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Thread: Jenny Kirk is blogging again!

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05 View Post
    It is a good piece. But I think it is presumptive of her to tell us what Kwan felt or thought in SLC. She was not in Michelle's head. It seems like she is projecting how she would have thought or reacted onto Kwan as well as Browning and Eldredge. She may be right about their Olympic experiences. But she may not. Those are their stories to tell if they choose to and their feelings and experiences were not necessarily the same as hers.
    I found her insight valuable. No one knows what was inside Kwan's head, but Jenny at least understands the various pressures associated with athletes at the elite levels of skating. Whether she's right or wrong, I find her perspective more credible than the biased journalists who have no experience as a competitive skater (I'm looking at you Phil). While I didn't feel like Kwan had lost the gold before she stepped on the ice, I did feel uneasy for her and Irina after Sarah skated so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I found her insight valuable. No one knows what was inside Kwan's head, but Jenny at least understands the various pressures associated with athletes at the elite levels of skating. Whether she's right or wrong, I find her perspective more credible than the biased journalists who have no experience as a competitive skater (I'm looking at you Phil). While I didn't feel like Kwan had lost the gold before she stepped on the ice, I did feel uneasy for her and Irina after Sarah skated so well.
    There is some kind of logical fallacy in this; I'm just not sure which one because I am tired and preoccupied with writing end of semester papers.

    If you agree that no one can get in someone else's head, then the notion that it is okay for Jenny to try because a) she has had similar experiences and b) other journalists try without having had similar experiences...that doesn't make sense.

    The argument could also be made that she has not had similar experiences to Kwan's or Browning's respective Olympic experiences. Both failed under the pressure of being favored to win. Kirk was never in that position even at Nationals let alone on the huge stage of the Olympics. She writes about internal pressure that she put on herself while Kwan and Browning were both also dealing with immense external pressure. Those are two very different things.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05 View Post
    If you agree that no one can get in someone else's head, then the notion that it is okay for Jenny to try because a) she has had similar experiences and b) other journalists try without having had similar experiences...that doesn't make sense.
    Where is the logical fallacy there? Are you saying it isn't ok for Jenny to have her opinion? Because she has been a SKATER I believe she is in a better position to express the mental challenges associated with competitions. No two experiences are identical; Kwan cannot speak for Kurt and vice versa. That doesn't mean that they do not have valuable insights.

    It is clear that, because of scientific limitations, we cannot currently enter someone's head. Just because you learned about logical fallacies in your college philosophy class doesn't mean they apply when you don't like someone's opinion.

  4. #19
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Psychoanalyzing skaters from afar -- isn't that our job?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Where is the logical fallacy there? Are you saying it isn't ok for Jenny to have her opinion? Because she has been a SKATER I believe she is in a better position to express the mental challenges associated with competitions. No two experiences are identical; Kwan cannot speak for Kurt and vice versa. That doesn't mean that they do not have valuable insights.

    It is clear that, because of scientific limitations, we cannot currently enter someone's head. Just because you learned about logical fallacies in your college philosophy class doesn't mean they apply when you don't like someone's opinion.
    Because I am a silly little 18 year old that has no idea what I am talking about so please enlighten me.

    I am a non-traditional graduate student who spent eight years teaching communications during the 16 that I taught a billion different subject areas.

    Basically, you said "yes, A is impossible. But since person 2 has attempted A, person 1 should therefore attempt A because I perceive person 1 more qualified than person 2." If A is actually impossible, qualifications for the attempt are irrelevant.

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    There's no need to rehash your resume to make your point. You sound like the very well educated woman from the subway.

    My original point was: "No one knows what was inside Kwan's head, but Jenny at least understands the various pressures associated with athletes at the elite levels of skating."

    My conclusion: "Whether she's right or wrong, I find her perspective more credible than the biased journalists who have no experience as a competitive skater."

    And you somehow construed these statements as: "yes, A is impossible. But since person 2 has attempted A, person 1 should therefore attempt A because I perceive person 1 more qualified than person 2."

    What is wrong with Jenny expressing an opinion based on her unique experience as an elite skater? Did I offend you by saying nonskaters may not be as equally qualified as Jenny to offer insight? What's the point of your rant?

  7. #22
    Custom Title dwiggin3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    As much as I agree with you, I don't think I could listen to her commentary for an extended length of time unless her voice has dropped a bit...
    She has done some commentating and her voice has dropped significantly. It's actually really nice.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    There's no need to rehash your resume to make your point. You sound like the very well educated woman from the subway.

