Alissa Czisny plans to compete next season | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Alissa Czisny plans to compete next season

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So what if, as of the end of Nationals, Czisny has the best hard numbers, aside from the champion if she's second again? Isn't that pretty much what the situation was this year?

Well...LAST year, 5th at Worlds looked pretty good next to her 2 GP medals and GPF qualification. And Nationals indicated that at least she's on the upswing after GPF. Again, I had no problem with her initial selection to the team, but obviously something went very, very wrong in the 2 months afterward and no notice was taken of it.

THIS time, she'll have 22nd at last year's Worlds as a black mark. That alone could result in passing her up for the 3rd place skater, particularly if it happens to be, say, Wagner.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So do you want the world team not to be named the week of Nationals? Or make the assignment provisional on performance at Four Continents (or Junior Worlds if applicable)?

And would that confirmation by performance be determined by scores earned or by placements relative to the whole field or relative to the other Americans under consideration?

Or based on practice monitoring?

Up to what point would it be appropriate for a skater be pulled from the world team after being named? Even after the ISU deadline for naming the team?
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
she did place third in the FS behind flatt and wagner. but she had a 5+ point margin in the short that held her up.

She virtually tied Flatt in the LP. She should have placed 4th, atleast several points below both Zhang and Flatt. Had that happened and she still won overall, there wouldnt have been as much issue around her win.

Anyway the bottom line is it is very easy for the US judges to lower her PCS from what they are right now if she makes any mistakes, and nobody will complain or defend her if they do. Thus she will have to skate much better to make any future World teams.

In the SP,
Wagner double fted the 3flip - single the toe on the combo. should be -3GOE
Double fted the flutz. edge & double ft, should be -3GOE

Clearly what? She shouldn't even be on the podium

You have the wrong Nationals. At the 2008 Nationals Wagner skated virtually clean and landed a triple lutz-triple loop cleanly in both programs. Her only minor error in either program was a step out of a simple double jump in the LP. Flatt skated well too, but Flatt should never beat Wagner skating that well and with that content period. Nagasu deservedly won the SP but made mistakes in her LP. Wagner was clearly the rightful winner that year over Nagasu if it were marked properly. The mistakes you tried to point out where minor to what Nagasu's winning LP had which were a fall and some other major miscues.

It's a nightmare to contemplate Alissa again making top 2 at Nationals 2013 and having Olympic slots dependent on her performance at Worlds. There's nothing to stop her from continuing to compete through 2018 if she can stumble her way through the jumps and just depend on spins to guarantee her a spot on the World team year after year. :disapp:

Indeed which is why her kid gloves treatment is over. The USFSA are not stupid, they already wisely disposed of Flatt last season and after the debacle of the last couple months and with a good field of up and comers and young veterans starting to form, Czisny will be next on their list. Even if she is not dumped altogether ala Flatt, she will have to skate extremely well to make the U.S World team next year. No more gifts.

^ What Macy said.

I don't really see that Alissa is so outrageously held up in program component scores at nationals, in comparison to her marks internationally. In the 2011-12 season her PCSs going into nationals were:

Skate America 62.91
Eric Bompard 61.84
Garnd Prix final 58.45 (for a terrible skate technically, earning only 40 points in TES.)
61.83 U.S. Nationals

Skate America was scored as if it were U.S Nationals for the Americans, so they are basically one and the same. Czisny's performance at Eric Bompard was much better, while her performance at the Grand Prix final was closer to her US Nationals skate.
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So do you want the world team not to be named the week of Nationals? Or make the assignment provisional on performance at Four Continents (or Junior Worlds if applicable)?

Perhaps it would depend on the year, but generally, probably best to wait until after 4CCs- if not to name the actual team, at least to determine order of alternates.

And would that confirmation by performance be determined by scores earned or by placements relative to the whole field or relative to the other Americans under consideration?

Relative to teammates, of course.

Up to what point would it be appropriate for a skater be pulled from the world team after being named? Even after the ISU deadline for naming the team?

The alternate(s) need(s) to be on standby until the moment the team departs for the championship site.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The alternate(s) need(s) to be on standby until the moment the team departs for the championship site.

Yes, that's true -- in case one of the skaters originally named to the team gets injured or otherwise is unable to go and compete.

