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Thread: WTT Free Dance

  1. #106
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    wallylutz, just saying, but the main reason that V&M lost at the GPF was because Scott fell on his butt in the SD, an event so rare in dance that V&M didn't skate the rest of the SD with their usual precision, further impacting their SD score. The FD was a virtual tie, and the 0.5 scoring error was far overshadowed by the cost of the fall.

    For Scott then to go off on the judging, which is what he did, was not particularly sportsmanlike, nor particularly wise. He apparently thought that he and Tessa had at least a one fall buffer for the win, due to his low opinion of Meryl & Charlie's skating.

    I had a record of the Story of Robin Hood when I was a child, sold originally by Scholastic Press. It had a herald singing this song to administer the Sportsman's oath to the contestants before the archery contest:

    Herald:
    A sportsman's always courteous, he never whines and cries
    And even though he thinks he'll lose, he goes ahead and tries
    He goes ahead & tries, my lads, he goes ahead and tries
    And he never makes excuses like the sun was in my eyes.
    Competitors:
    We will never make excuses like the sun was in our eyes.

    Herald:
    A sportsman still remains a sport although he's being beat
    He will not curse, he will not cry, nor kick out with his feet
    Nor kick out with his feet, my lads, nor kick out with his feet,
    and he will never, never, never, never, never, never cheat.

    This part is so important that I really must repeat:
    he will never, never, never, never, never, never cheat.

    Competitors:
    We will never, never, never, never, never, never cheat.

    Now granted this is over 50 years ago, but this oath has always seemed to me very like the Olympic oath, if somewhat more amusing:

    At the start of each Olympics, every athlete promises to play fairly and obey all of the Olympic rules. One athlete from the host country takes this oath at the Opening Ceremonies on behalf of all athletes. The chosen athlete holds a corner of the Olympic Flag while repeating the oath:

    "In the name of all competitors, I promise that we shall take part in these Olympic Games, respecting and abiding by the rules that govern them, in the true spirit of sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honor of our teams."


    Is the understanding of true sportsmanship different in Canada for Olympic sport than this?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-21-2012 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #107
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Is the understanding of true sportsmanship different in Canada for Olympic sport than this?

    No, and I find this offensive Doris.

    B&K put up with a lot during their career, and I'm not saying they ever deserved a win, but they did deserve fair judging as did B&S back in 84.

    We all hold individuals of each generation to the same standards as our own. It's sad, but they don't think they same way. I don't like what Scott did, but as someone posted on FSU who's been backstage many times, we wouldn't like what other skaters say either, some of them might even come from the US or Russia or France or Germany.

  3. #108
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    B&K did win, in 2003, and I stood and applauded them at the time in DC. They deserved it, too. It's a very happy memory.

    Pat C, I'm sorry that I offended you. That was not my intention.

    It is not what Scott said and did that bothers me. He did it, and I deplore it, but it isn't particularly necessary to me to go on about it, and I'm willing to cut him a break and hope he won't do it again.

    It's the defense of his actions as OK by a lot of fans that I find puzzling. It appears to derive from maybe a basketball or hockey view of sportsmanship, (two games that in my opinion, have very few sportsmen in them), rather than an Olympic sport view of sportsmanship. I'm probably woefully out of date, because I'm an old lady, but I tend to regard sportsmanship as a positive goal, and not some PC thing to be sneered at, which is what I keep seeing Scott's fans, many of whom are Canadians, saying.

    Frankly, I don't understand it, and I'm asking not for more excuses for Scott, but for an explanation of why anyone is making excuses for Scott. Clearly the desire to excuse this stuff is due to a different definition of sportsmanship than the one in the Olympic oath, and yes, my Robin Hood record.

    Heck, in hockey they even have a trophy to reward the few, the proud, the Lady Byng winners, who were actually good sports. They wouldn't have an award if it were such a common thing in hockey. What they have more of is people like Bobby Clarke who deliberately skated off the bench & broke Kharlimov's ankle because Canada was losing at hockey in the USSR/Canada series. And did they ban Bobby for life for damaging a player with a stick (shades of Nancy Kerrigan)? Nope, he continued skating till the 1983-1984 season, and became the GM of the Flyers. He's still a hero to a lot of fans in Canada for breaking Kharlimov's ankle.

