2011/12 - That was the season that was | Page 3 | Golden Skate

2011/12 - That was the season that was

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Strongly disagree about going back to 6.0. You can't do that, not when so much has already been invested in the NJS. Instead, you have to figure out how to tweak it so you don't have instances of Chan or Kostner winning (at least not when they are off their game and clearly didn't deserve the victory).

Do nothing, and figure skating will continue to suffer a slow lingering death. I think a crossroads has been reached, and if nothing is done soon, the sport will reach a tipping point beyond which recovery is not possible.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder if such a tipping point has already been reached, at least in the US. Maybe not, if we can SOON become competitive in the ladies division again.
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Does the ISU want the tv contracts in the US/Canada or does it want to retain its Olympic Sport status? The IOC was just as big a reason for this change in judging as anything IIRC.

The IOC was obviously concerned about the corruption. However, the answer to that was to simply weed out and remove the corrupt officials, not to destroy what was best about figure skating. There has always been an element within the media who make snide and ill-informed remarks about figure skating not being a 'proper sport' and being 'too subjective'. But you don't go around pandering to people like that by removing what is most attractive about skating, and turning it into something that is monotonous and boring in the process. As the old cliche goes, if you look for the bad in something, you will surely find it. The answer is instead to focus on the good, and back in 2002, figure skating still had a sizeable following that saw plenty in the sport that appealed to them. There was never a danger of the IOC pulling the plug on figure skating. The ladies event had long been regarded as the blue riband event of the winter Olympics, and I think it still is. There is no way that the IOC is going to throw that away simply because of a carping minority of 'purists' within the media, who most people have the good sense to ignore anyway. Instead, the IOC simply wanted the corruption weeding out. However, in doing that, the ISU brought in an over the top solution which went way too far. The ISU may have invested a lot of time and money in COP, but that is no reason for keeping it. It is absurd to continue to invest in something which will simply continue to grind figure skating down in to the dirt - in doing so, you just continue to throw good money after bad.
 
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NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I don't agree with this at all. The judging system has nothing to do with the popularity of the sport. Only fans dig into that. This may seem unbelievable to fans who love to debate, but most members of the general public don't understand either system. As I stated yesterday, it has a whole lot to do with lack of trust in the integrity of the sport after SLC, dismissing figure skating as not being sport and therefore not worth the time and attention, lower participation in the sport due to the high costs to participate, other choices, and all of the above complaints, poor marketing and public education, etc. The very last thing the sport needs is to go back to 6.0. It would ensure the sport is kicked out of the Olympics for sure, and destroy any remaining credibility.

I'm pretty sure if you ask the athletes, they will much prefer to keep COP. Especially on the TES marks, they can understand and track their progress and their placement. Athletes are focused on continuous improvement. While you can't compare exactly from one event to the next, you can see steady improvement in PCS, and see the TES levels grow throughout the season. This is true from the newest competitor to the veteran. Athletes absolutely understand the system and pore over their marks with videos after every event. Under the old system, they could never know why they placed at a certain level. It was about reputation, putting in your time before being allowed to win, and honoring style over substance. That is not sport, and does not get a place in Olympics. Skating must be sport first, then art. The ideal is sport that transcends into art. There are still a lot of comments on the boards about reputation judging, relative positioning of skater (ie. if so and so were the country #1, then they would have medaled) and angst over new kids rising too fast. Sorry, but that has no place in sport. It's what you do on the day that should count, and only that....not who your coach is, what rink you train at, what country you come from, how old or young you are....if you bring it, you should win it. Period. That's sport, and that was what COP was to do. The system does a pretty good job of encouraging whole skaters, not just jumping machines or artistic wonders. It's not perfect, but it is a HUGE improvement over what was. Yes, I think there needs to be better definition/criteria and adherence in the PCS marks. And perhaps there is a way to do that so there is more artistic freedom (what Angelika called beauty). Perhaps we could have more transparency in who the judges are. And perhaps the judges can be secret until the time of competition, and segregated from federations and coaches so there can be no pre-competition lobbying. The PCS should not be used to place skaters or rank them like 6.0, which is what happens sometimes I think.