My question is, at what point is it appropriate to tell someone who was originally named to the team, even if only provisionally, "Sorry, we changed our minds. Cancel your travel plans, we're going to send someone else instead." And on what basis?
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I doubt the USFSA would do that gkelly. It would prevent participation in events like Challenge Cup if that would risk your spot, or perhaps someone who made the team pulls out of 4CC due to "injury" but will be fine for Worlds. If they want more data points they need to push back the announcement like Russia did this year with the ladies. I see no reason to make the announcement at Nationals because the decision is usually announced after the live telecast ends. (I remember in 1996 Dick Button announced the ladies team as being Kwan, Tonia, and Nicole, assuming she would get placed on the team with an injury bye.) The problem is that if you have a skate off at 4CC and the national champ wants to go to this important event, you have to narrow the skate-off down to two skaters and this year there were 3 women who I would have wanted to see fight for the 2nd spot.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
My question is, at what point is it appropriate to tell someone who was originally named to the team, even if only provisionally, "Sorry, we changed our minds. Cancel your travel plans, we're going to send someone else instead."

That's actually a good question. My whole basis is that world team members are monitored regularly, and are notified in advance that if they become (seriously) injured, or their performance level drops dramatically (not talking off-day here- I mean something like what happened to Czisny this year), then the right is reserved to pull them and send the alternate. For that matter, you could also monitor alternates (you probably would only need one session close to competition time, if one of the team members is looking iffy) but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary to do so. Considering that we've had withdrawals as close as the Friday before the event, perhaps the timetable could be similar? Up to the week before the championship event...but of course, if a pullout is inevitable, the alternate would have to be notified earlier- I'd say perhaps at least a week in advance.

I doubt the USFSA would do that gkelly. It would prevent participation in events like Challenge Cup if that would risk your spot, or perhaps someone who made the team pulls out of 4CC due to "injury" but will be fine for Worlds.

Regular monitoring sessions might prevent this. Also, waiting until AFTER 4CC to name the team would prevent the latter issue. You can even delay the naming of the world team until close to the deadline for submissions. There is no hurry to do it right at Nationals.

I even think USFS should consider moving Nationals back to early January, like it was pre-2007. This would give more prep time for 4CCs in the event of a skateoff, for instance.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
The monitoring sessions could be a good idea, but from a cost perspective it might be impractical. Our top skaters train all over the country and to pay for travel, hotel, etc. might be difficult for a cash strapped organization like USFSA. We also have skaters who practice great but may be weak in competition. I can see why the USFSA has decided to keep it simple and just pick the top finishers from Nationals but it certainly might not be the best way to field a team.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
You have the wrong Nationals. At the 2008 Nationals Wagner skated virtually clean and landed a triple lutz-triple loop cleanly in both programs. Her only minor error in either program was a step out of a simple double jump in the LP. Flatt skated well too, but Flatt should never beat Wagner skating that well and with that content period. Nagasu deservedly won the SP but made mistakes in her LP. Wagner was clearly the rightful winner that year over Nagasu if it were marked properly. The mistakes you tried to point out where minor to what Nagasu's winning LP had which were a fall and some other major miscues.

I had the wrong Nat. I posted 2 video clips of the correct Nats, and she did have several problems. Her 2A in the SP was questionable. In the LP, she messed up her 3loop combo. Her TES (even with clean 3lutz-3loop in both programs) was lower than Flatt's.
If it were marked properly, all of the flutz would be called, they would maybe downgrade the loop jump on her 3lz-loop combo. She would fall down even further.

It wasn't like Flatt's PCS was inflated to give her the win. She beat Wagner on TES.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Even if USFS lacks resources to do extensive monitoring (honestly, I think it would be a good investment after sport promotion), AT LEAST consider competitions other than Nationals in the naming of the world team and wait until after Four Continents to do so (this would give you an extra data point). 4CC would be good grounds for a skateoff if a) the results are close, b) someone with no prior experience takes Nationals by storm- this would weed out flukes, c) a historically good skater has an off-night or d) the "Czisny case" where someone with poor finish(es) at Worlds is in contention.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Too much meddling and micro-management, it seems to me. Bring everyone together and let them skate for it. Winners go on, losers go home.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
That's what Nationals is, Mathman. ;)

I also disagree with meddling and micromanagement of the World team. It's just been a series of unfortunate events in the last few years where one or the other or both skaters don't skate to their potential at Worlds. It's like there's a whole generation of mentally weak competitors who have no idea how to focus consistently. They skate well at Nationals, make the World Team and then have a BIG let down once they get there...How do you solve that problem without tinkering with the selection process?

Would any of you have considered replacing Sahsa Cohen with Tonia Kwiatkowski for a World Team because Sasha fell all over the place in practice during a monitoring session?
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I expect Alissa to get Rachael treatment at Nationals next season. To do this, the judges by no means have to hose her on PCS, they simply mark her based on what she does out on the ice and not based on her reputation.

