Ice Dance: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
I wonder what that quote would be, the faking relationship part. Last I checked V/M have never claimed to be an off ice couple. Now on the ice do they act like a couple-YES. But that's the correct thing to do. Dance between a couple is all about the relationship between the two people. So at that moment in time, you should be acting romantic. Its called appropriate performance.

If D/W really made comments disparging it as faking, that goes to show they may be more technicians than real dancers.

This is not directed at you personally but I dislike the idea that a lot of people seem to have that technicians can't be real dancers, that brother-sister teams can't be real dancers etc. One of the things I like best about ice dancing is the fact that (IMO) there are may different ways to make a dance successful. Obviously if a team is ONLY going through the motions, that is not acceptable, but I do believe that a dance that is technically strong and truly preformed with gusto and enthusiasm can sometimes be a masterpiece with or without a romantic angle to it (for me a great example actually would D&W's DF).
 

cleoc

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Nothing mean or extreme, but her comment about being happy to meet with the judges to see what they wanted for D/W to improve struck me as a little sharp (though yes, I admit, I'm projecting).

Sorry, but who said this? Marina?
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I don't think Meryl's comment was directed at V/M at all. I think she had another pair in mind.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
This is not directed at you personally but I dislike the idea that a lot of people seem to have that technicians can't be real dancers, that brother-sister teams can't be real dancers etc. One of the things I like best about ice dancing is the fact that (IMO) there are may different ways to make a dance successful. Obviously if a team is ONLY going through the motions, that is not acceptable, but I do believe that a dance that is technically strong and truly preformed with gusto and enthusiasm can sometimes be a masterpiece with or without a romantic angle to it (for me a great example actually would D&W's DF).
I very much agree that a relationship between two ice dancers does not necessarily have to be romantic, just as relationships between two people aren't always romantic. Something like the Kerrs' Ruled by Secrecy, or Exogenesis, or the Zars' Schindler's List certainly had a real relationship between the partners without any romance. I also agree that being strong technically doesn't have to preclude anyone from being able to (ice) dance well - to the contrary, it makes more things possible. Of course, some skaters, in all disciplines, are better technicians than artists/performers, and vice versa.

That said, I tried to watch DF with an open mind at Worlds, and I don't get the appeal. And I always thought S&D was the program people really loved from Meryl and Charlie?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Nothing mean or extreme, but her comment about being happy to meet with the judges to see what they wanted for D/W to improve struck me as a little sharp (though yes, I admit, I'm projecting).

That's what they always say--and they are very serious about it. Every year they have a serious list of things they are trying to improve, and that list starts with the judges' comments.

Buttercup, it is possible to like more than one program from a team; I like both S&D, and DF.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Buttercup, it is possible to like more than one program from a team; I like both S&D, and DF.
Of course it is. I was referring to the description of DF as a masterpiece, as well as to IP's earlier post about how it suited D/W perfectly; my impression is that S&D is the program most often mentioned as best suited to their style, and seems to be quite popular, along with the Bollywood OD.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Of course it is. I was referring to the description of DF as a masterpiece, as well as to IP's earlier post about how it suited D/W perfectly; my impression is that S&D is the program most often mentioned as best suited to their style, and seems to be quite popular, along with the Bollywood OD.

I like all three very much. Regardless of what suites their style best though, the reason I'd call DF a masterpiece and not S&D is because IMO Charlie and Meryl are MUCH stronger dancers now than they were then. It's not always about the dance itself but also how the skaters preform it and though S&D was great for D&W, and actually now that I think about it their performance of it was very strong, I can't watch it now without noticing how much they have improved.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I like all three very much. Regardless of what suites their style best though, the reason I'd call DF a masterpiece and not S&D is because IMO Charlie and Meryl are MUCH stronger dancers now than they were then. It's not always about the dance itself but also how the skaters preform it and though S&D was great for D&W, and actually now that I think about it their performance of it was very strong, I can't watch it now without noticing how much they have improved.
For me, sometimes older programs are stronger or more interesting than current ones, even if the skating isn't as good; for instance, with P/B, I like some of their Lyon programs better than their later ones. It's true that skaters can grow as technicians and performers, but this doesn't mean that the programs are better, and I sometimes I wonder how skaters would interpret and perform their earlier efforts when they are further along in their careers.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
This is not directed at you personally but I dislike the idea that a lot of people seem to have that technicians can't be real dancers, that brother-sister teams can't be real dancers etc. One of the things I like best about ice dancing is the fact that (IMO) there are may different ways to make a dance successful. Obviously if a team is ONLY going through the motions, that is not acceptable, but I do believe that a dance that is technically strong and truly preformed with gusto and enthusiasm can sometimes be a masterpiece with or without a romantic angle to it (for me a great example actually would D&W's DF).

