Tarasova's official story

Can't answer your question well, Piel, except to say that Russian coaches seem to spend a lot more time working on basics--stroking, edges, speed, etc.--and there doesn't seem to be the emphasis on winning some "major" novice competition as there is in the US. I think Realtorgal's citing of the amount of money US parents have to shell out to support their child's skating is the most salient difference. Some years ago, another poster who lived in California said that although there were a lot of coaches from Russia, they weren't getting many students because the Russian coaches were used to having five years to just develop the skater's skills before s/he even competed. So you've got Russian coaches used to building bit by bit and US parents saying, "We're paying you boatloads of money! When is our kid going to compete and win!" I'm sure others are much more informed.

I mainly wanted to post to say that everytime I read a thread I seem to get another facet of the story. I think it's impossible to get the "true story" of what happens in such situations. I mean, try to get the true story when a couple breaks up. Always two sides at least.

I'm also glad Mathman gave the other side of the coin to the IFSC situation. On the surface, it might seem obvious, "Fever, cheezefest, don't do it." But to the USFSA, the IFSC is no cheezefest. It's big bucks--although I think their timing in scheduling it a week before the GPF sucked--and maybe showed a little irritation with the ISU? Who knows? But I do think that the IFSC thing for Sasha was a "damned if she did it, damned if she didn't" situation. If she didn't, she ruins the USFSA's big rematch between Michelle and Sasha before Nats. If she does it being sick, she skates like hell and ruins the USFSA's big rematch between Michelle and Sasha before Nats anyway--anybody would have wanted at least decent skating by the major players--except at least she skated. As I think I said on some other thread, one drawback I saw to Tarasova as Sasha's coach is that when TT worked with Kulik and Yags, she was still working with the Russian Federation, which she knew, even though she was training Kulik and Yags here in the US. Sasha was her first US skater, which meant dealing with the USFSA. And that's a whole world Tarasova doesn't know.

We're just now starting to see a lot more cross-cultural coach-student arrangements. It's one thing to have a Canadian coach and a US or Japanese skaters. These countries were never involved in a nuclear cold war. But Russian coaches and US skaters I think have many more differences to contend with. We may never know, but perhaps what Sasha did, albeit unintentionally, working with TAT for 18 months and getting the best she could from her before cultural differences and other problems came to a head was the best she could expect. I would agree that Sasha 2002 and Sasha now is like air and earth, but perhaps that's as far as Tarasova and Sasha could go as a team, no matter who influened things to the point that the break-up happened. Heck, it's happened loads of times before between US coaches and US skaters--big time champions too, like Scott Hamilton.

Thanks to Bynx for her translation and to whomever did the other translation. It all gets curiouser and curiouser. A few weeks ago, whoda thunk Michelle would be going to Nationals with a Russian coach and Sasha would be going with Sarah Hughes's former coach? Now if Jenny switches to the Satos and AP switches to Frank Carroll, we got ourselves an International Nationals!
Rgirl

Hi RGirl...

I enjoy reading your posts!

Some interesting points have been raised in this thread about possible cultural and methodology differences (could apply beyond the Russian coach / US skater situation for sure).

There was another post I read somewhere along the way pointing out the language barrier. I hadn't really thought about that as the TT / Sasha thing unfolded. The post had to do with the possibility of Sasha's Mom being overly involved, but someone else suggested that was probably necessary to make sure coach/student fully understood each other's communications.

That got me really thinking about that. I've had wonderful opportunities to deal with representatives of companies from other countries where English was not their first language. I've also traveled internationally as I'm sure many of you have - and I don't have any second language. (But I DO know how to order a cold beer in Spanish. And if I could only find that cocktail napkin I saved somewhere, I could give someone a thorough cussing in Portugese!) If it's correct to assume that Sasha's Mom was fairly involved just making sure the English / Russian communications were well understood by student and coach, that right there could be another big problem with international teams.

One of the scariest presentations I ever gave professionally was in front of a group of people from a Russian company, and several execs from my company. The ONLY person in the room who spoke both languages was a translator. It was very disconcerting to go through a slide, then the translator translated, and so forth. The disconcerting thing was not the flow disruption, but having NO IDEA what the translator was really saying, and whether it truly reflected what I thought I was saying. (they could have been talking about the size of my boobs for all I know!) That's an extreme example, but I just started thinking about how MANY misunderstandings occur when 2 parties have limited (or no in that case) understanding of the languages.