Case in point, in 2011, Flatt was one of the ladies in the virtual 3-way tie for first after the SP after doing only 3f-2t as her combo (in the past, to be in that position after the SP, she'd need to hit her 3-3), then she had a mediocre FS for which she was given 121 points which gave her the silver and world team spot over Mirai, who skated similarly in the FS and should have been farther ahead after the SP IMO.

This year, she singles an axel but does everything else, and is 14 points out of the lead after the SP, 10 points behind Czisny who made the same mistake, and does not even make the final warmup. Then she has quite a good FS and earns 112 points (nearly 10 points less than what she got for her FS last season at Nats which wasn't as good), which puts her in a virtual 3 way tie for 3rd in the FS, but still behind Czisny in that segment even though Czisny made more errors. She winds up 6th overall, and that's an achievement b/c her FS was really quite good.

Next season I expect the same thing will happen to Czisny if she makes mistakes at Nationals. Without a clean SP she won't be in the top 3, and she won't get such a high score for a mediocre FS again. Poor Mirai got dumped by the judges at Nats 2 years in a row - her FS last season was really no worse than Rachael's, and her FS this season was really no worse than Alissa's, yet she was never the one to receive reputation judging and get held up enough to get the 2nd Worlds spot. My guess is next season, Ashley will be the one to get the benefit of the doubt/hold up should she falter at Nationals.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I also disagree with meddling and micromanagement of the World team. It's just been a series of unfortunate events in the last few years where one or the other or both skaters don't skate to their potential at Worlds. It's like there's a whole generation of mentally weak competitors who have no idea how to focus consistently.

At least with the women, like I pointed out earlier, it's really been just two skaters that have been contributing to the drag-down of the team (for the most part) in the past 4 years. But I do agree that the US has taken two steps back in terms of overall competitiveness, as is evidenced by the lack of a medal in the past SIX years.

Would any of you have considered replacing Sahsa[sic] Cohen with Tonia Kwiatkowski for a World Team because Sasha fell all over the place in practice during a monitoring session?

There's MUCH more to it than that. This is a case where you're trying to prevent things like what happened to Flatt last year (unreported injury), or a SIGNIFICANT drop in ability (maybe caused by injury as well).

In the case of Cohen, well, we're talking different levels of skaters here. Unless she's seriously injured, she basically goes since there was a huge dropoff after her. There is no such dropoff with Czisny. There are plenty of other girls that can do as well as, or better than, her at Worlds. I bet 5th-11th is doable for at least two other skaters.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Poor Mirai got dumped by the judges at Nats 2 years in a row...

Kind of strange when you think about it. After 2010 it was all Mirai! Mirai! Mirai! But the hype didn't translate into judge love at Nationals.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Poor Mirai got dumped by the judges at Nats 2 years in a row - her FS last season was really no worse than Rachael's, and her FS this season was really no worse than Alissa's

umm....for real??? That LP was COMPLETELY lifeless...AND the jumps were off. She deservedly placed below Czisny there.

In 2011 I could understand the argument for Nagasu being 2nd, although I was ok with the result (should have been much closer between the two, but could have gone either way).

Next season I expect the same thing will happen to Czisny if she makes mistakes at Nationals. Without a clean SP she won't be in the top 3, and she won't get such a high score for a mediocre FS again.

Let's hope not. If she is surpassed by others it's effectively retiring her anyway. But unlike Flatt, I say Czisny won't be as easy to dump- simply because like it or not she DOES deserve high scores if/when she delivers. But she usually does not. Judges might have the opportunity to put her in her place...not so convinced it will happen though.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Poor Mirai got dumped by the judges at Nats 2 years in a row - her FS last season was really no worse than Rachael's, and her FS this season was really no worse than Alissa's, yet she was never the one to receive reputation judging and get held up enough to get the 2nd Worlds spot. My guess is next season, Ashley will be the one to get the benefit of the doubt/hold up should she falter at Nationals.

Did you watch National? I was there, Mirai was so slow and she was a basketcase throughout her program. It was sad to watch. Her PCS (especially P/E, IN should be in the 3 or 4s) She was lucky to place 7th. I would put her out of the top 10.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Poor Mirai got dumped by the judges at Nats 2 years in a row - her FS last season was really no worse than Rachael's, and her FS this season was really no worse than Alissa's, yet she was never the one to receive reputation judging and get held up enough to get the 2nd Worlds spot.

