Men's PCS at Worlds.

Oh, ye of little faith. Go, Takahashi!

(Someday, read up about the Yankees, an almost unbeatable team back in the 1940s and 1950s. Their rivals, the Brooklyn Dodgers, came up short year after year. Every year, Dodger fans would holler "Wait till next year!" And in 1955, next year came at last, and the Dodgers won the World Series. Not only did they win, but the team they beat was the Yankees. Go, Takahashi!)

Just curious Pantongfan, but why do you think Chan has already peaked? I mean, he has to sometime, but why now? He's still pretty young and a very hard and dedicated worker. To me, I don't think we've seen all he has to give. Maybe there won't be much more SS-wise he can do (although I'm no expert on that, please correct me if I'm wrong), but I think in jumping he can still improve and his artistry is getting better and better. I realize you're not a fan of his, but I just wanted to ask in case I'm missing something

Takahashi has actually improved this season: getting his quad back and improving on it and his general consistency. And I predict the ISU is going to either outright revamp part of the COP, or seriously redirect judges on how to score PCS in reaction to the controversial results of men's at the recent Worlds. As long as Daisuke skates at his current level or better, he will probably do much better against Patrick.

skateflower said:

How would you have scored the PCS for the following performances in the men's LP: Takahashi, Hanyu, Chan, Brian

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I will be the first brazen enough to take up your challenge:

Skating skills (SS, TR):
Chan (9.15) > Takahashi (8.30) > Hanyu (8.15) > Brian (8.05, short of transitions)

Presentation (PE, CH, IN):
Takahashi (8.60) > Brian (8.35) > Hanyu (8.25, one fall) > Chan (7.75, three visible errors + prolonged timing problems. Sorry, Chan, timing is Presentation 101).

(1) Skating Skills + Presentation
Takahashi (8.30 + 8.60 = 16.9) = Chan (9.15 + 7.75 = 16.9) > Hanyu (8.15 + 8.25 = 16.4) = Brian (8.05 + 8.35 = 16.40)
Takahashi tied with Chan; Hanyu tied with Brian.

(2) Skating skills × Presentation
Takahashi (8.3 × 8.6 = 71.38) > Chan (9.15 × 7.75 = 70.91) > Hanyu (8.15 × 8.25 = 67.24) > Brian (8.35 × 8.05 = 67.22)

So, if I were the judge, I would have had this ranking order for their PCS:
Takahashi > Chan > Hanyu > Brian

skatinginbc said:

So, if I were the judge,

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And if the scoring system in use were the one invented by skatinginbc rather than the one used in real life, huh?

I'm sure you could get the rankings to come out the way you want with the real system. The weightings and increments would be trickier.

gkelly said:

And if the scoring system in use were the one invented by skatinginbc rather than the one used in real life, huh?

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That's called "playing the judge" game. It's part of the fun. Now, I'm curious about your ranking order if you were the judge. Since you are the expert, I would like to see your scores for those four performances by using the current system or whatever the system you want.

gkelly said:

The weightings and increments would be trickier.

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Oh, not tricky at all. quite simple actually. The current system is basically (Skating Skills × 2 + Presentation × 3) × 2. So if using the current system, my PCS scores for them would be:
Takahashi (84.8) > Chan (83.1) > Brian (82.3) > Hanyu (82.1)
Note: Brian > Hanyu if the current system is used.
Do I have to stick to the 0.25 increment? If so, then I will have the following:
Takahashi (84.75) > Chan (83.00) > Brian (82.25) > Hanyu (82.00)

skatinginbc said:

I will be the first brazen enough to take up your challenge:

Skating skills (SS, TR):

Chan (9.15) > Takahashi (8.30) > Hanyu (8.15) > Brian (8.05, short of transitions)

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In this system, do you give scores in increments of .05 points?

Mathman said:

In this system, do you give scores in increments of .05 points?