You must be a great technician to be a truly great dancer.

Not all great technicians are great dancers. They are two different skill sets.

A great dance does not have to have a romantic angle to it.
 

skatingfan04

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
What a fantastic thread.:) Thanks to everyone for these insightful comments. I'd just like to throw in my two cents on a couple of points.

First off, I really don't think Marina Zoueva's choreo was that bad this year, although I will say I wasn't partial to any of the SD's her teams came out with. I thought D/W's FD was a total masterpiece, but felt that D/W lack of connection and refinement was what didn't make it work for me, not the choreo itself. Admittedly, V/M's Funny Face was no masterpiece, but when you look at the crop of hideous programs that popped up on the international circuit this season it still looks pretty good.We must also keep in mind that (as far as I understood) the issues with Tessa's legs forced them to modify a lot of their elements, which may have also been a contributing factor. And I didn't mind the Shibs program, but again I feel that the Shibs lack emotional/performance maturity, and that combined with the brother/sister thing makes it more difficult to choose a concept that works for them. I think we need to remember that she creates a large number of programs each season on top of her coaching responsibilities, and that it's impossible to expect every one to turn out to be a masteripiece. At the very least, you can say that her programs are always of good quality, even when they're not her absolute best work.

As for bronze at worlds this year, I felt it should have gone to W/P, but was not terribly surprised (or dissapointed, for that matter) to see it go to P/B. My main issue in all of this was that the difference between the two came down to PCS. If it had been the tech score, I think it would have been easier to swallow. I felt that W/P had better material and skated with more speed and expression, though I will admit that P/B had awesome lifts and probably have slightly better skating quality than the Canadians. Either way, what's done is done. I do feel, though, that W/P might establish themselves solidly as the world #3's as early as next season. They have made huge leaps in technique and performance, and there is nothing to suggest that the won't continue to improve. I think the polka will be extremely well suited for them (Kaitlyn has that sort of infectious enthusiasm that this type of program needs, and Andrew, I believe, has experince with folk dancing off the ice). I worry, though, about them having to follow up Je Suis Malade, which becamse such an iconic program with the fans. I have faith, though. Unlike past dissapointments, loosing the world bronze didn't seem to deflate Kaitlyn. I'm sure they were dissapointed, but they have really improved on their mental toughness, and seem to be cometing with a really fantastic attitude, so I have no doubt they'll come out on fire next season.

As for the I/K vs. B/S debate, I would have to go with I/K, simply because I feel they are better performers, and have more sensitivity towards the music. That being said, I find both teams to have really sloppy technique. Every element looks like a struggle to me. Furthermore, the choices of music and choreography have been horrible, particularly for I/K. I will never understand why their coaches feel it is appropriate to take a young, expressive team with obvious chemistry and weigh them down with heavy, dramatic music and overly angsty choreography. It doesn't show off any of their assets. I really, really hope that they see the light and move seomwhere else for training, or at least get some new choreographers.

