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Thread: Yuzuru Hanyu changes coach to Brian Orser

  1. #136
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Oh lawdy, can we please not rehash any Yuna argument in this thread? This is about Yuzuru.

    And I just can't find it in me to worry too much about this change. Yuzuru, Nanami and Brian will all be fine, most likely! I look forward to articles and videos about Yuzuru's life in Canada. And I look forward to seeing the Canadian audience adopt Yuzuru as one of their own with all their Canadian warmth and friendliness.

  2. #137
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    An ironic element is that many years ago, when the Canadian fed encouraged Orser to leave his young, unknown coach (Doug Leigh) and go to a more experienced coach, Brian and his father said no, we are staying with Doug. It was a different situation, of course, because the Canadian fed does not pay the bills, so they have no power over their skaters' decisions in these matters. Brian stayed with Doug Leigh his whole career, and Leigh went on to become very successful and well-respected.

    Regardless, though, I'm sure Yuzuru will be fine. The Cricket Club has a very positive training environment, great facilities for skating and physical conditioning, plenty of ice time, and a friendly atmosphere among the skaters.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by callalily View Post
    An ironic element is that many years ago, when the Canadian fed encouraged Orser to leave his young, unknown coach (Doug Leigh) and go to a more experienced coach, Brian and his father said no, we are staying with Doug. It was a different situation, of course, because the Canadian fed does not pay the bills, so they have no power over their skaters' decisions in these matters. Brian stayed with Doug Leigh his whole career, and Leigh went on to become very successful and well-respected.

    Regardless, though, I'm sure Yuzuru will be fine. The Cricket Club has a very positive training environment, great facilities for skating and physical conditioning, plenty of ice time, and a friendly atmosphere among the skaters.
    That’s probably true. But the club is packed with elite skaters now and I think Orser’s team has some tough human management job ahead. That could prove crucial for Hanyu’s success with Orser, as I think for Hanyu splitting his time between Japan and Canada would be a bad idea. As Bluebonnet pointed out, testing out the change half-heartedly would be counterproductive.

  4. #139
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    It's believed that Yuzuru will give a press conference about changes of coaches after May 6th, when the bunch of public holidays in Japan a.k.a Golden Week is over. Not clear when he is actually leaving for Orser's base. Hanyu is on the list of Dreams on Ice shows in Yokohama in June 15-17 and Prince Ice World shows in Tokyo July 15-16.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    And I just can't find it in me to worry too much about this change. Yuzuru, Nanami and Brian will all be fine, most likely! I look forward to articles and videos about Yuzuru's life in Canada. And I look forward to seeing the Canadian audience adopt Yuzuru as one of their own with all their Canadian warmth and friendliness.
    Yes, whatever changes have been made, they are a done deal. Yuzuru has overcome incredible obstacles before and he is resilient enough to overcome pretty well any obstacle in the future. Best to think the best. Accepted. It would be nice to see Yuzuru give the popularity of the sport in Canada the kick it needs to re-jumpstart it.

  6. #141
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    The more I think about it the less I like this move. What Yuzuru needs is polish & as great as Orser is at packaging, polish is not something I think he's good at. Yuna's toe point & turn out never improved much under him, Adam's pumping still remains, & Javier's posture is still nothing to write home about.

    I think it is going to be very important for Yuzuru to get some polish because if he's still a podium contender by the Olympic season (which I'm sure he will be), then I'm sure we will start seeing some politicking from the Russian contention about how important polish & refinement is. They'll point to Plushenko, Gachinski, & some non-Russians to show how unbiased they are; & they will draw a contrast between them & Yuzuru. They'll do this because they'll have a point. That is, if Yuzuru doesn't get the necessary polish.

    As a side note, I just want to say that I'm not trying to make the Russian federation out to be evil & plotting. There's no reason for them not to do all they can to insure the success of their skaters & this is a logical course of action that I think is likely to be taken.While Takahashi & Chan certainly have their own problems as well, I think Yuzuru's youth will make him more of a target than they will be.

    All that being said, it is also just as likely that this move will turn out to be great & everything will be perfectly fine!
    Last edited by claphappy; 04-27-2012 at 11:04 AM.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by suezeeq View Post
    I don't see why people think Nanami isn't qualified to be his coach. True, he did have other coaches choreograph, but Nanami was still his main coach. Just because she hasn't had other amazing WC skaters? All coaches start somewhere. They don't suddenly just one day become famous and amazing. They all had to have their first good skater.
    If you ask me, I’d prefer Abe to continue to be Hanyu’s primary coach and Orser, Bobrin, Bestemianova, etc. to be assistant coaches. Unfortunately I'm not head of the JSF so my preference doesn’t count. But if one looks at the coaching history of Hanyu, then one would find that the JSF does have reasons to think that Abe is not the best coach for Hanyu.

