Wagner clearly should have won in 2008. Rachael beating her down to 3rd was a crime.Originally Posted by Mathman
I do, too!Rachael should have won in 2008 and in 2009. (But she should have lost to Mirai in 2010. What are you gonna do?)
Wagner clearly should have won in 2008. Rachael beating her down to 3rd was a crime.I do, too!
Exactly, Czisny and Flatt have already been given more than enough opportunities and both have managed to deliver a respectable showing at Worlds only 1 of 3 tries. Both have also been repeatedly overscored at Nationals, Czisny in a huge way in 2009 and 2012, and Flatt every year until this year really, but especialy 2008 and 2011. Both are now on the downside of their careers and on visible decline. It is time to move on to other options. The USFSA already wisely disposed of Flatt in 2012, and now it is time to do likewise with Czisny in 2013.
The U.S #1 post should be Wagner's to lose at this point and I am pretty sure it is. Unless someone like Gold proves to be much more competitive internationally than even a good Wagner or Wagner completely loses her newfound consistency, Wagner will enter Nationals only needing to deliver steady performances to win, although hopefully with her growing confidence she can do better than that. The U.S #2 post should be there for the taking for Gold, Zhang, an revived Nagasu, a steadier Agnes, or any of the surprise youngsters who can really step it up.
Last edited by pangtongfan; 04-16-2012 at 12:05 AM.
Gracie said recently in an interview at JW that the triple axel is actually a really new and scary jump for her. I don't think she will be trying it in competition anytime soon. That said, if you are speaking further ahead than next year, I think it could definitely happen
In previous threads, I've already made the recommendation- that USFS examine their World selection policy and make various changes that I suggested (look at numbers, patterns, hold skateoffs in close contests, closely monitor World team members once they're chosen, etc.).
If USFS made said changes, it would inevitably make it harder (but not impossible) for Czisny and Flatt (especially Czisny) to get on the World team again. Past results would not work in their favor.
In addition to that, they need to judge nationals fairly and stop holding up favored skaters and holding down unfavored skaters. If they judged nationals fairly, they'd give Czisny lower PCS for mediocre performances for example (again, this would make it harder for her to get on the world team).
Keeping Flatt off the World team is ridiculously easy these days. Even in her days of better skating she sometimes had to be overscored Nationals relative to how she being scored internationally to get on the World team. Now her skating is nowhere near the level it was from 2008-2010, heck even 2011, they just have to stop the past inflated National scoring treatment, which they ALREADY did in 2012 so are pretty certain to continue now (in fact maybe went the other way and were a little overly harsh but better that then the other direction at this point, lol) and she wont come anywhere near a World team again.
For Czisny, well unless she returns to skating as consistently as she was in the 2010-2011 season, it is easy to keep her off too. Just stop inflating her PCS to compensate for her mistakes and weak jumps, stop giving her high scores for things like skating skills which she isnt even any good in anyway, and she wont make it onto another World team either. Even if she returns to her 2010-2011 level where while she was skating consistently for her, but still not doing clean performances hardly ever, if the other ladies step it up a notch, she still shouldnt make it if scored fairly.
So really one doesnt have to hold them down purposely. Just score the performances rightly, dont hold them up like has been done in years past, and neither one will make it anyhow (maybe an outside shot for Czisny in that case if she has one of her better outings and it is a so soish event).
But do you really think the judges at Nationals decided to throw extra points Alissa's way and disadvantage the other skaters? That would be highly unethical, since everyone should get their fair chance to claim a Worlds spot. I just can't believe that the judges would ever behave so unscrupulously. It goes against the requirements of their job to be objective.
There's a very good reason why Nationals scores in general are not counted towards a skater's official SB or PB.
I think it's more of a perception issue. They give Alissa tons of PCS because she is perceived to have the best artistry. The international judges are that way too except when she does badly, her pcs does drop quite a bit. (though at Worlds, she was still 11th in pcs, preventing her from being dead last.)
At nationals a that same drop doesnt happen when she does not skate well. (see nationals 2009, 2012)
The thing is, it may just be that Alissa's artistry is good; I do think she skates beautifully. The question is how the other ladies at Nationals stack up next to her in terms of beautiful skating.
I don't remember having too much of an issue with her 2nd place this year (the other contenders sans Wagner had weak LPs too). I did have an issue with her winning in 2009, though. She should have been at least 3rd in the FS if not overall.
But once it was clear Czisny was skating like crap AFTER being selected to the team, it seems there was inaction on part of USFS. Perhaps they felt powerless, I don't know- but this is where they can learn and prevent it from happening again. It's more than just marking fairly at Nationals. It's making sure World Team members are in shape and fit to compete because 2 months can be a long time...
Last edited by R.D.; 04-16-2012 at 11:55 AM.
In the SP,
Wagner double fted the 3flip - single the toe on the combo. should be -3GOE
Double fted the flutz. edge & double ft, should be -3GOE
Clearly what? She shouldn't even be on the podium
she did place third in the FS behind flatt and wagner. but she had a 5+ point margin in the short that held her up.
^ What Macy said.
I don't really see that Alissa is so outrageously held up in program component scores at nationals, in comparison to her marks internationally. In the 2011-12 season her PCSs going into nationals were:
Skate America 62.91
Eric Bompard 61.84
Garnd Prix final 58.45 (for a terrible skate technically, earning only 40 points in TES.)
61.83 U.S. Nationals
WHAT? That was '09, where Ashley finished 4th overall and paid a very high price for those mistakes in the SP (she was in 12th). In 2008 Ashley landed the triple lutz-triple loop combo in both in the SP and in the LP. Even with the wrong take-off edge, that was still by far the hardest combination of any ladies in the competition.
Alissa does seem to get relatively high PCS scores, even when she bombs. I don't like that aspect of the scoring system, which one has very little ( <10%) variation in PCS scores between a great skate and a poor skate. But she does pull those good scores internationally as well. It's a tough situation because any of the other US girls are giving almost 10 points in PCS for the competition, plus Alissa spins better than any of them, so she can mess up a lot of jumps and still end up ahead.
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