As for the judging at Canadian nationals, I fear I might go into a fairly long rant here. It was an absolute joke. Aside for V/M and W/P, who were rightfully in the top two spots, the rest of the cometition was rediculous. I don't know what Skate Canada was trying to pull with Gilles/Poirier, but there was no way they should have even been fourth, let alone on the podium. They skated sloppily, there was tons of space between them, their FD basically consisted of them standing around making silly arm movements (sorry Christopher Dean) and Paul was so much stronger than Piper that it was actually painful to watch him drag her around. Their placement was a total slap in the face to Ralph/Hill, who in spite of some persistent technical issues, improved in leaps and bounds this season and skated the FD of their lives at Nationals. It was an even bigger slap in the face to Paul/Islam. And it's Paul/Islam that I worry will be the ones to suffer if Skate Canada continues to inexplicably hold G/P up. I realise that R/H beat P/I repeatedly this season, but given that they barely squeaked by them at nationals, I honestly don't see them doing this again if P/I come back next season helathy and with a full summer of training under their belts. Thus, I think it'll turn into P/I vs. G/P for that third worlds spot in the forseeable future (along with the third spot to Sochi), and P/I might end up loosing every time regardless of what they put out on the ice. Unfortunately, P/I's entire season was an absolute injury-filled nightmare, and they were horribly underprepared for every competition as a result. And their scores showed it. The problem there is that they created a buzz in 2010/2011, and then fell flat on their faces through no fault of their own trying to live up to it. I truly think these two are completely brilliant, and that they have the potential to be incredible, but they have almost zero competition experience, are virtually unknown outside of the country, and missing out on worlds repeatedly will, I fear, completely derail their career. The only hope here comes from the fact that Skate Canada chose to send them to 4CC even though they didn't earn the spot. That seems to indicate that SC has an idea of which team of the three has the highest scoring/placement potential outide of the country (when healthy, of course). That might also mean that next season, when G/P are actually elidgeable for worlds and 4CC, SC might think twice about holding up a team that would probably get absolutely decimated by an international pannel (unless they make drastic improvements) and let the skating determine the results.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
For me, sometimes older programs are stronger or more interesting than current ones, even if the skating isn't as good; for instance, with P/B, I like some of their Lyon programs better than their later ones. It's true that skaters can grow as technicians and performers, but this doesn't mean that the programs are better, and I sometimes I wonder how skaters would interpret and perform their earlier efforts when they are further along in their careers.
THIS I completely agree with :)
You know, that could be a fun topic for an off-season thread...
 

slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
The biggest story for me in ice dance this year was I&K's sudden elevation to 'striking position'. Was it a prophecy being fulfilled, or divine intervention because of their choice of music?
 

romanoff81

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Their programs were really bad for I&K i guess ISU needs to start the push now to position a russian team for the podium in Sochi, i don`t see any of their junior teams doing it saw the winning couple from junior worlds they looked pretty average to me.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
The biggest story for me in ice dance this year was I&K's sudden elevation to 'striking position'. Was it a prophecy being fulfilled, or divine intervention because of their choice of music?
They moved up two spots at Worlds, where two of the teams that finished ahead of them last year made serious errors (the Shibs and B/S) and one spot at Euros - where the team that finished directly ahead of them in 2011 had retired (the Kerrs). So overall, I'd say they are making steady progress, not enjoying a sudden elevation. Last year they didn't quite live up to the buzz they generated as juniors, but they seem to be on the way up.

I don't like their programs much, and they still have work to do on the technical side, but they do show a lot of promise in the long-term. My guess is that the Russian fed decided to give itself more than one option going into Sochi. Next season will tell who will be the Russian no. 1s going into the Olympics.

On a more shallow note - Elena is stunning, which certainly doesn't hurt their marks.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I'd rather watch I/K than B/S any day. Both teams had bad programs, but bad programs plus poor posture is an awful combination.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
That's what they always say--and they are very serious about it. Every year they have a serious list of things they are trying to improve, and that list starts with the judges' comments.

While it's definitely true that it's become their stock answer to the question, I did find Meryl's comment a little sharper then the generic platitudes they prefer (she's practically daring the judges to find something wrong with their skate).

I'd rather watch I/K than B/S any day. Both teams had bad programs, but bad programs plus poor posture is an awful combination.

Ehh, I/K's FD music was worse than B/S'. I think the best solution would be to watch I/K's FD with B/S's music in the background. There won't be much difference.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
While it's definitely true that it's become their stock answer to the question, I did find Meryl's comment a little sharper then the generic platitudes they prefer (she's practically daring the judges to find something wrong with their skate).

How can you read such ridiculousness into a pretty standard skater comment after an event. Skaters like to get this kind of input from the judges regularly because it helps them to know what they need to be working on.

You seem to WANT at lot of drama here and you're prepared to twist things to that line of thinking at every turn. Skater focus on what they need to do, not what others are doing and none of them like to lose. That's how they became Champions in the first place. Just like Scott said after the GPF, whatever it takes, we'll do it. Meryl and Charlie want it just as bad as Scott and Tessa. That's what makes this rivalry the treat that it is. When one team loses they refocus and get ready for the next round.

It's that dramatic enough for you? It sure works for me.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I don't necessarily want a lot of drama. I won't deny my perception of Meryl colours my interpretation of this comment though. In context, I find this comment sharper than what they've said into the past.
 
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