Jenny Kirk is blogging again!

There's no need to rehash your resume to make your point. You sound like the very well educated woman from the subway.

My original point was: "No one knows what was inside Kwan's head, but Jenny at least understands the various pressures associated with athletes at the elite levels of skating."

My conclusion: "Whether she's right or wrong, I find her perspective more credible than the biased journalists who have no experience as a competitive skater."

And you somehow construed these statements as: "yes, A is impossible. But since person 2 has attempted A, person 1 should therefore attempt A because I perceive person 1 more qualified than person 2."

What is wrong with Jenny expressing an opinion based on her unique experience as an elite skater? Did I offend you by saying nonskaters may not be as equally qualified as Jenny to offer insight? What's the point of your rant?

Tonichelle said:

As much as I agree with you, I don't think I could listen to her commentary for an extended length of time unless her voice has dropped a bit...

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She has done some commentating and her voice has dropped significantly. It's actually really nice.

drivingmissdaisy said:

There's no need to rehash your resume to make your point. You sound like the very well educated woman from the subway.

What is wrong with Jenny expressing an opinion based on her unique experience as an elite skater? Did I offend you by saying nonskaters may not be as equally qualified as Jenny to offer insight? What's the point of your rant?

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I would hardly categorize my observation as a rant at all. I disagreed with you and found a fault in your analysis. Is that automatically a rant? Must you automatically make assumptions about me? And why have you decided I live in a subway exactly? Is that meant as an insult to my intelligence as well? As for my explanation of my current student status, I find that if I mention being in school right now online, people assume I am somewhere between 18 and 22 and speak to me in the condescending way that you did. I find that distasteful for two reasons: 1--If I were in that age group, that is still no reason for condescending tones and 2--I don't think it is fair to make assumptions about people's ages, experiences and intelligence based on limited online only interaction.

Sports journalists have a bad tendency to think that they can psychoanalyze their subjects. Most of them (and I know several people in the field) will justify that in the exact same way you justified Jenny doing it--that they have experience that makes them qualified to do so. "I played basketball in high school" is turned into mind reading ability and an advanced degree in sports psychology. Most of it becomes something that is not journalism. If Jenny intends a career in non-sports journalism, she would do well to end the habit now.

You ignored the major part of my disagreement with Jenny and yourself. I don't believe that Kwan or Browning's Olympic experiences were the same as Jenny's competitive experiences at all. With nine world championships between them, it is safe to assume that both had learned to handle the internal pressures of skating that Jenny wrote about. So then the question has to be what was different in their Olympic experiences? I noted that the big difference was the massive external pressure of being the favorite to win and of carrying their country's hopes. This is an experience that Jenny never came close to having. She was never even a favorite to win U.S. Nationals.

Well, Kirk's piece was a personal unburdening, not so much a journalistic exercise. IMO it would have been stronger without the speculations about other skaters.

Next entry. (((((Jennifer))))) pours out her heart and soul about leaving her coach.

http://www.jenniferkirk.com/2012/04/30/my-first-breakup/

Mathman said:

Next entry. (((((Jennifer))))) pours out her heart and soul about leaving her coach.

http://www.jenniferkirk.com/2012/04/30/my-first-breakup/

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ya beat me to it... looks like Evy's the one that pushed he dating *rumors* more than anyone else... poor girl.

he sounds a lot like Frank Carol in regards to Mirai, come to think of it

^ Still, the actual article that Kirk reacted so strongly to is pretty mild on Scotvold's part. It sounded more like he was saying, Jenny's growing up, has a car, probably has a boyfriend, she's off to make her own way in the world -- that sort of thing.

Scotvold did say he was hurt that Jenny never informed him personally of her plans, which I can understand from both sides. She (being 17) didn't know what to say to her coach and she let her father take the lead on her behalf.

Lovely post from Jennifer. I wish they could find closure.

^ Still, the actual article that Kirk reacted so strongly to is pretty mild on Scotvold's part. It sounded more like he was saying, Jenny's growing up, has a car, probably has a boyfriend, she's off to make her own way in the world -- that sort of thing.

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I also didn't see anything particularly damaging- perhaps it was the speculation that hit home for her- but again, reading that article and then reading Kirk's personal story brought home something really profound. That is, how little we know of the actual goings on behind the scenes. The part about the weighing of the students did bother me a little- wonder if that helped drive her towards the ED she spoke of earlier.

I'd be curious to see if other skaters take the skater-coach relationship as seriously and as personally as Kirk seems/seemed to. I can understand such a close tie developing for long-term relationships, but some skaters seem to jump from coach to coach looking for the right fit. How do THEY see the relationship? Also, I'd be interested in hearing the coach's perspective as well.

R.D. said:

I'd be curious to see if other skaters take the skater-coach relationship as seriously and as personally as Kirk seems/seemed to. I can understand such a close tie developing for long-term relationships, but some skaters seem to jump from coach to coach looking for the right fit. How do THEY see the relationship? Also, I'd be interested in hearing the coach's perspective as well.

