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Thread: Canadian Ladies: Where do they go from here?

  1. #61
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    Hi Callalily. That is exactly what I said in a previous message and what Tracey Wilson said on CBC. Canada is not willing to adopt the Russian System.

    Skate Canada seems like they are definitely taking a youth approach with the camp this week in Toronto. Don't seem like they put much thought into the selection process though. On the ladies side they took the top 3 senior from Challenge and the top 3 Junior from Nationals and a bunch of Novice. I am surprised that Gagnon is selected as she is already 18. All other ladies are 16 or younger.

  2. #62
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    Skate Canada press release titled "Up-and-comers set to attend Skate Canada National Development Camp" in Toronto, May 4-6, 2012: http://www.skatecanada.ca/AboutUs/Ne...S/Default.aspx

    15 of the 24 invited are women:
    Larkyn Austman, 14, Coquitlam, B.C. [N2]
    Alaine Chartrand, 16, Prescott, Ont. [S9]
    Roxanne Cournoyer, 14, Sorel-Tracy, Que. [J4]
    Gabrielle Daleman, 14, Newmarket, Ont. [J1]
    Madelyn Dunley, 15, Milton, Ont. [N1]
    Alexandra Gagnon, 18, Chicoutimi, Que. [S10]
    Zoe Gong, 14, Ottawa, Ont. [N7]
    Britanny Guiseppe Clarke, 13, St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Que. [N11]
    Shelby Hall, 14, Frobisher, Sask. [N12]
    Jayda Jurome, 14, Kelowna, B.C. [N-wd; won Challenge]
    Sandrine Martin, 14, Montreal, Que. [N5]
    Lisa Nasu-Yu, 15, Ottawa, Ont. [N9]
    Kaetlyn Osmond, 16, Marystown, Nfld. [S3]
    Haley Sales, 15, Kelowna, B.C. [N3]
    Julianne Séguin, 15, Longueuil, Que. [J3]

    Quote Originally Posted by hohoho View Post
    Skate Canada seems like they are definitely taking a youth approach with the camp this week in Toronto. Don't seem like they put much thought into the selection process though.
    Just curious - why do you think that?
    Last edited by Sylvia; 05-02-2012 at 07:33 AM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hohoho View Post
    "We need to identify those with talent, desire and drive, and then support them and their families with development opportunites, meaningful training, and funding. "

    That seems to be what the Russians are doing. During the CBC braodcast of Junior World's there was a segment on "Canada's Sweetheart". Tracey Wilson came out and said the the Canadian way of doing things will not allow this. Canadian coaches and Skate Canada are not prepared to go that direction and say that certain skaters are the ones they are going to invest in. Perhaps if coaches were paid a salary from Skate Canada instead of billing the skaters, there might be a difference of opinion. Russia has brought all the top young ladies to the same training area to be pushed by each other to advance their program. Do we realistically think that Skate Canada will do that? Who will be the coaches?
    After reading Jenny Kirk's blog entry about life with a powerful coach who has the last word on every aspect of training, I don't imagine that a lot of parents would want to entrust their kids to a coaching camp where the coaches would have the last word on every aspect of the skaters' entire lives. It's especially chancy for girls to be under the fist of a powerful, determined coach who cares only about winning in surroundings that combine the worst aspects of a military barracks, a fat farm, and a convent. If that's what it takes for girls to be skating champions, I say let them take up soccer. At least no one will be trying to keep them unnaturally small and skinny at the same time they're being worked half to death and "pushed by each other to advance."

  4. #64
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    There are a number of things that can be done. One is to make sure that younger skaters have a final flight,and that they are actively discouraged from staying down or staying home for an easy medal.Parents need to be told that staying down or staying home to medal is Not the means of attracting SC attention,and neither is assuming Section positions to promote their children the means of doing it either. Another is to hold regular seminars based on talent identification,and take the selection of skaters away from local Sections and their politics. Too often the best candidates are left behind in favour of the "darlings" of the local Sections. SC could make use of retired skaters who have no Section connections in determining who are the most likely candidates. My guess is that their lists would differ from the Section choices.Another is to encourage compulsory summer and early autumn competitions,again,inviting monitored skaters instead of Section "picks". Part of the lineup could consist of fresh faces who show promise. Also,release the judges. Why do we get the same old faces who can't do it year after year while better skaters beat themselves against a "sure thing" and eventually get fed up and quit.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by callalily View Post
    No, Skate Canada cannot and will not do that. The parents pay the costs, and decide where their kids will skate.

    Additional development camp opportunities, international assignments, final flights at local comps, etc., could be realistic and helpful.
    Skate Canada uses the American model. It works for us, but it's not working for Canada.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    Skate Canada uses the American model. It works for us, but it's not working for Canada.
    It works for Canadian Men. So the need is to figure out the pertinent difference between Canadian Men and Ladies programs.

    US, OTOH, seems to have the same problems with both Men and Ladies, so they need to figure out what the same contributing factors are.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    Skate Canada uses the American model. It works for us, but it's not working for Canada.
    It seems like American girls are either more competitive or they push each other a lot more when they are young compared to the Canadian girls. Are there a lot more competitions in the US for Novice skaters for instance to compete against each other?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    It's especially chancy for girls to be under the fist of a powerful, determined coach who cares only about winning in surroundings that combine the worst aspects of a military barracks, a fat farm, and a convent.
    Bwahahaha that's hilarious, and I don't even know what a fat farm is

    but I agree about the Bela and Martha Kayoli model of training young athletes

  9. #69
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    I haven't given up on Ksenia Makarova, she could be Canada's ladies saving Grace
    she attended skating shows again for the US, maybe her aim now is to get north american representation ( hopefully Canadian citizenship ? )

    Makarova I think can still blow Osmond, Phanuef and Lacoste out of the watter

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    It works for Canadian Men. So the need is to figure out the pertinent difference between Canadian Men and Ladies programs.