    But I think that his feelings for Nanami are also very strong. He always puts his medals around her neck when he wins them because he gives her a lot of credit for what he accomplishes, he obviously shows great connection during the kiss and cry, and he's stuck with her since who knows how long ago
    I definitely think the JSF has a great deal to do with this. I'm pretty sure Yuzuru is not the kind of person who would just up and leave his coach after pretty much his whole skating career.
    Not really. Abe coached him for about 6-7 years. Before that, he was trained by another coach Tsuzuki also for 6-7 years. Tsuzuki discovered the talent in little 4 y.o. Hanyu, developed him from ground up, and turned him into Japanese novice champion at the age of 9. Back then people already labelled Hanyu “little prodigy” and held high expectations for him. As a young kid his jump and skating skills were superb.

    But soon after that Tsuzuki moved from Sendai to Yokohama, so Hanyu was forced to choose either to follow Tsuzuki to Yokohama or to stay in Sendai with his family. As a little kid he of course stayed with his family. But it was tough, and Hanyu almost quit skating. Then his family found a not-so-experienced local coach Nanami Abe who coached little kids at local rink. From the very beginning people already predicted that Abe-Hanyu was not the best match—he chose her just because his longtime coach moved away and there were no other experienced (and inexpensive) coaches around.

    Then as if to prove that prediction, Hanyu’s first two seasons with Abe became the worst two seasons of his career. He even lost to his same-age rivals Keiji Tanaka and Ryuju Hino. It might not be Abe’s fault, since Hanyu also got reduced ice time due to Sendai ice rink’s problem. Nevertheless, Hanyu’s two lost years gave the JSF reason to keep doubting Abe’s coaching ability. The JSF officials seemed to think that she was just lucky that she lived in the same local community as the prodigious novice champion, whose good foundation of skating technique was already built by his early coach Tsuzuki. Even after Hanyu won the WJC gold medal in 2010 some still complained that he could’ve won it in 2009 had he been trained by the more experienced Tsuzuki or some other better coaches. Thus, the JSF began to find a world famous coach for Hanyu since 2010.

    Even though Abe may not be very experienced and capable, I think she still tried her best to develop Hanyu’s talent. Like someone posted earlier, she has managed very well his day-to-day training with varying degrees and details, and this kind of work requires familiarity with the longtime student—something that would be difficult for a big-name but new coach to do.

    And Hanyu has trusted and supported her all the time. He trusted all the programs she choreographed for him. Even though some programs were not that good, he still skated to them with great passion. During all those years when the JSF and some fans doubted whether she was good enough to be his coach, he always put his medals around her neck. It looked like his way to show his support for her. And he has declined some offers by more famous coaches in the past. I think one reason could be that his family didn’t want him to be away, but it could also be that he just wanted to stay with Abe.

    But the JSF is clearly expecting more from him and has faith in overseas famous coaches (as it always does). This faith has been boosted especially after the works of Bobrin and Bestemianova helped Hanyu succeed this season. Not only did B & B help to choreograph Hanyu’s wonderful programs, but they also improved his footworks and quads. Thus, Hanyu’s great improvements gave the JSF more reason to believe that full-time training under overseas famous coach would work more wonders. But they’re ignoring that after he received trainings in Russia he also worked at home with Abe. I’m sure he and Abe reviewed things taught by B & B and digested the important points with her analysis and guidance, and that kind of work was equally important too.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    This faith has been boosted especially after the works of Bobrin and Bestemianova helped Hanyu succeed this season. Not only did B & B help to choreograph Hanyu’s wonderful programs, but they also improved his footworks and quads.
    Although Hanyu´s freeskate was beautiful, it was not smart choreographically as he looked totally exhausted after his skate.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by claphappy View Post