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Scott Hamilton really went in depth with how he viewed his coaches (which included the Scotvolds for a time). Even though he had many of the top names in his career, he brought a little bit of each of their training to the table when he was on top... Evy was tempermental with him too. At least the Scotvolds are consistent. He left them to train with Fassi after his mother sealed the deal with the MacLoraines to become his sponsors. Then Fassi decided to play head games with Scotty and another Scott and Hamilton moved to Don Laws and the rest is history.

A lot of the coaches just seem downright cruel when I read skater accounts

So glad Jenny is blogging again!

Mathman said:

Next entry. (((((Jennifer))))) pours out her heart and soul about leaving her coach.

http://www.jenniferkirk.com/2012/04/30/my-first-breakup/

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But with this level of intimacy comes a responsibility ... After the initial honeymoon stage with Evy, I quickly learned he could be quite mean and downright vile at times. He would weigh his students every week in the lobby, in front of our parents, our peers and other coaches. For so many of his students these were the most dreaded moments of their adolescence and ones I’m sure still haunt them to this day. When a student’s weight was read out loud to the group Evy never mitigated or censored his comments. He knew just the thing to say to make a skater crumble in shame and embarrassment.

...

By that point in our relationship he had molded me so well that I would have done anything for the man.

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Yikes. If I hadn't known this was an article about Jenny's coach, I would have told her to dump her abusive, controlling boyfriend. Where on earth were this girl's parents?

Edit: Oh god, the whole weighing thing was done in front of all the parents and coaches. It just shows just because you can breed, it doesn't mean you are capable of raising your offspring.

The weighing in was not uncommon from the 70s to the 90s. It happened at almost every rink with more than one high level skater. I had a friend who used to purge *only* on weigh in day. Her coach didn't allow her on the ice if she was overweight from her expected ideal. It was a very public humiliation when she'd be sent home for the day. Parents either weren't aware of it or thought it was an ok way to manage the skater.

I don't agree with the humiliation/embarrassment/shaming method of coaching. But the fact that figure skating is (still) at least 50 years behind the times when it comes to sports physiology and nutrition, is just plain pathetic. Using weight alone as an indicator of athletic ability? How quaint. Surely even in the 1970s, they had methods of measuring lean muscle mass and body fat percentages and VO2 maxes.

On the other hand, teenage girls tend to like developing eating disorders. Is it a hobby, who knows? At least public weigh ins and shaming is a good excuse to develop one.

I didn't say I agreed with it, I only said it wasn't uncommon.

ah, cool then

Just read through the comments. Finally glad to get other perspectives/feedback as many of the comments are from former competitors or people involved in skating who seem to more or less agree with what she is saying.

It seems it might be a coach generational thing as well. Most of the coaches that *we* were aware of that did it were high level coaches around the same age - well established and well known. Some of the up and coming coaches who were working a student (or a few) through the ranks didn't do such things. They might have made a comment in private about a skater's shape to them during lessons or the like, but they didn't publicly humiliate their skaters.

In the off topic section of this board, there is an thread about how anorexia is not just for girls. Seems like a lot of wrestlers are also developing eating disorders in the drive to attains success in sports that are very much impacted by the athletes weight. I do believe that most coaches are not deliberately trying to encourage their athletes to purge.

Overall I think parents have the job of making sure that their child balances their desire to succeed with their overall long term health. It's not about saying 'you have to stop competing', but rather about teaching them that it's ok to not be #1. All aspects of parenting can be a potential landmine - sometimes it's amazing how 'normal' parents can have messed up kids and vice versa. it really is about knowing your child - some kids need a push while others need a parent to teach them to reign themselves in..... and sometimes there are personalities that just can't be controlled.

I was in the elevator at work one day and some woman I don't know started talking about her daughter and how she was in competitive sports. Apparently the daughter isn't great at it and the mother said that she keeps telling her every time, you just have to be more aggressive! Be aggressive! Be aggressive! Obviously, I don't know exactly how it is at her house but it raised some bells for me. I thought, ugh, that poor girl. She probably isn't naturally athletic and does the best she can.

I remember growing up studying ballet and feeling the way Jenni did all the time, although I never had anorexia or anything (I knew I would never be a professional bdancer and even though it was a bummer at least I kept my head screwed on) but at least my mom never cared whether I was no. 1. She just encouraged me to have fun and reminded me that I was getting a lot of out of it even if I wasn't perfet. I do remember one thing with my Dad: I came home one day after my very first audition and I was so pleased that I was cast as an understudy. That was really good for me. I didn't expect to get anything and it was a good first step. And my dad said oh, you should tell Mrs. so and so to give you the lead. It was just my dad being clueless but it stuck with me because of course, I was so happy at the prospect of getting to go to rehearsals for this beautiful ballet and everything and he deflated me. So I can sort of begin to relate to Jenni even though it's not really on the same scale. I had a similar personality growing up, wanting to please my parents, teachers, ballet instructors, etc.