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Well, if we use the mean of 5 judges' scores (2 judging panels, one for technique, one for quality), something like 8.05 might appear in the final results.

A judge, however, could not give those scores, right? So the question, how would you score it if you were a judge wasn't actually addressed, yes?

(2) Skating skills × Presentation

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In my opinion this idea, intriguing as it is, requires further thought.

The idea is that the first score should be a measure of the difficulty of the program, not counting those elements that are individually scored. The presentation score should measure the quality of the performance.

But skating skills include things like deep edges and effortless acceleration which are already more about quality than about difficulty.

I think skatingbc's points suggested in posts #84 and #86 are valid and interesting, which does not necessarily mean I totally agree with them.
Thanks anyway for your endeaver to make your assertion more founded.

skatinginbc said:

Presentation (PE, CH, IN):
Takahashi (8.60) > Brian (8.35) > Hanyu (8.25, one fall) > Chan (7.75, three visible errors + prolonged timing problems. Sorry, Chan, timing is Presentation 101).
So, if I were the judge, I would have had this ranking order for their PCS:
Takahashi > Chan > Hanyu > Brian

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If you think timely movement is a very important factor in IN or Presentation and 'time violation' has not been punished in current system as severely as it should be, I also think the point is valid too.

Anyway, to convince me more, would you show how other skaters were treated in PCS when they did time violations? I remember Mao Asada got -1 deductions a few times in the past. Are judges lenient about time violation except -1 point? Is it right or wrong?

As far as "playing the judge" is concerned, if I have to give a score as an individual judge under the current scoring system and criteria, well, there is not much fun or room for debate. Chan won rightfully in my opinion as I have mentioned in the Men's FS thread. Timing is not a big part of the current criteria for singles skating, nor are visible errors. End of the story. No discussion is needed. What would make it fun for discussions is if we are allowed to present our own rationales and judgment, that is to say, allowed to think outside the box. Personally I believe that musicality is a critical part of presentation and I have given my reasoning in Post #15 and Post #20. So, if I were asked to assign a number to the value of a skater's performance based on my own personal preference, the numbers provided in #84 and #86 are what I think their scores should approximate. I provided reasons (e.g., Brian's relative lack of transitions) for my scores. And I think the reason that skateflower asked us to play the judge is simply to elicit different perspectives from different posters. We don't have to agree with each other. But through this exercise, we may come up with a general idea about what fans are actually watching in contrast to what the CoP has prescribed regarding the PCSs of a performance.

skatinginbc said:

That's called "playing the judge" game. It's part of the fun. Now, I'm curious about your ranking order if you were the judge. Since you are the expert, I would like to see your scores for those four performances by using the current system or whatever the system you want.

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As I mentioned several pages ago, I don't think I could do this honestly with this event at this point, knowing the results and the controversies before I saw the programs for the first time.

I often try to score in real time when I watch an event live or on video without knowing the outcome, but I never had that opportunity for this Worlds.

Just for the heck of it, I wondered how it would work to take the criteria from the old 6.0 Presentation mark and assign separate numbers for each:
Harmonious Composition/Conformity with the Music Chosen
Variation of Speed
Use of the Ice Surface
Easy Movement/Sureness in Time to the Music
Carriage and Style
Originality
Expression of the Character of the Music
(Unison not applicable)

I watched Hanyu's performance (for the first time) with those concepts in mind. I felt he was especially strong on easy movement and sureness (aside from 2-3 seconds around the fall) and just average on carriage and style and originality, good but not outstanding on the other criteria. And I missed having separate scores for skating skills (beyond the easy movement/sureness) and transitions.

gkelly said:

Hanyu's...just average on carriage and style

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Agreed. However, he had good musicality, and I think that's why those who liked him gave him really high marks. As I said in Post #20, musicality seems to be more important than postures based on neuroaesthetic studies.

skatinginbc said:

Please name specific examples that those changes resulted in rhythmic/melodic dissonance. Otherwise, your categorical claim proved little to us. Remember: As long as the entrance, foot change, and exit went with the music, the number of spin rotations did not significantly impact the musicality. Chan's lagging behind the music during his circular footwork, however, caused some of his choreographic highlights to look out of place. As I mentioned in my previous post, a kneeling move originally choreographed for an accented beat turned into highlighting an UNACCENTED beat and lost its meaning due to his timing problems, which occurred rather early during his free skate at Worlds. Indeed, he was struggling with the timing for over half of his program.