    I think it is going to be very important for Yuzuru to get some polish because if he's still a podium contender by the Olympic season (which I'm sure he will be), then I'm sure we will start seeing some politicking from the Russian contention about how important polish & refinement is. They'll point to Plushenko, Gachinski, & some non-Russians to show how unbiased they are; & they will draw a contrast between them & Yuzuru. They'll do this because they'll have a point. That is, if Yuzuru doesn't get the necessary polish.
    Yuzuru and Gachinski are about to have the same choreographer for their programs.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Although Hanyu´s freeskate was beautiful, it was not smart choreographically as he looked totally exhausted after his skate.
    Hanyu's long program skates are a race against his asthma. (You can even see him doing a couple of asthma gasps leading up to his final pose.) That last thirty seconds or so was all spirit and almost no air. (His lips were purple purple. And those were definitely asthma gasps when he was bending over after he had finished.) I am not sure that the choreography was off. I thought it caught his emotional capabilities and talents perfectly and it told the story (wish I had seen this when I was in high school studying Romeo and Juliet). I hope he redoes this piece again someday in the future (not likely with the coach change) but it was a real high note to end his time with Ade.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    Yuzuru and Gachinski are about to have the same choreographer for their programs.
    Hmm, maybe I'm using the wrong wording here. I was talking about how Yuzuru has wonky looking posture & carriage. Gachinski isn't the model of perfection in that area either, but I would put him above Yuzuru. The same for Plushenko. Granted, part of that is because they're both more filled out, but still.
    Also, Yuzuru just needs to work on making everything look clean & neat. He can look very frantic at times, which is something that neither Plushenko or Gachinski do (although, many would say that's because Gachinski is boring ((I would be one of those people))). Plushenko, for all his arm waving, never looks out of control. In fact, I'd say his greatest strength is that no matter what he's doing, he always gives off an air of having complete control of the situation. Yes, the franticness was enjoyable & appropriate for his Romeo & Juliet program, but I don't think there's any real reason to hold on to it.

    My point is just that there are things that could hold Yuzuru back that don't need to & I'm not sure that Orser is going to be the one to help him with that.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Although Hanyu´s freeskate was beautiful, it was not smart choreographically as he looked totally exhausted after his skate.
    I think the program tries to find a balance between being competitive and addressing his stamina issues. The program opts for a 4-4 jump split in lieu of the common 3-5 split for the backend jump bonus. There's a very slow section in the middle that allows him a respite before the next series of jumping passes.

    The Toronto club has a nutrition class and cardio/aerobic classes that could help improve stamina issues.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post

    Not really. Abe coached him for about 6-7 years. Before that, he was trained by another coach Tsuzuki also for 6-7 years. Tsuzuki discovered the talent in little 4 y.o. Hanyu, developed him from ground up, and turned him into Japanese novice champion at the age of 9. Back then people already labelled Hanyu “little prodigy” and held high expectations for him. As a young kid his jump and skating skills were superb.

    But soon after that Tsuzuki moved from Sendai to Yokohama, so Hanyu was forced to choose either to follow Tsuzuki to Yokohama or to stay in Sendai with his family. As a little kid he of course stayed with his family. But it was tough, and Hanyu almost quit skating. Then his family found a not-so-experienced local coach Nanami Abe who coached little kids at local rink. From the very beginning people already predicted that Abe-Hanyu was not the best match—he chose her just because his longtime coach moved away and there were no other experienced (and inexpensive) coaches around.

    Then as if to prove that prediction, Hanyu’s first two seasons with Abe became the worst two seasons of his career. He even lost to his same-age rivals Keiji Tanaka and Ryuju Hino. It might not be Abe’s fault, since Hanyu also got reduced ice time due to Sendai ice rink’s problem. Nevertheless, Hanyu’s two lost years gave the JSF reason to keep doubting Abe’s coaching ability. The JSF officials seemed to think that she was just lucky that she lived in the same local community as the prodigious novice champion, whose good foundation of skating technique was already built by his early coach Tsuzuki. Even after Hanyu won the WJC gold medal in 2010 some still complained that he could’ve won it in 2009 had he been trained by the more experienced Tsuzuki or some other better coaches. Thus, the JSF began to find a world famous coach for Hanyu since 2010.

    Even though Abe may not be very experienced and capable, I think she still tried her best to develop Hanyu’s talent. Like someone posted earlier, she has managed very well his day-to-day training with varying degrees and details, and this kind of work requires familiarity with the longtime student—something that would be difficult for a big-name but new coach to do.

    And Hanyu has trusted and supported her all the time. He trusted all the programs she choreographed for him. Even though some programs were not that good, he still skated to them with great passion. During all those years when the JSF and some fans doubted whether she was good enough to be his coach, he always put his medals around her neck. It looked like his way to show his support for her. And he has declined some offers by more famous coaches in the past. I think one reason could be that his family didn’t want him to be away, but it could also be that he just wanted to stay with Abe.

