04-26-2012, 07:40 AM
One does not simply skate into Pyeongchang
I believe, yes he may be 17, but Yuzuru is made of different material than others. When I first saw him, I thought "Oh, what a cute young skater. So talented and the way he is honestly really happy when he skated good is adorable." But then I read interviews, listened to what he talked about. He is very mature and what really suprised me is his extreme self-confidence. I just cannot believe Yuzuru is forced into situations, he doesn't want personally. He is not the type of person to be pressured, imho. So this move to Brian Orser WITHOUT Nanami Abe as co-coach (like the situation with Morozov/Nagamitsu for Takahashi) I think, it was Yuzurus decision. If he really wanted to stay with her, who would've said no to him? For what reason? Well, really unless he, Abe or Orser will say anything about it we'll never know. I just think Yuzuru has a strong character and there might even be some arrogance within him. Which is not bad per se, but I definitely don't think he is an innocent kid who does what he's told. No way.
Last edited by MaiKatze; 04-26-2012 at 08:27 AM.
04-26-2012, 08:07 AM
All the above comments make sense in their context.
I agree that Hanyu has the right to whatever coach he wants and whichever coach he deems most appropriate for himself. Whoever is responsible for the decision though, it could have been handled with a bit more sensitivity to Abe. I think that she was owned that much, by the federation and by Hanyu.
My impressions, correctly or incorrectly, are now tending toward those articulated by MaiKatze above. Nobody tells Hanyu what to do except Hanyu.
04-26-2012, 08:45 AM
What we see is only a news announcement. Why don't we choose to believe that Hanyu lets Abe know immediately about JFS's offering.
I think maybe Abe is very happy for Hanyu that he can have this opportunity to go abroad, and maybe she even encourages him to do so.
04-26-2012, 09:08 AM
I agree. If you really want to change, change it whole heartedly without looking back. Then you'll have increased chance of being successful. Is there any examples of long distance traveling for coaches and successful?
Originally Posted by Jaana
04-26-2012, 09:11 AM
Skeptic Satirist Critic Muppet Fan
Don't get me wrong. Nobody forced Hanyu force into anything, but if anyone is to broke this deal with JSF, they would present to it in such a way that makes Hanyu/JSF think they came to the decision on their own when reality could be another matter.
Originally Posted by phaeljones
When i analyse the whole situation, it seems everybody wins except Hanyu who have to travel across the world on 12 hour flight one way (24 hour return) just to get coaching? Athlete's bio rhythms are already sensitive matters that is why they prefer certain competition spots and will choose to give up certain competitions. 4 hour car journey already seems to impact Mirai's training and result in a huge way. Actually the reason not to stay with Abe as co-coach is likely to ensure he can't back out of Orser half way, and makes sense from sport brokering perspective. You want to ensure the deal go through.
JSF wins because Hanyu can get some world class cred, reputation and political pull from Canada next year, a key year to build reputation leading up to Sochi with the world championship take place in Canada next year. Guess what, exactly like Yuna Kim's path to Olympics gold where she won the 4CC in Vancouver the year before the Olympics. Hanyu can hope to win world championship in Ontario, Canada in 2013 [edited]
Sport agent get a nice 20% brokering fee and exclusivity to Hanyu for everything else in the future.
Orser get the best ready made student since Yuna Kim that doesn't require much work just manage the health situation, add polish and the team / environment set up, and play the media savvy game which Orser is exceptional at.
Hanyu? Poor lad, probably will go through what Tat and Mao did, half time here and there, lots of phone and video calls and probably miscommunication, while inadvertently taking a few steps back because of less supervision and management. Not ideal at all.
Last edited by OS; 04-26-2012 at 11:04 AM.
04-26-2012, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by os168
You have to understand when Kim moved to Toronto, at that time Orser wasn't engaged in coaching job. he was still touring the shows around the world. He was famous as an athlete, but not as a coach.
If Kim wanted to seek famous coaches in 2006, he never would be her choice. She would choose Tarasova,Morozov, Carrol,Nicks, Arutunian, Mishin, etc.
For example, if Stoyko begins coaching job today, Will you trust him as a coach? I don't think so, he is a famous skater, but doesn't prove himself as a coach yet.
