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Thread: Ice Dance: Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I see two major issues with the Canton teams that you haven't mentioned, and they bear discussion:

    1. Zoueva and Shpilband don't really know what to do with teams that can't do romantic. They've come up with a few good ideas here and there, but for the most part, they seem to subscribe to the school of thought that dance is all about romance and passion - and if it can't be, well, let's default to ballroom. This results in D/W getting material that doesn't suit them stylistically, while the Shibs get the same programs over and over again. Both those teams could use a fresh point of view when it comes to choreography, the Shibs in particular. Being a sibling team can be limiting, sure, but it doesn't have to be that limiting.

    If you look at P/B, on the other hand, I think they've come as far as they have because they recognize where their strengths lie and what their limitations are, and their programs very clearly reflect that. You don't see them doing ballroom, and they certainly took a different approach to the SD this past season than most teams.
    I'm not sure that explains the results and shifts of this season, though. Firstly, I'm a little chagrined by the idea that ballroom is dismissed as default - surely the actual dance stage is a legitimate source of inspiration for programs. While I agree that Zoueva (in particular) believes dance is more romance and passion, that's true of a lot of coaches (Zhulin, for example, and both his programs for P/B - Zhivago and Chaplin - play up the romantic angle). Further, I'd argue that the defeaning hype for D/W and DF asserts the opposite - they had a program that suited them perfectly (mileage may vary) - I don't think they were hurt by the material in any way. V/M might've been - Funny Face really wasn't loved; indeed, what helped V/M was the perception that their program grew over the course of the season, something not so for D/W.

    Not going near the P/B comment!

    2. So long as V/M were the stars and D/W were the challengers, with everyone else further back (or in juniors), the relationships and the politicking could be worked out easily. But once the top two teams became more equal, and D/W started beating V/M - well, suddenly it's not so clear who should come out ahead, and I suspect this affected the political maneuvering and the working relationships. D/W became dangerous, and had to be stopped; V/M became beatable, and needed to be kept that way. I think there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to, and while I imagine that superficially at least everyone is friendly, I don't think Scott Moir would have made those post-GPF comments publicly in the past, or that D/W would have made sly digs about faking relationships.
    I'm definitely curious. If Meryl's edges on the ice were as sharp as they were in her post FD comments/pictures, I think we'd be talking about D/W as two time world champions.

    Somewhat OT, I don't think the French skaters were particularly overscored in Nice; I think there was overscoring going on almost across the board in some of the disciplines, and the French skaters were merely part of that trend. Contrary to what some suggest, the results have long shown that the FFSG is not that good at politicking for its skaters compared to the other big feds.
    Actually, I think P/B were specifically overscored. The scoring at the GPF was so high that Euros and 4CC saw some strong rebukes, but P/B were able to obliterate their GPF score in Nice. D/W were marked ten points lower. V/M four points. W/P scored.58 points higher. P/B, despite having higher levels at the GPF, managed to increase by 3+ points, which was more remarkable given how cautiously they were skating.

  2. #17
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'm not sure that explains the results and shifts of this season, though. Firstly, I'm a little chagrined by the idea that ballroom is dismissed as default - surely the actual dance stage is a legitimate source of inspiration for programs. While I agree that Zoueva (in particular) believes dance is more romance and passion, that's true of a lot of coaches (Zhulin, for example, and both his programs for P/B - Zhivago and Chaplin - play up the romantic angle). Further, I'd argue that the defeaning hype for D/W and DF asserts the opposite - they had a program that suited them perfectly (mileage may vary) - I don't think they were hurt by the material in any way. V/M might've been - Funny Face really wasn't loved; indeed, what helped V/M was the perception that their program grew over the course of the season, something not so for D/W.

    Not going near the P/B comment!
    I didn't find Chaplin particularly romantic, though I would have preferred something more distinct from their Circus program. You can use other teams instead of P/B as an example, since you don't like them - my point is that the right material can elevate a team's skating and how they are perceived, and make certain flaws less noticeable. I did single out the Shibs because D/W have had somewhat more varied programs (they've been around longer, so it does make sense). Didn't D/W work with some outside people on Bollywood? Maybe they need to repeat the experiment.

    Of course ballroom is a legitimate source of inspiration, but it's not exactly thinking outside the box, is it? The dance stage is more diverse than that. Personally, I am of the opinion that the best dance program of the season was Pina .

    Actually, I think P/B were specifically overscored. The scoring at the GPF was so high that Euros and 4CC saw some strong rebukes, but P/B were able to obliterate their GPF score in Nice. D/W were marked ten points lower. V/M four points. W/P scored.58 points higher. P/B, despite having higher levels at the GPF, managed to increase by 3+ points, which was more remarkable given how cautiously they were skating.
    My understanding is that Bourzat was affected by the bronchitis and the lost training time for a while even after he returned to the ice, which might explain the discrepancy in the FD scores between the GPF and Worlds, and P/B looked better to me than they did at Euros. Note that their PCS at 2012 Worlds wasn't that much different than what they received at 2011 Worlds, and I think we can all agree they skated better in the FD in 2012. V/M and D/W scored better PCS in the SD, and V/M also had better PCS in the FD compared to 2011; of the top five, it was actually W/P whose PCS went up the most compared to 2011, and they also had PBs across the board.

    My original comment was more about the men's event, however, as I felt that most of the top skaters in that event were generously scored and not just the French guys. I did point out it was OT.

  3. #18
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post


    I'm definitely curious. If Meryl's edges on the ice were as sharp as they were in her post FD comments/pictures, I think we'd be talking about D/W as two time world champions.
    As usual I am out of the drama loop- what was said by Meryl?

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    Nothing mean or extreme, but her comment about being happy to meet with the judges to see what they wanted for D/W to improve struck me as a little sharp (though yes, I admit, I'm projecting).