    But the JSF is clearly expecting more from him and has faith in overseas famous coaches (as it always does). This faith has been boosted especially after the works of Bobrin and Bestemianova helped Hanyu succeed this season. Not only did B & B help to choreograph Hanyu’s wonderful programs, but they also improved his footworks and quads. Thus, Hanyu’s great improvements gave the JSF more reason to believe that full-time training under overseas famous coach would work more wonders. But they’re ignoring that after he received trainings in Russia he also worked at home with Abe. I’m sure he and Abe reviewed things taught by B & B and digested the important points with her analysis and guidance, and that kind of work was equally important too.
    I had no idea he had another coach before Abe. I do remember seeing that he lost to Hino before though, but perhaps that was because he was getting accustomed to the new coaching. Nanami also had to get used to Yuzuru as a student too. See here is another problem with switching. Although it's true that Yuzuru is older now making the coach switch than he was when he switched to Nanami, I still think it takes a while for student and coach to get accustomed to each other. Yuzuru has to be able to understand English and work with Orser's training techniques in 3 months or so (learning a new language is no easy undertaking, no matter how brilliant you are), and Orser has to adjust to Yuzuru's learning abilities. I don't think it'll be easy to make the adjustment.

    Perhaps Yuzuru's old coach did give him the basics, but Nanami was still the one who helped a lot in getting him the quad and 3A (credits due elsewhere but mainly to her). And yeah everything you said seems to indicate there's nothing wrong with what Nanami is doing (training schedule, monitoring, etc.). I don't understand why JSF has so little faith in their own coaches. And especially now, with everyone flocking to Wilson for choreography, I honestly wish that Yuzuru would remain independent and not get sucked into that world of going to the same coaches/choreographers.

    To be honest, though I have done no research on the JSF and only recently found out their string-pulling through forums/blogs, from what I hear, I really dislike the JSF. Of course, I have no authority behind that statement, but just from speculations from fellow fans and what I've read, I very dislike the way they do things. Of course, I have no idea if other countries have the same thing, where they make a lot of decisions for their skater, but I find what the JSF is doing rather repulsive. : especially when it concerns my favorite skater.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Simply not true.
    It was a bold move of her to ask Orser
    who wasn't even a coach to become her coach. If she really wanted a Canadian coach strategically, she would have asked Doug Leigh the most experienced and respected Canadian coach. But, she didn't. She chose the Cricket club because she liked David and his coreography so much. As David revealed in the interview, he introduced Brian to her.

    It was not a bad idea to choose a Canadian coach for the Vancouver Olympic but how could it be a decisive factor? How impotant would it be?
    Did internationl judges give extra points to her because of her Canadian coach?

    Exactly..... You're right. That kind of opinion is silly. Then, Why nobody hires Irina Rodnina or Yagudin as a coach? Soch Olympics is just around the corner. They are even bigger than Orser in skating world as athletes, especially in Mother Russia. How about Platov or Gordeeva or Dmitriev? You name it. They're 2 time olympic champions. They got far more name value than Orser. And, they all have winner's image unlike Orser.

    Even Mishin hires Canadian, David Wilson and Italian,Camerlengo as his Choreographers, not Tarasova. If that sort of stupid assertions is right, tons of skaters flock together to get choreography from Tarasova by now.


    If I were Kim in 2006, I would never have chosen Orser with no name value as a coach, and was known as big time loser, which is bad for her image-making, While her rival selected Tarasova with always winner's image.(no offence) Why taking chances? I would take the easy road.
    Last edited by johnny 80; 04-28-2012 at 04:19 AM.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    Hanyu's long program skates are a race against his asthma. (You can even see him doing a couple of asthma gasps leading up to his final pose.) That last thirty seconds or so was all spirit and almost no air. (His lips were purple purple. And those were definitely asthma gasps when he was bending over after he had finished.) I am not sure that the choreography was off. I thought it caught his emotional capabilities and talents perfectly and it told the story (wish I had seen this when I was in high school studying Romeo and Juliet). I hope he redoes this piece again someday in the future (not likely with the coach change) but it was a real high note to end his time with Ade.
    Yes, and that is exactly why the choreography must be smart. Just remembering the freeskate (Romeo & Juliet) Tarasova created for Ilia Kulik for season 1996-1997 which was way too busy for a male singles skater and Ilia never managed to perform a faultless performance. Here is in one of his best efforts:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXy7qBMvvOM (includes a really enjoyable triple axel out of a spread eagle)
    Last edited by Jaana; 04-28-2012 at 05:21 AM.

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