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Must everyone be like you to do the hair-spliting, otherwise, it'll mean that they don't have anything to support their claims?!:sarcasm:

You claimed that Chan's performance has had one second delay compared with his previous performances. So his interpretation wasn't good. I gave you examples that Takahashi's performance had one, two, or three seconds differences in numerous places. Further more, I understand why Dragonlady said Takahashi skated right through the music when he set up his jumps. Not everytime, but many times, his transitions (besides the obvious 4T prep) into jumps had little to do with the music, for example, 3A, and 3A-3T. After the jumps, such as 3S, his leg's movement wasn't emphasizing the correct beat and the highlight of that part of the music. The CCSp4 was out of place too. The best jumping path associated with music might be the 3Lz-2T-2Lo. You want further proof for them? Go to watch his World LP! Takahashi was over-rated in musicality in this particular World LP performance.

That's enough for me.

ETA: I have to thank you for this: The more we analyze both Takahashi's and Chan's performances in details, the more I've realized that the Judges were more correct than wrong in the scoring they gave out.

Serious Business said:

And I predict the ISU is going to either outright revamp part of the COP, or seriously redirect judges on how to score PCS in reaction to the controversial results of men's at the recent Worlds.

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I am sorry, what controversial results are you referring to re: Men's competition at Worlds? You made it sound as though it's a generally accepted statement of fact similar to SLC 2002 when it's clearly not. To qualify as a controversy in the eyes of the ISU, there should be - at the very least - a protest filed by a member organization re: the results, partially or as a whole, regardless whether the claim is eventually accepted or not. It didn't need to be ground shocking type of protest. In 2008, when Joubert received a non-fall deduction in his SP at Worlds, the FFSG immediately filed a protest before the competition even ends. As far as I know, JSF never made such a request which they were certainly entitled to do. Public statements from Takahashi and his coach after the competition made no mention of any disagreement or even questioning of the results. The same cannot be said about other skaters such as Jeremy Abbott who openly complained about his TR mark for being too low, among other things. However, given his poor showing, they came across as excuses, which in my view, really doesn't do himself any favor. Therefore, I must conclude the so called "controversial results" you are alluding to are the perceptions of some fans attempting to tea-leaf reading the apparent displeasure of some spectators present at the event. Even that, a few Europe based members here who actually attended the event live told us that the audience was not in fact booing at Patrick Chan. It's entirely possible and plausible that a broadcast could give a different perception to the viewers than those who were there live. So what exactly was controversial then and why would the ISU would feel any urge to take such knee-jerk reaction given the absence of any credible anomaly in the results?

Besides, the last time the ISU gave in to such knee-jerk reaction in Singles skating was when it decided to allow women the option of doing 3A in the SP barely 2 years ago. Not only the rule change was shocking at the time and for one, I personally strongly disagreed with - fast forward 2 years, we know how that rule change turned out - a complete phantom rule. No Russian wonder girls trying it and the only skater it was supposedly going to help ended up plunging that skater into a "recession". What good is a rule change of this nature when there is actually no one who can actually use it? This is a prime example of decision made based on knee-jerk reaction, can't say the unfortunate outcome today hasn't been warned 2 years ago.

I say for those who wish for rule changes just because the results didn't suit them - beware what you ask for, you never know whom it will hit instead and the unintended consequences. For example, those who propose exponential deductions for more than one fall in a given program - just know that their first victim could have very well being Takahashi himself, who fell 3 times at his Japanese National FS and may well be left off the national podium if such proposal was in effect. Should the JSF then bump somebody to send him to Worlds regardless? Even if they did that, how would that make Takahashi feel? In Japanese mentality, I think he would feel deeply ashamed if that were the case.