    US, OTOH, seems to have the same problems with both Men and Ladies, so they need to figure out what the same contributing factors are.
    Don't forget pairs--Canada has waited less for a ladies Olympic medal than the US has had to wait for a pairs Olympic medal.

    I think, the subconscious root of the situation lies in the societal type. I apologize if it sounds like I'm racially profiling a group, but up until recently, the US has seen success in ladies, and sometimes, the men. American society is much more about the individual, much more about success as an individual. Canada has that as well, but Canadians are, dare I say it, more socialistic, in that they also care about the whole society. Canada's strongest disciplines are dance and pairs, where it is more about harmony between two people. Canada has also had more success in synchronized skating than the US. Russia and China, come from similar societies, where the collective is not so much as valued over the individual, but is looked at importantly.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simoncat View Post
    Also,release the judges. Why do we get the same old faces who can't do it year after year while better skaters beat themselves against a "sure thing" and eventually get fed up and quit.
    This isn't realistic in either Canada or the US - judges are hard to come by because getting appointments is time consuming and costly to the person attempting to GET the judging appointment. Perhaps there's a reason the "sure thing" is being placed higher than your perceived "better skaters"?

  12. #72
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    There are club competitions in the US at all times of the year, and in the summertime, many of these are major events attended by skaters from all over the US. Some Canadian ladies also participate at Liberty (PA), Indy Challenge for Pairs (IN), Skate Detroit (MI), Glacier Falls (CA), Lake Placid Ice Dance (NY) and Middle Atlantic (NYC). When you look at the rosters for these and other events, you see the same names over and over, and they are usually the up-and-comers at all levels.

    Canada has several major summer competitions as well (Minto, Wild Rose, Summer Sizzle, Thornhill, Quebec and BC/YT Summer Skate). But you don't see many cross-over skaters at these events. Perhaps Canada should require that all skaters who would like to have a shot at international competition (especially JGP) compete at at least two different events in two different areas---and do both SP and FS.

    As far as "societal reasons" --- bunk. Russia and China are just as focused on developing strong ladies programs as they are on pairs and men: Russia has qualified three ladies for Worlds 2013 and China has qualified two. As for synchronized skating, the US has won bronze at Worlds two years in a row, while Russia has yet to medal in that discipline, and China has no synchronized skating team.

    As to Makarova skating for Canada: dream on. NOT going to happen.

  13. #73
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    The social effect shows more in Pairs between those of China and the US. The Chinese Pairs treat the relationship as a long term commitment while the American Pairs reflect and trial-and-error approach and the transient tendency.

    Canadian Men's field almost always has a world class leader with the Next One in line amidst a not so deep field while the US has a vast array of talents each with his own strength and weakness, but a strong tough Worlds contender comes only once in a while. The Canadian ladies, though without a deep pool, currently is much like the Americans, without an obvious leader with mental strength to perform well on the big international events. Heck, the Canadian Ladies don't even perform well at the Nationals. Kaetlyn Osmond may just buck the trend though. The girl has no nerves and loves to perform.

    When fans and maybe even the federation put hope on the return of an older skater, such as in cases of Canadian Ladies, as well as Russian and American Men, we know the discipline is in trouble. In contrast, Japanese Men's field has more rising talents than they can accommodate.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post

    Canada has several major summer competitions as well (Minto, Wild Rose, Summer Sizzle, Thornhill, Quebec and BC/YT Summer Skate). But you don't see many cross-over skaters at these events. Perhaps Canada should require that all skaters who would like to have a shot at international competition (especially JGP) compete at at least two different events in two different areas---and do both SP and FS.
    Pretty much all the serious single skaters will show up at one of Thornhill, BC/YT summer skate or Quebec. Minto is effectively an ice dance competition only ( all the ice dancers show up ) but the fields in the other disciplines are very weak. Wild Rose and summer sizzle are very small competitions that are held earlier and are seen as tune ups to the biggies.

    Most Wild Rose skaters will show up in BC/YT and most summer sizzzle ( Western Ontario ) will show up in Thornhill ( Central Ontario ). Some summer sizzle competitors choose to do Detroit instead of Thornhill.

    One serious problem is scheduling of the big competitions. Often, 2 or even all 3 of Thornhill, BC/YT and/or Quebec are held at the same time. It is especially bad for Thornhill and Quebec as many skaters there would be willing to go to both competitions but can't.

    IMO Wild Rose should be upped in importance ( so that all Westerners will go there and BC/YT). The Thornhill and Quebec competitions should never be held at the same time which unfortunately they frequently are.

    One of Thornhill/Quebec should be held much earlier than currently so someone has the opportunity to impress before the entry deadlines of the 1st JGP.
    Last edited by nadster; 05-02-2012 at 06:58 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    When fans and maybe even the federation put hope on the return of an older skater, such as in cases of Canadian Ladies, as well as Russian and American Men, we know the discipline is in trouble. In contrast, Japanese Men's field has more rising talents than they can accommodate.
    this is a correct assessment. The energy and resources should be spent on grooming the next generation, not trying to coax aging stars out of retirement.

    I remember last season, BC/YT was gonna pay kids who land triple jumps money in competitions? http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=76940

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