    What is wrong with Jenny expressing an opinion based on her unique experience as an elite skater? Did I offend you by saying nonskaters may not be as equally qualified as Jenny to offer insight? What's the point of your rant?
    I would hardly categorize my observation as a rant at all. I disagreed with you and found a fault in your analysis. Is that automatically a rant? Must you automatically make assumptions about me? And why have you decided I live in a subway exactly? Is that meant as an insult to my intelligence as well? As for my explanation of my current student status, I find that if I mention being in school right now online, people assume I am somewhere between 18 and 22 and speak to me in the condescending way that you did. I find that distasteful for two reasons: 1--If I were in that age group, that is still no reason for condescending tones and 2--I don't think it is fair to make assumptions about people's ages, experiences and intelligence based on limited online only interaction.

    Sports journalists have a bad tendency to think that they can psychoanalyze their subjects. Most of them (and I know several people in the field) will justify that in the exact same way you justified Jenny doing it--that they have experience that makes them qualified to do so. "I played basketball in high school" is turned into mind reading ability and an advanced degree in sports psychology. Most of it becomes something that is not journalism. If Jenny intends a career in non-sports journalism, she would do well to end the habit now.

    You ignored the major part of my disagreement with Jenny and yourself. I don't believe that Kwan or Browning's Olympic experiences were the same as Jenny's competitive experiences at all. With nine world championships between them, it is safe to assume that both had learned to handle the internal pressures of skating that Jenny wrote about. So then the question has to be what was different in their Olympic experiences? I noted that the big difference was the massive external pressure of being the favorite to win and of carrying their country's hopes. This is an experience that Jenny never came close to having. She was never even a favorite to win U.S. Nationals.

  9. #24
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    Well, Kirk's piece was a personal unburdening, not so much a journalistic exercise. IMO it would have been stronger without the speculations about other skaters.

  10. #25
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    Next entry. (((((Jennifer))))) pours out her heart and soul about leaving her coach.

    http://www.jenniferkirk.com/2012/04/...first-breakup/

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Next entry. (((((Jennifer))))) pours out her heart and soul about leaving her coach.

    http://www.jenniferkirk.com/2012/04/...first-breakup/
    ya beat me to it... looks like Evy's the one that pushed he dating *rumors* more than anyone else... poor girl.

    he sounds a lot like Frank Carol in regards to Mirai, come to think of it

  12. #27
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    ^ Still, the actual article that Kirk reacted so strongly to is pretty mild on Scotvold's part. It sounded more like he was saying, Jenny's growing up, has a car, probably has a boyfriend, she's off to make her own way in the world -- that sort of thing.

    Scotvold did say he was hurt that Jenny never informed him personally of her plans, which I can understand from both sides. She (being 17) didn't know what to say to her coach and she let her father take the lead on her behalf.
    Last edited by Mathman; 04-30-2012 at 06:43 PM.

  13. #28
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    Lovely post from Jennifer. I wish they could find closure.

  14. #29
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    ^ Still, the actual article that Kirk reacted so strongly to is pretty mild on Scotvold's part. It sounded more like he was saying, Jenny's growing up, has a car, probably has a boyfriend, she's off to make her own way in the world -- that sort of thing.
    I also didn't see anything particularly damaging- perhaps it was the speculation that hit home for her- but again, reading that article and then reading Kirk's personal story brought home something really profound. That is, how little we know of the actual goings on behind the scenes. The part about the weighing of the students did bother me a little- wonder if that helped drive her towards the ED she spoke of earlier.

    I'd be curious to see if other skaters take the skater-coach relationship as seriously and as personally as Kirk seems/seemed to. I can understand such a close tie developing for long-term relationships, but some skaters seem to jump from coach to coach looking for the right fit. How do THEY see the relationship? Also, I'd be interested in hearing the coach's perspective as well.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I'd be curious to see if other skaters take the skater-coach relationship as seriously and as personally as Kirk seems/seemed to. I can understand such a close tie developing for long-term relationships, but some skaters seem to jump from coach to coach looking for the right fit. How do THEY see the relationship? Also, I'd be interested in hearing the coach's perspective as well.
    Scott Hamilton really went in depth with how he viewed his coaches (which included the Scotvolds for a time). Even though he had many of the top names in his career, he brought a little bit of each of their training to the table when he was on top... Evy was tempermental with him too. At least the Scotvolds are consistent. He left them to train with Fassi after his mother sealed the deal with the MacLoraines to become his sponsors. Then Fassi decided to play head games with Scotty and another Scott and Hamilton moved to Don Laws and the rest is history.

    A lot of the coaches just seem downright cruel when I read skater accounts

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