As long as Daisuke skates at his current level or better, he will probably do much better against Patrick.

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For this statement to be true, you have to assume Patrick Chan is a static target and that he won't improve from this point forward. The reality is for anyone to catch up, not only they have to improve but they must do so at a faster rate than Patrick Chan is upping his own game - easier said than done. Given Patrick's age vs. that of Takahashi, and state of their health, Takahashi may have the will but his body may not let him to do it. Chan has stated that adding a 2nd type of Quad is part of his plan. Let that be a Flip or a Salchow, remains to be seen. Suffice to say, Chan has also demonstrated a greater range of presentation style from his various roles: Take 5, Phantom of Opera and Concierto de Aranjuez, to his latest exhibition number compared to Takahashi's somewhat limited repertoire of style and music choices.

Someone asked earlier, how come Joubert's well skated Matrix at Worlds didn't receive any higher PCS. Little did they know, Joubert has been unable to grow out of Matrix, his signature piece, since 2004 because his later experimentation with other styles weren't well received but most importantly, he himself was unable to get comfortable with other styles for him to be fully effective in his programs. Takahashi, to a lesser extent, is suffering from the same fatigue. To me, if you turn off the sound, Takahashi's competitive programs come across as being fairly similar to each other because the range of emotions, gesture and expression are almost the same for the last few years. He has stated he is a passionate person and if he could, he would be a dancer. If shows in his skating, the passion, but after while, however positive that might be, it becomes repetitive. I feel for Takahashi to reach the next level, he would to explore a style outside of his comfort zone - to show he can be versatile.

Chan's personality is naturally outgoing and extrovert - Take 5 would be more naturally aligned with his personality but his LP and especially his Exhibition piece are anything but outgoing. For him to be able to express the subtle yet strong emotions underlined in those pieces is challenging. It's the same when someone who is introvert yet mistaken for being less emotive whereas in reality an introvert may in fact be a very emotional person, one just needs to see beyond the surface. Takahashi's style is more "in your face", you don't need to focus on him very hard in order to see what he is presenting because he brings it to you. That's nice but that's certainly not the only way to express a music which many here seem to think it's the only way based on their comments on wanting to bring experts in arts and dance to judge instead.

Bluebonnet said:

Must everyone be like you to do the hair-spliting, otherwise, it'll mean that they don't have anything to support their claims?!:sarcasm:

You claimed that Chan's performance has had one second delay compared with his previous performances. So his interpretation wasn't good. I gave you examples that Takahashi's performance had one, two, or three seconds differences in numerous places.

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My question is, why is Chan the only one being put under the microscope for timing issue by skatinginbc and others? If we were to question the lack of consideration for this criterion as some people are claiming - a valid question, as opposed to any other unspoken motive which they vehemently deny having, why not use some other skaters as part of the examination of this issue as well? After all, Chan is far from the only skater this season who have had issue with timing in their skate. And shouldn't a question like this use a variety of example from different skaters to demonstrate in fact the ISU has not given this intriguing consideration enough thoughts. Otherwise, all we may be demonstrating if we were to solely using Chan as our example is that the judges may have a bias towards this skater whereas in fact, they showed no such mercy when another skater of lesser reputation made the same type of timing error. Therefore, it makes you wonder whether this is in fact the real intent behind the question as opposed to a genuine concern for the lack of consideration given to timing as they do in Ice Dance. Besides, a good example to examine is Takahashi's 3 falls win at the Japanese Nationals. He fell 3 times in his FS, completely lost control the beat of the music and timing and yet, his PCS shot sky high. Anyone care to analyze this?