Kim chose David Wilson at first, then chose the coach at the same rink. very unique way to select the coach. And as you know, Although David is a capable guy, he wasn't that famous then as Lori,Tarasova, Morozov...
I liked Rochette's LP in Torino, though.
Last edited by johnny 80; 04-26-2012 at 10:11 AM.
04-26-2012, 10:12 AM
Totally possible. Maybe even Abe pushed him to make the move to Orser. I hope that was the case. But given the rather terse statement, it looks like Hanyu basically pulled the trigger without blinking. Maybe further news stories and statements will clear up what happened, if Hanyu so cares to clear up any misunderstanding (if there is any).
Originally Posted by Kelly
I agree with os168 about whether this can be to Hanyu's advantage.
04-26-2012, 10:19 AM
Skeptic Satirist Critic Muppet Fan
Doh! You are right! I had a brain freeze! I thought 2009 took place in North America in Canada, but it was the US right? I got confused with 4CC in Vancouver where she won, I edited the post. I am refering the to the 2009 season where Yuna solidify her reputation to become a world champion before the Olympics in Canada. Strategically Hanyu would benefit from something like this, so they are laying the road ahead. Japan and Russia are already aligned anyway.
Originally Posted by johnny 80
Yuna is just special what can i say. The only one who didn't do the conventional safe route to success. She made a world class coach, not the other way round.
Last edited by OS; 04-26-2012 at 10:35 AM.
04-26-2012, 10:45 AM
No, Nagamitsu never left Daisuke, even when Daisuke was trained by Morozov. JSF told Daisuke and Nagamitsu that Daisuke had to be trained by Morozov because she did not have enough experience and ability to help Daisuke improve. Daisuke could not refuse. He had to obey JSF and splitted his time between Japan and New Jersey.
Originally Posted by figuristka
But Nagamitsu said she couldn’t leave Dai because he wouldn’t adjust well in a foreign environment/with a foreign coach. Even though Nagamitsu knew she was not a very experienced and capable coach, she would still accompany Dai to train abroad and she became an assistant coach to the big-name foreign coach.
Then when Nagamitsu saw Dai had problem with the quad, she felt her work alone would not be enough to help Dai successfully land his quad and so she enlisted the support of Honda to help Dai with the quad.
Nagamitsu is a lady with real class. She is not the best coach in the world (her work with her other student Tanaka can hardly be called great). But when she met Daisuke, she knew that she has found a rare gem and has cherished and protected it to the best of her ability through all those years. She has recognized her defects, and in order for Dai to improve she has been willing to share him with other coaches who would offer greater help to him in certain aspects. After all the highs and lows, after Morozov left, Nagamitsu is still there, by Daisuke’s side… and finally with JSF’s recognition as the primary coach of Japan’s #1 skater.
Everyone knows that the JSF would intervene and choose a big-name coach for all its elite skaters sooner or later. For the past ten years or so, the JSF has never given unknown Japanese coaches the chance to be the primary coach of its elite skaters—it did not give the chance to Nagamitsu, so I was not surprised at all that it would not give a chance to Nanami Abe, who’s even more inexperienced than Nagamitsu.
I’ve always thought that Abe would become another Nagamitsu and take care of Hanyu just like how Nagamitsu took care of Daisuke, since Abe seemed to be fond of Hanyu at the K&C. But different people have different ways. I was surprised that Abe left Hanyu, but you should not expect every coach to be as supportive as Nagamitsu, who even sacrificed her family time to take care of Daisuke. Abe has her own family and her own career. I understand her choice and wish her good luck. Maybe she can find another talented skater like Hanyu. Then I hope she doesn’t leave that skater because I’m sure that the JSF will make her and her student face the same tough decision again.
Unfortunately the JSF often makes wrong match ups. Last season when JSF chose Bestemianova and Bobrin for Hanyu, I thought that the JSF was finally smart for once. B & B assisted in choreographing Hanyu’s wonderful programs, enabled him to get level 4 on step sequences which he never got before, and helped with his 4T and 4S. But now this switch to Orser and traveling back and forth between Sendai and Toronto are just crazy!