With that thought in mind, the most interesting part to me about Sasha's journal entry (other thread) was her comment that Robin skates around with her and talks to her on the ice. Maybe TT did that too (don't know, but somehow I have a hard time visualizing the substantial woman in fur gliding gracefully around the rink while communicating with her student LOL). But just maybe it will be good for Sasha to share a common first language with her coach, and get "real time" feedback on the ice?

Only time will tell... I wish her and all the other ladies and men and pairs and dance teams the very best at Nationals. I'm hoping for many, many clean performances and close competition all the way around. May my fondest dream come true!!

DG

Re: Hi RGirl...

Doggygirl said:

With that thought in mind, the most interesting part to me about Sasha's journal entry (other thread) was her comment that Robin skates around with her and talks to her on the ice. Maybe TT did that too (don't know, but somehow I have a hard time visualizing the substantial woman in fur gliding gracefully around the rink while communicating with her student LOL). But just maybe it will be good for Sasha to share a common first language with her coach, and get "real time" feedback on the ice?

Click to expand...

AFAIK Tarasova didn't come out on the ice with Sasha (or anyone else in the last few years). As for language problems, Sasha claims that she understands 95% from what's being in Russian, and I believe her (after all, her mother's "native" tongue is Russian, well, it was for Ukrainians then ). I've read that she once even corrected an interpreter, and said in broken (but still) Russian: "That's not what I've said." Tatiana's English is not so good, but she didn't have to understand what Sasha's saying that much.

Rather OT, but I'm curious why Sasha didn't learn Russian fluently. Maybe because it wasn't her mother's "real" native tongue (and she didn't know Ukrainian, so she couldn't teach her that), so she didn't bother? I just can't imagine having to use a foreign language to speak to my own kids, and not teaching them mine. That's not an option. I know that sometimes kids don't want to learn one parent's language, if they live in a country where it's a foreign language, but I think that if you really want to teach them (and speak to them in it), they will learn it. I once asked a friend of mine how came she knew Russian so well (she came to the States as a kid), and she said: "Are you kidding me? My parents would kill me if I didn't." That's the way to do it!

Rgirl,

Some years ago, another poster who lived in California said that although there were a lot of coaches from Russia, they weren't getting many students because the Russian coaches were used to having five years to just develop the skater's skills before s/he even competed. So you've got Russian coaches used to building bit by bit and US parents saying, "We're paying you boatloads of money! When is our kid going to compete and win!" I'm sure others are much more informed.

Click to expand...

That's so true from what I heard about the trainning method of Russian coach. That's why the Rusian skaters usually have the correct skating techneque while US skaters most flutzing and cheating (AP, SH, etc.).

Rafael for example will not teach his student next triple jump if the current one she is learning is only 1/8 turn cheated. And he is so emphasizing on stroking and edge, one of his student has another US coach who paid less attention in kid's stroking. Rafael would once a while make her just practice stroking and edging no jumping. Once the US coach 'correct' (I called it short cut technique) the kid's technique like changin her triple landing so that the landing ratio could be 100%. Rafael came back right way told the kid "stop using that skill, even the landing ratio is 100% but in a long run, your feet will get injured. even my method allow 90% landing ratio but in long run will not get you injury'. For all I know if the parents choose the Rusian coach for your kid, then just litsen to whatever the coach says.

IMO, TT gaveup Sasha for good reasons, she saw a strong headcase in Sasha (she said after GPF, she basically need to trainning Sasha from scratch after the 2 lost); the family wanted the quick result (not the building up to 2006); pluss Michelle switch to Russian coach (the words do flow in Russian FS community in US, that's a small world); Japanese ladies recently rising. So the mission bring Sasha's US title then World title this year or next year is impossible seems to TT. Pluss her own health problem, just too much pressure go for TT.

I regret...

...even bringing up the possible language barrier as it is PURE speculation (not based on anything official from Camp TT or Camp Cohen). I think there is far too much speculation going on anyway for Sasha.

That being said, you mention that Sasha may understand 95% of what is said to her in Russian. As a business person (and skaters are business people for sure) understanding 95% of any important communication would not be enough to suit me. What can be lost in the 5% of subtelty could easily make a seeminly good deal go bad.