    And so I ask, is the definition of sportsmanship different in Canada?

    I mean it was laudable for Bobby Clarke to cheat.

    And it's laudable, not just excusable, for Scott to blame the judges and whine.

    So I'm clearly not getting it.

    From what you wrote, it's OK for someone to be a bad sport because other skaters in the back halls of the rink are bad sports? Or because B&K got a bad deal from the judges? Again, I don't understand.

    And so, I ask?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-21-2012 at 09:27 PM.

  4. #109
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    Hockey is a sport I despise and I'm a Canadian. So, for what you see happening I can't say I disagree.

    I am not defending Scott, he did wrong. What I am defending is for all skaters, the right to be stupid. They're from a different generation, the instant and tactless and forgiveable. It's not right.

    I do mind that you think it's ok to think that badly of Canadian athletes. I don't remember thinking that badly of Nancy Kerrigan or Paul Wylie (and yes he did whine but it was before every single word was posted on the net). And I remember the ladies hockey game in SLC where the USA really put the Cdn ladies thru hell courtesy of bad reffing. But, we all remember things differently, don't we?

    Where I was going with B&K was that they were perceived as whiners, and they usually medalled, were they judged fairly? I don't know. Were B&S in 83 or 84? I don't know that either. At this stage of the game, it's pretty well subjective.

    What I question Doris is this....if you're going to critisize skaters for being bad sports, that's fair, but then it should be to all. Some are just lucky enough not to be caught on a mike, which makes that skater stupid. this is a saying I have used many times and believe in: Dont' credit to maliciousness what can easily be explained away by stupidity. Scott fits that profile.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    entire post
    I agree with everything you said, Doris. I don't understand how anyone can say they admire his honesty, or it doesn't matter because this event is "just a cheesefest", or that this is what all the skaters think and are saying backstage. I guess I'm woefully out of date too.

  6. #111
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I think bad sportsmanship is bad sportsmanship whoever is doing it. I don't think Scott is unique. I don't think Canadians are any more or less prone to it than Americans or Russians or whoever.

    I just find it deplorable, not refreshing or cute or laudable. I'm more than willing to chalk it up to stupidity in the heat of the moment.

    And yes, a lot of Americans thought Nancy was in bad taste to be dissing the Mouse Me too. I love the Mouse. poor girl. It was a stupid thing to say.

    I didn't watch the US/Canada ladies' hockey game, so I don't know what the story was? How were the US girls responsible for the bad reffing? Any game I ever went to, the refs were responsible for any bad reffing Did the US pick the refs at the Vancouver Olympics? I wouldn't have thought so...but again, I didn't watch those games. I did watch the men's hockey.

    BTW, maliciousness is a different (and more serious, IMO) character flaw than bad sportsmanship. I don't think Scott was being malicious, or that he's a malicious person.

    I don't think Canadians are responsible for Scott's behavior; he's responsible for it himself. Why bother to excuse it? Forgive it, sure, but not excuse it.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-21-2012 at 09:01 PM.

  7. #112
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    I don't think Canadians are responsible for Scott's behavior; he's responsible for it himself. Why bother to excuse it? Forgive it, sure, but not excuse it.

    Oh heavens, not excusing it. Willing to recognize stupidity when it happens.

    The ref in SLC olys was from the US and it was a dirty game. I was bringing it up as you'd brought up the CDN/RUS game back in 1972 or thereabouts.

  8. #113
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I didn't watch those games either.

    However, I've watched a lot of hockey. My husband was a goalie, playing for St. Albans, VT, in the Quebec Eastern Townships Industrial Leagues. My youngest son, also a goalie, played Can Am midgets, and played for his high school. Just never got into watching the girl's hockey.

    If the reffing was crooked at SLC, it should be deplored.

    But were the US girls just chippy (and not getting called on it, due to bad reffing), or were they deliberately setting out to break the Canadian girls' ankles? Because there is a difference.

    I don't think "everybody cheats" or "everybody whines" is an excuse for anybody that should be made, or should hold. But I'm old & Old Skool for sure.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 04-21-2012 at 09:39 PM.