Not really. Flatt got her on TES because Mirai got NO credit for the flying spin in 2011 and also Flatt's PCS was (in that case) deservedly higher in particular because her EXECUTION was better in that her mistakes were less noticeable and affected the performance LESS. Nagasu looked slow and tired at the end of her program in 2011 which is why she tanked the FSSp. In 2012, once Nagasu blew the jump combo, she basically flushed to whole program down the toilet instead of sticking with it. She was noticeably slow on TV/computer, lifeless, and made even more mistakes. While Czsiny had mistakes, she never let go of the program at Nationals.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
At least with the women, like I pointed out earlier, it's really been just two skaters that have been contributing to the drag-down of the team (for the most part) in the past 4 years. But I do agree that the US has taken two steps back in terms of overall competitiveness, as is evidenced by the lack of a medal in the past SIX years.



There's MUCH more to it than that. This is a case where you're trying to prevent things like what happened to Flatt last year (unreported injury), or a SIGNIFICANT drop in ability (maybe caused by injury as well).

In the case of Cohen, well, we're talking different levels of skaters here. Unless she's seriously injured, she basically goes since there was a huge dropoff after her. There is no such dropoff with Czisny. There are plenty of other girls that can do as well as, or better than, her at Worlds. I bet 5th-11th is doable for at least two other skaters.

It may just be those two in your opinion, but no one has really delivered at Nationals to push one or both of those two off the World/Olympic team, so in my opinion, those other ladies are either inferior technically than the two you want gone (in which case they shouldn't be sent to Worlds) or they are even worse at the mental toughness side of things than Alissa and Rachel because they can't handle the pressure at Nationals (in which case they shouldn't be sent to Worlds).

In the second point, where do you draw the line? If you want to institute post Nationals monitoring, then you have to set rules for it. What if there had been this monitoring and the rules were your monitoring session had to be "perfect". But what if Sarah Hughes was falling all over the place on monitoring day in 2002? Would you have yanked Sarah Hughes off the Olympic team and put Angela Nikodinov on? What about Sasha in 2002? She wasn't that well known and had already blown her one international chance at that point (JWs - 6th in 2000). She also wasn't particularly fast and didn't have good edge control. What if she had been falling all over the place during monitoring day in 2002? Would you have replaced her with Jenny Kirk? You may not be able to tell if someone is injured or they may get injured they day they are supposed to leave. Then what?

Please, which other two ladies would likely have finished in the 5-11 slots this season? Zawadski? Inconsistent. Zhang? Still rebuilding. Gao? Doubtful. Nagasu? Mess by that point in the season. Gold? Hadn't skated a senior length program at that point...
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
hate to break it to you people

but rachel has been held up since 2009, her jumps should have been edge call and some ur wasn't. her programs was passable at best. never skated for it. her pcs was higher than should have been.

mirai held up since frank even before next best thing since slice bread due to jnational win, over marked senior national win next year.
all times pc scores held up despite screw ups

alissa been held up since 2006 group left. pc wise. whenever u.s. has skaters especially women they want. they hold them up pc wise overlook, small misteps, urs edge call, speed etc. everyone has been held up but one.

everyone complained about zhangs lack of speed but didn't notice mirai, ashley, rachels and alissa's and or screwups , same type of skating
why didn't want zhang even though fight. had mentality. none of above ladies from 2008-2011 showed any kind of mental attitude.

they did it when they wanted to not before, during and after. all stated i should have been held up due to national champ, olymp, or this and that person is behind me. not to mention the so-called mentoring by the olympic gold medalist. did any of them pick zhang-no one wanted her, all that michelle was behind mentoring-wasn't . who mentored coached and helped all about skaters. kristi, brian, dorothy. i applaud tara for taking and answering question approach to ashley-which is what they should do ask question and then answer anything else is coaching teaching how to do spins, showing how to do jumps, spins.
did it help them no-it hurt them why-no they think we are on the inside and can skate anyway we want and get away with it. which is what happened .
the ladies are good enough but they have to apply themselves at all times and all competitions not when we want to , becuase it comes out wonky looking and not applying your best-just skating.
until this year at nationals that is what happened. yes 2010 olympic year.
all of them could have finished in 5-10 spot if wanted to and applied themselves-mentally whether they wanted to or not is another sotry.
only zhang would have tried. rachel 3 times none applied

most are waiting to give all to olympics how can they know all if don't apply themselves to try harder at each competition-they leave it on the floor in practice or don't know the have it in the first place.

you have to keep pushing yourselve to know what you are really capable of doing. you dont keep pushing-you plateau and then you arent as good as you think or wonder what happen.

ashley i am taking a wait and see approach as to next year whether she can handle it mentally or not. she did a good job this year.

but that is the problem, mirai, rachel, alissa done in one year-not two years straight. we havent had that since michelle/sasha, i would hadd kimmie in it.
the ladies have a habit not skating as wwell as they should . their mindset isnt there -only zhang but than they helped deflate it in prevboius 2 season.
 
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