And I have to think at this stage of Sasha's development, it's all about very subtle, small things that need to change. If those are the things that fall in that imaginary 5%.... Hmmm...

Good food for thought..

DG

Re: Re: Hi RGirl...

windspirit said:

Rather OT, but I'm curious why Sasha didn't learn Russian fluently. Maybe because it wasn't her mother's "real" native tongue (and she didn't know Ukrainian, so she couldn't teach her that), so she didn't bother? I just can't imagine having to use a foreign language to speak to my own kids, and not teaching them mine. That's not an option. I know that sometimes kids don't want to learn one parent's language, if they live in a country where it's a foreign language, but I think that if you really want to teach them (and speak to them in it), they will learn it. I once asked a friend of mine how came she knew Russian so well (she came to the States as a kid), and she said: "Are you kidding me? My parents would kill me if I didn't." That's the way to do it!

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It is very comman that the chidren don't speak their parent language fluently but can understand them pretty well in those first generation imgranting family. Especially in the family where parent's can speak and understand English, kids usually take advantage of it.

My daughter and kids from a few of my freinds. They can't speak chinese fluently, even some of them attend Chinese school at weekend, but they can totally understand the official chinese (manderine) even dialect. I and my husband both talked to my daughter in manderine at home and we talked to each other in our own dialect. My daughter understand perfectly and usually repy in english. Sometimes I don't even aware of she replied in english . Once I remember in a chinese grocery store, after my daughter and me having some conversation as what to buy, the staff there ask me "your daughter don't speak chinese?" I said "of course she speaks chinese, don't you hear we just talked to each other in chinese?". The staff said "Well I only heard you speak in english, all she said are english". LOL.

Re: I regret...

Doggygirl said:

...even bringing up the possible language barrier as it is PURE speculation (not based on anything official from Camp TT or Camp Cohen). I think there is far too much speculation going on anyway for Sasha.

That being said, you mention that Sasha may understand 95% of what is said to her in Russian. As a business person (and skaters are business people for sure) understanding 95% of any important communication would not be enough to suit me. What can be lost in the 5% of subtelty could easily make a seeminly good deal go bad.

And I have to think at this stage of Sasha's development, it's all about very subtle, small things that need to change. If those are the things that fall in that imaginary 5%.... Hmmm...

Good food for thought..

DG

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I think you have the point. Especially at something like bussiness contract. But again even you are fluent in one language if you are not a legal professional you still have the hard time to read those legal documents. However there are those 5% 'subtelty' that my my daughter didn't understand are the times when I use those 'BIG' words in chinese(usually from chinese literature) then I have to find a way to explain it in English without lose it subtelty meaning. It is really a chanlange for me.

Re: I regret...

Doggygirl said:

...even bringing up the possible language barrier as it is PURE speculation (not based on anything official from Camp TT or Camp Cohen). I think there is far too much speculation going on anyway for Sasha.

That being said, you mention that Sasha may understand 95% of what is said to her in Russian. As a business person (and skaters are business people for sure) understanding 95% of any important communication would not be enough to suit me. What can be lost in the 5% of subtelty could easily make a seeminly good deal go bad.

And I have to think at this stage of Sasha's development, it's all about very subtle, small things that need to change. If those are the things that fall in that imaginary 5%.... Hmmm...

Good food for thought..
DG

Click to expand...

You are right the language thing is speculation but early in their relationship TT herself said that their communication was strange to people on the outside looking in. While Sasha has said she knows 95% Russian we don't really know how much TT understands English. True Sasha knowing what TT says is probably more important but they probably didn't get into any real deep conversations either. Sasha reportingly did learn better Russian once she went to TT. I think I read in one of her journals that she was learning to read Russian and had learned the alphabet.

Like someone else said children of immigrants don't always speak their parents native tongue as well as understand it. Once they go to school English becomes the language they speak all the time and will answer in English when parents speak in another language. You also have to remember that Sasha's dad is not Russian. I don't know if he speaks the language or not but I'm guessing English was the main language spoken in the Cohen household. I would guess it was with Sasha's grandparents that Russian was spoken the most and if Sasha saw her grandparents a lot she probably learned the language early.

Regardless it is an interesting topic. It does seem that by 2nd generation the native tongue is pretty much lost. The grandchildren of immigrants may learn a few words but they are pretty much English speaking Americans by then.