  9. #114
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    I come from hockey country. I had to endure watching hockey on Sat nights. I hate hockey.

    So, some skaters say stupid things, actually most of them. Do some deserve flaying? Yep. Do some not? Yep.

    Are all of them Cdn? Nope. Does it feel like it? Sometimes. (I lived thru the SLC wars and have been scarred for life.

    Do I still have my sense of humor? Yes. I hope you do too.

  10. #115
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    Went back to watch the protocals with the top two and again the base value was almost two points higher for V&M add in the level 4 for the step sequence there was clear consistency from the tech panel it was the judges who decided to shaft them with there ridiculous GOE`s and PCS but then it all hit me and i remembered how much of a joke the WTT really is.

  11. #116
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    I love hockey. I suspect V/M lost because I was too busy rooting for the Vancouver Canucks. For that, I apologize.

    doris, I'm gonna argue that there's definitely a generational thing at play, because to me, Scott saying "I don't get the scores" (and whining about the GPF scoring in general) and saying "I hate this event" after a low score (at WTT) aren't actions that I could call deplorable. Disappointing? Maybe.

  12. #117
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    I don't agree with Scott's remarks, but really they are of little consequence in this competition. I'm sure JSF will not call Moir in Canton and ask for their money back.

    Same goes for the GPF.

    I do think it would've been cool to see W/P here.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatC View Post
    Is the understanding of true sportsmanship different in Canada for Olympic sport than this?

    No, and I find this offensive Doris.

    B&K put up with a lot during their career, and I'm not saying they ever deserved a win, but they did deserve fair judging as did B&S back in 84.

    We all hold individuals of each generation to the same standards as our own. It's sad, but they don't think they same way. I don't like what Scott did, but as someone posted on FSU who's been backstage many times, we wouldn't like what other skaters say either, some of them might even come from the US or Russia or France or Germany.
    Thank you for saying this. I too am offended and that is something I rarely say. I'm a Canadian and I admire Doris' Robin Hood oath. That's the kind of sportsmanship I believe in so I guess I don't fit the mold. I can't comment on any of the hockey references as I don't like it and never watch it. I am very disappointed in the tone this thread has taken. There is enough country bashing on other skate groups and a lot of it directed at Canada. I'm sick of it! I try to be respectful to all here. I'd like to get that in return.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    wallylutz, just saying, but the main reason that V&M lost at the GPF was because Scott fell on his butt in the SD, an event so rare in dance that V&M didn't skate the rest of the SD with their usual precision, further impacting their SD score. The FD was a virtual tie, and the 0.5 scoring error was far overshadowed by the cost of the fall.

    For Scott then to go off on the judging, which is what he did, was not particularly sportsmanlike, nor particularly wise. He apparently thought that he and Tessa had at least a one fall buffer for the win, due to his low opinion of Meryl & Charlie's skating.

    I had a record of the Story of Robin Hood when I was a child, sold originally by Scholastic Press. It had a herald singing this song to administer the Sportsman's oath to the contestants before the archery contest:



    Now granted this is over 50 years ago, but this oath has always seemed to me very like the Olympic oath, if somewhat more amusing:





    Is the understanding of true sportsmanship different in Canada for Olympic sport than this?
    Hi Doris,

    Thank you for your post. In terms of hockey, I agree with you that it is still very much an old boys club mentality in North America and well sportmanship leaves something to be desired on both sides of the border for both men and women. As a fan of amateur sports, I always try to appreciate athleticism and the psychology of an elite athlete. I have worked with elite athletes who are professionals and amateurs in North America (both female and male). Perhaps because I have this experience, I can truly say that I don't consider athletes as role models - because I have seen them with their guard down and it ain't pretty. And this is not exclusive to men. I am not saying that all athletes have horrible sportmanship but I would estimate that 15-20% are actually role model worthy. In addition, because of social media - athletes are packaged and media trained to death...so you don't really see their real personalities...and I would argue that professional athletes back in the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s were not the nicest of people all the time either. And I hate to say this, sexism and racism is still very much alive in olympic sport.

  15. #120
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by romanoff81 View Post
    ...but then it all hit me and i remembered how much of a joke the WTT really is.
    This is just what people mean by "sore loser." I lost -- therefore this is a stupid event.

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