Originally Posted by evangeline
I wish the JSF would have more faith in unknown local coaches, but the JSF is such a bureaucratic agency that you should not expect too much from it.
Last edited by doctor2014; 04-28-2012 at 06:32 AM.
04-26-2012, 11:41 AM
Like subtlety in ice dancing
So now we've moved onto the Blame Yuzuru phase of this discussion. Oh the drama! Unless we have actual evidence to the contrary, can we please just go with what is apparent here?
The JSF has a long documented history of making arbitrary and sometimes, counter-intuitive coaching decisions for top level skaters. They are on record as forcing older skaters with bigger medals into these decisions.
Yuzuru Hanyu is a minor under Japanese law. This coaching change had to have been in the works for a while, before he won World bronze. Now I know Yuzuru is very talented, special and unique, but how would a 17 year old kid with no major senior wins find the gumption and clout to defy the well established traditions of the institution that governs his calling in life?
Or maybe, some of you insist, this is actually something Yuzuru initiated himself. Again, we have no evidence of this. We do have the skating director of the JSF on record as saying, rather paternalistically, that this change is "necessary" to "raise the level of Yuzuru's skating". This decision fits entirely with the m.o. of the JSF. On the other hand, how likely is it that a 17 year old kid would want to ditch everything he knows and everything that's worked for him so far and everybody he loves to move halfway across the world to work with strangers? It might be likelier if Yuzuru was having a bad season. Maybe there's some internal drama going on that we aren't privy to. But turn up evidence of that and we'll talk.
But, but, why doesn't Yuzuru have Nanami move halfway across the world with him, too? Because she has family, friends, other students and clients in Japan!
Now all this makes it sound like going to Orser is the Worst Thing Ever. But really, it's not. Seemingly abrupt coaching changes and young skaters having to move to an entirely new country to train are nothing new in our beloved sport. Lots of skaters and coaches have survived this with their careers and feelings intact. So unless we get any indication that things did not go well, let's not be so hasty to assign blame to the skaters and coaches involved. Feel free to blame the JSF, though! I do agree with most in saying that this reeks of the old changing horses midstream error, especially when they were galloping along so well. And yeah, if it were up to me, Yuzuru would stay with Nanami in Japan. But I don't think this change is entirely bad with no positives whatsoever. I do think there's a good chance that everything will work out, and I look forward to seeing it!
04-26-2012, 11:46 AM
Talented skaters may benefit from changing the coach (Ilia Kulik and Alexei Yagudin to Tarasova, Yu-Na Kim to Orser, Arakawa to Morizov, etc.). Being talented as a skater or going to Harvard are not equal, two very different matters.
Originally Posted by os168
04-26-2012, 12:09 PM
This doesn't bode well for Chan coming to Orser. Why Canada doesn't use their own I am not sure - Brian should coach Patrick or Kevin. Patrick is in huge trouble without a technical coach.
04-26-2012, 12:13 PM
Don't worry. Patrick will not go to Orser anyways whether Orser accepted another top skater or not. But I share your concerns about Patrick without a technical coach.
Originally Posted by Skater Boy
04-26-2012, 12:22 PM
Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
She sounds like Linda Leaver.
Originally Posted by doctor2014
I am not too concerned with Patrick not having a technical coach. I think what Patrick will do now is find a coach to consult with from time to time. He may even consult with Orser himself when he goes to Toronto, which wouldn't get in the way of Orser training Hanyu. In fact, isn't that how Brian coaches? He doesn't have set hours dedicated to one skater, but they all skate together during the sessions, and if Brian sees someone needing work on something, he'd set that person aside, and have them work on what they need to work on (not unlike how the top ballet companies and gymnastics academies work).
04-26-2012, 01:18 PM
I totally agree. The news articles simply mentioned that Abe and Hanyu ended their coach-athlete relationship harmoniously, and his new coach is Orser as Hanyu wants to get trained abroad to enhance his skating skills. I agree with what Serious Business wrote. I think that this move has been planned by all parties involved for a while. I heard that Hanyu will have a press conference about this in early May, whether or not he will say everything.
Originally Posted by Kelly