienced professional judges – and other aspects where we think, “Oh yeah? Who says so?” In Performance/Execution I am satisfied to give the judges their due on “Carriage,” “Clarity of Movement,” and “Variety and Contrast.” But on “style and individuality/personality,” and “sincerity of emotion,” I feel (perhaps in ignorance) like my opinion is just as valid as the judges’.

    To me, this was one of the attractive features of 6.0 ordinal judging. In 6.0 I can say, hey, I agree with the three judges that liked this skater better, and I disagree with the six who went the other way. A good time is had by all, and there is no need for skating experts to chastise the audience for having an opinion.

  15. #60
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Is there anyone out there who agrees that this worlds was "over the top" corrupt? IMHO I think Cinquanta's fingerprints were all over this competition. There was no way that Kostner was not going to get the gold and there was no way that Chan was not going to get the gold. After this Worlds I am very suspicious of the Canadian figure skating organization. I used to think they were on the up and up but no more. Again, IMHO Daisuke's program was much better that Chans (Even with his 2 quads) and, Kostner to me is awkward and somewhat sloppy. Go figure.

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