Speaking of beat, an important difference between the choice of music in Singles vs. Ice Dance is the former doesn't require an audible beat/rythm whereas the latter is mandated to have one. It would be somewhat difficult for Singles judges to evaluate the timing of a program if the chosen music has no audible beat or clear rythm, which is often the case in Singles. And it's not possible to require judges to review every skaters' program several times before the competition to the point they can actually recognize whether a said Singles skater is actually behind his/her music. If such focus is only given to certain skaters but not everyone, then there is no fairness and the results would have been inequitable. I knew Chan was behind his music because I have seen him skate many times, in person or on TV/Internet this season, so I know right ahead he was behind his music. Can I say the same for all 30 skaters who took part in the World Championship? Absolutely not, especially if their music has no discernible beat or rhythm.

I am somewhat surprised after pages of arguing by knowledgeable fans, no one has yet pointed out such important yet well known difference in the music requirement between Singles vs. Ice Dance, which is responsible for the lack of Timing as a direct criterion in Singles. It doesn't mean the question is not valid in Singles, like I said, it's an intriguing consideration. It remains to be seen how it can be applied fairly and how to detect that given the current music requirement. That said, if the question was really a camouflage for another complaint for whatever reason, then I feel such discussion is quite pointless.

wallylutz said:

My question is, why is Chan the only one being put under the microscope for timing issue by skatinginbc and others?

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Who else besides Chan among the four skaters named (Chan, Dai, Brian, Yuzuru) was booed at Worlds? Who else besides Chan among the four skaters named that had a prolonged timing issue? Chan's score was the most controversial, so it was only natural for me to devote most of my opinions on his performance. Yuzuru's and Brian's presentations were really close, almost tied I would say. If we went with the majority, Brian won. If we went with the mean, Yuzuru won. If we went with one method, Yuzuru won. If we went with the other, Brian won. It's almost like flipping a coin. There is not much for me to discuss.

wallylutz said:

I knew Chan was behind his music because I have seen him skate many times, in person or on TV/Internet this season, so I know right ahead he was behind his music. Can I say the same for all 30 skaters who took part in the World Championship? Absolutely not, especially if their music has no discernible beat or rhythm.

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Can you name any skater, from the past or the present, who skated to a piece of music that has no discernible beat or rhythm throughout the program? You can certainly argue that the first 50 seconds of Blues for Klook have no "discernible" rhythm and therefore Dai skated loosely to the music as if out of spontaneity and improvisation as the music dictated. However, as soon as the drum came and there was a clear rhythm, Dai danced to the beat accordingly. Concerto de Aranjuez, on the other hand, started with a clear rhythm (4/4, adagio: quarter note = 44) with the guitar playing cords to establish the beats. I don't think one can argue that it had no clear rhythm throughout the whole program. Certain body movements such as raising both arms are like saying "look at me" with an attention-drawing effect, which naturally goes with an emphasizing function. When Chan raised his both arms up high at a "fermata" or pause, it simply went against the music. It was not done like one of Jeffrey Buttle's short program where he skated his footwork to a lengthy pause of music to create a sharp contrast on purpose (busy footwork vs silence ==> thought provoking).

wallylutz said:

Chan has also demonstrated a greater range of presentation style from his various roles: Take 5, Phantom of Opera and Concierto de Aranjuez, to his latest exhibition number compared to Takahashi's somewhat limited repertoire of style and music choices.

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Takahashi has demonstrated a greater range of presentation style from his various roles: In the Garden of Souls (2011–2012), Phantom of the Opera (2006–2007), and Concierto de Aranjuez (2004–2005), to his latest exhibition number compared to Chan's somewhat limited repertoire of style and music choices. Seriously though, I wish Chan would try something like "Eye" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcSTVa9Unqs) or "Hip-Hop Swan Lake" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-UxKhsJdZs). Chan is not afraid of showing us some rhythm, something on the beat all the time, is he?

sunny0760 said:

Anyway, to convince me more, would you show how other skaters were treated in PCS when they did time violations? I remember Mao Asada got -1 deductions a few times in the past. Are judges lenient about time violation except -1 point? Is it right or wrong?