There is a word of caution in setting up a system to ensure Chan doesn't win. I seem to remember all kinds of whining and moaning when Evan won gold in Vancouver because he didn't have a quad. The system was changed to reward more risk. The results are more quads, and very unlikely we will have another Olympic champion without a quad. The downside is that there are many more falls from ALL skaters. These are technically challenging programs. These are people, not machines. Chan often wins because he earns enough points on the big tricks like the quads and on all the great stuff in between that he still ends up on top, even when not perfect. Take away the reward for difficulty, and the programs will be simpler, and maybe fall-free, but back to men like Evan winning then Olympics.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Patrick Chan was getting a lot of points even back when he couldn't do the quad. Wasn't he telling some reporter that quads were out and transitions were in back in 2010? Weren't people calling him "Transitions boy?" How quickly people forget.:laugh: I commend him on his picking it up, though. Hopefully next season he'll pick up skating clean and his problems will be over.

There is a definite risk of mid-level fans like myself getting mad and stopping watching due to the peculiarities of the judging system. Casual fans might watch if there's a scandal and switch to the Kardashians or something otherwise. They don't know one scoring system from another. Die hard fans will watch no matter what. But someone in the middle? At this point, I could go either way. Frankly, I enjoy the message board more than watching the competitions. Why pay for Ice Network to watch a competition where it's pretty much pre-determined who's going to win? Under 6.0 it was almost pre-determined, BUT they could lose it all if the "winner" fell and another well-regarded skater did not. Now the results seem based less on the performance of the actual day of the event as much as how well-regarded their "skating skills" are. And these skills probably don't change as much from day to day as the landing of a particular jump.

It's boring.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Poodlepal said:
Frankly, I enjoy the message board more than watching the competitions.

There are times (mostly within the past 4 or so years) that I actually enjoy talking/posting about skating more than actually watching it.

I like analyzing the protocols afterward. I also enjoy following the play-by-plays that people post of events in progress. That is actually kind of exciting. I can keep up with who is ahead or behind without having to watch the skating.

Does the ISU know that fans are starting to feel this way?
 
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conga

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
I don't agree with this at all. The judging system has nothing to do with the popularity of the sport. Only fans dig into that. This may seem unbelievable to fans who love to debate, but most members of the general public don't understand either system. As I stated yesterday, it has a whole lot to do with lack of trust in the integrity of the sport after SLC, dismissing figure skating as not being sport and therefore not worth the time and attention, lower participation in the sport due to the high costs to participate, other choices, and all of the above complaints, poor marketing and public education, etc. The very last thing the sport needs is to go back to 6.0. It would ensure the sport is kicked out of the Olympics for sure, and destroy any remaining credibility.

I'm pretty sure if you ask the athletes, they will much prefer to keep COP. Especially on the TES marks, they can understand and track their progress and their placement. Athletes are focused on continuous improvement. While you can't compare exactly from one event to the next, you can see steady improvement in PCS, and see the TES levels grow throughout the season. This is true from the newest competitor to the veteran. Athletes absolutely understand the system and pore over their marks with videos after every event. Under the old system, they could never know why they placed at a certain level. It was about reputation, putting in your time before being allowed to win, and honoring style over substance. That is not sport, and does not get a place in Olympics. Skating must be sport first, then art. The ideal is sport that transcends into art. There are still a lot of comments on the boards about reputation judging, relative positioning of skater (ie. if so and so were the country #1, then they would have medaled) and angst over new kids rising too fast. Sorry, but that has no place in sport. It's what you do on the day that should count, and only that....not who your coach is, what rink you train at, what country you come from, how old or young you are....if you bring it, you should win it. Period. That's sport, and that was what COP was to do. The system does a pretty good job of encouraging whole skaters, not just jumping machines or artistic wonders. It's not perfect, but it is a HUGE improvement over what was. Yes, I think there needs to be better definition/criteria and adherence in the PCS marks. And perhaps there is a way to do that so there is more artistic freedom (what Angelika called beauty). Perhaps we could have more transparency in who the judges are. And perhaps the judges can be secret until the time of competition, and segregated from federations and coaches so there can be no pre-competition lobbying. The PCS should not be used to place skaters or rank them like 6.0, which is what happens sometimes I think.

I agree with almost everything in this post. I also would bet that athletes familiar with both systems would much prefer to keep COP (and might mutiny with a return to 6.0) but that they would like to see an improvement in implementation, especially the PCS marks. It still amazes me that there are so many who want the return of the 6.0 system. Has everyone forgotten the lack of movement in dance from one event to the next? I am a forever fan, but never felt it was a truly objective measurement and certainly didn't understand it better. Where was the analysis? At least now, I can review protocols. Yes, I'm frustrated by all of the rules and some of the artistry issues, but I really want to see the sport remain in the Olympics.
 
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