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I don't think Scott Moir would have made those post-GPF comments publicly in the past, or that D/W would have made sly digs about faking relationships.
    I wonder what that quote would be, the faking relationship part. Last I checked V/M have never claimed to be an off ice couple. Now on the ice do they act like a couple-YES. But that's the correct thing to do. Dance between a couple is all about the relationship between the two people. So at that moment in time, you should be acting romantic. Its called appropriate performance.

    If D/W really made comments disparging it as faking, that goes to show they may be more technicians than real dancers.
    Last edited by bekalc; 04-08-2012 at 10:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I wonder what that quote would be, the faking relationship part. Last I checked V/M have never claimed to be an off ice couple. Now on the ice do they act like a couple-YES. But that's the correct thing to do. Dance between a couple is all about the relationship between the two people. So at that moment in time, you should be acting romantic. Its called appropriate performance.

    If D/W really made comments disparging it as faking, that goes to show they may be more technicians than real dancers.
    This is not directed at you personally but I dislike the idea that a lot of people seem to have that technicians can't be real dancers, that brother-sister teams can't be real dancers etc. One of the things I like best about ice dancing is the fact that (IMO) there are may different ways to make a dance successful. Obviously if a team is ONLY going through the motions, that is not acceptable, but I do believe that a dance that is technically strong and truly preformed with gusto and enthusiasm can sometimes be a masterpiece with or without a romantic angle to it (for me a great example actually would D&W's DF).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Nothing mean or extreme, but her comment about being happy to meet with the judges to see what they wanted for D/W to improve struck me as a little sharp (though yes, I admit, I'm projecting).
    Sorry, but who said this? Marina?

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    I don't think Meryl's comment was directed at V/M at all. I think she had another pair in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    This is not directed at you personally but I dislike the idea that a lot of people seem to have that technicians can't be real dancers, that brother-sister teams can't be real dancers etc. One of the things I like best about ice dancing is the fact that (IMO) there are may different ways to make a dance successful. Obviously if a team is ONLY going through the motions, that is not acceptable, but I do believe that a dance that is technically strong and truly preformed with gusto and enthusiasm can sometimes be a masterpiece with or without a romantic angle to it (for me a great example actually would D&W's DF).
    I very much agree that a relationship between two ice dancers does not necessarily have to be romantic, just as relationships between two people aren't always romantic. Something like the Kerrs' Ruled by Secrecy, or Exogenesis, or the Zars' Schindler's List certainly had a real relationship between the partners without any romance. I also agree that being strong technically doesn't have to preclude anyone from being able to (ice) dance well - to the contrary, it makes more things possible. Of course, some skaters, in all disciplines, are better technicians than artists/performers, and vice versa.

    That said, I tried to watch DF with an open mind at Worlds, and I don't get the appeal. And I always thought S&D was the program people really loved from Meryl and Charlie?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Nothing mean or extreme, but her comment about being happy to meet with the judges to see what they wanted for D/W to improve struck me as a little sharp (though yes, I admit, I'm projecting).
    That's what they always say--and they are very serious about it. Every year they have a serious list of things they are trying to improve, and that list starts with the judges' comments.

    Buttercup, it is possible to like more than one program from a team; I like both S&D, and DF.

  11. #26
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Buttercup, it is possible to like more than one program from a team; I like both S&D, and DF.
    Of course it is. I was referring to the description of DF as a masterpiece, as well as to IP's earlier post about how it suited D/W perfectly; my impression is that S&D is the program most often mentioned as best suited to their style, and seems to be quite popular, along with the Bollywood OD.

  12. #27
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Of course it is. I was referring to the description of DF as a masterpiece, as well as to IP's earlier post about how it suited D/W perfectly; my impression is that S&D is the program most often mentioned as best suited to their style, and seems to be quite popular, along with the Bollywood OD.
    I like all three very much. Regardless of what suites their style best though, the reason I'd call DF a masterpiece and not S&D is because IMO Charlie and Meryl are MUCH stronger dancers now than they were then. It's not always about the dance itself but also how the skaters preform it and though S&D was great for D&W, and actually now that I think about it their performance of it was very strong, I can't watch it now without noticing how much they have improved.

  13. #28
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I like all three very much. Regardless of what suites their style best though, the reason I'd call DF a masterpiece and not S&D is because IMO Charlie and Meryl are MUCH stronger dancers now than they were then. It's not always about the dance itself but also how the skaters preform it and though S&D was great for D&W, and actually now that I think about it their performance of it was very strong, I can't watch it now without noticing how much they have improved.
    For me, sometimes older programs are stronger or more interesting than current ones, even if the skating isn't as good; for instance, with P/B, I like some of their Lyon programs better than their later ones. It's true that skaters can grow as technicians and performers, but this doesn't mean that the programs are better, and I sometimes I wonder how skaters would interpret and perform their earlier efforts when they are further along in their careers.

  14. #29
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    and I sometimes I wonder how skaters would interpret and perform their earlier efforts when they are further along in their careers.
    THIS I completely agree with

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    This is not directed at you personally but I dislike the idea that a lot of people seem to have that technicians can't be real dancers, that brother-sister teams can't be real dancers etc. One of the things I like best about ice dancing is the fact that (IMO) there are may different ways to make a dance successful. Obviously if a team is ONLY going through the motions, that is not acceptable, but I do believe that a dance that is technically strong and truly preformed with gusto and enthusiasm can sometimes be a masterpiece with or without a romantic angle to it (for me a great example actually would D&W's DF).
    You must be a great technician to be a truly great dancer.

    Not all great technicians are great dancers. They are two different skill sets.

    A great dance does not have to have a romantic angle to it.

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