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Viktoria HELGESSON, for example, received a -1 time deduction at this Worlds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJeZ8mIpNRU). She skated satisfactorily, though not perfectly, to the music till her spiral sequences where she delayed one second into her 2A, which she stepped out. Thenceforth, her skating seldom matched the music, painful to watch. So more than 1 minute or 1/4 of her program was in a musical mess. It certainly influenced her presentation. Her scores at the Worlds were: PE: 6.29, CH: 6.25, IN: 6.46, compared to her European scores: PE 7.04, CH: 6.89, IN: 7.11. The judges might or might not have reflected it in her PCSs. We could never know for sure.

Andrei LUTAI received a time deduction at 2009 Worlds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxeZRKiKPt8). He largely skated to the music till the last 30 seconds where he slowed down a little in the second half of his straight line footwork. Although the subsequent 2A was late, it coincidentally somewhat went with the music, so were his final spins. And then the music suddenly stopped in the middle of the spins. In this case, his delay had less impact. His scores at 2009 Worlds were: PE: 6.10, CH: 6.25, IN: 6.25, compared to his European scores of that year: PE: 6.25, CH: 6.30, IN: 6.30.

I would like to watch some Mao's time-violation performances, but I'm too lazy to dig through every GP competitions to find them. If any one happens to know the event and year, please let me know or provide a link if you will.

skatinginbc said:

You can certainly argue that the first 50 seconds of Blues for Klook have no "discernible" rhythm and therefore Dai skated loosely to the music as if out of spontaneity and improvisation as the music dictated. However, as soon as the drum came and there was a clear rhythm, Dai danced to the beat accordingly. Concerto de Aranjuez, on the other hand, started with a clear rhythm (4/4, adagio: quarter note = 44) with the guitar playing cords to establish the beats. I don't think one can argue that it had no clear rhythm throughout the whole program. Certain body movements such as raising both arms are like saying "look at me" with an attention-drawing effect, which naturally goes with an emphasizing function. When Chan raised his both arms up high at a "fermata" or pause, it simply went against the music. It was not done like one of Jeffrey Buttle's short program where he skated his footwork to a lengthy pause of music to create a sharp contrast on purpose (busy footwork vs silence ==> thought provoking).

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I can certainly find Takahashi's movements went against his music after the first 50 seconds as you claimed. He ignored the beats and/or highlighted the wrong note/notes, mainly because he was preparing, doing, or finishing the elements. You are not the only one who knows about music even though you are the only one who gave detailed reference about your experiences in music. But I refuse to go down with you further to this insane path. If you want further clarification, go to watch his LP yourself. They were all there.

Buttercup said:

There's already one Chan vs. Dai thread, is this really necessary? There were other skaters in Nice, you know. Some of them received PCS that also warrant discussion - why can't we move on to them? I mean, have you seen Florent Amodio's programs? Free Flo!

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wallylutz said:

Someone asked earlier, how come Joubert's well skated Matrix at Worlds didn't receive any higher PCS. Little did they know, Joubert has been unable to grow out of Matrix, his signature piece, since 2004 because his later experimentation with other styles weren't well received but most importantly, he himself was unable to get comfortable with other styles for him to be fully effective in his programs.

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pangtongfan said:

both French guys royally gifted on PCS, would have scored atleast 5 points lower anywhere else.

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The most overmarked skaters at this competition were Amodio and Joubert, esp. Amodio. These two skaters had a lot of posing and pauses in their programs, even performing to music with words but not getting deductions! Home advantage factor? The Frenchmen did much easier programs than Patrick, Hanyu, and Daisuke, so of course it was much easier for them to be seemingly “clean.”

I understand that the home crowd wanted French skaters to score high, and I’m sooo glad that P/B won bronze, but Amodio and Joubert… Come on! They did not deserve those scores they got.