Canadian Ladies: Where do they go from here?

I don't know if this has already been addressed, but part of the issue is that in this current economy, working to be an elite skater isn't the drawcard (or the money crop) it used to be.

Even champions with titles are finding it difficult to glean corporate sponsorship, in North America television coverage has dropped off the radar, and there are no longer tours like Champions on Ice that offset the high costs of training.

mskater93 said:

This isn't realistic in either Canada or the US - judges are hard to come by because getting appointments is time consuming and costly to the person attempting to GET the judging appointment. Perhaps there's a reason the "sure thing" is being placed higher than your perceived "better skaters"?

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I didn't call for removing judges. I am perfectly aware of what it takes to become a judge. What I meant by "release" is that judging panels are made all too aware of the results SC wants. By releasing them,SC could let them reach the results based on what is actually skated rather than political or reputation judging. A few years ago a young,upcoming judge,who herself was a very good skater before retiring,and despite her success, was never a Section favourite was accused of being down on a very favoured novice. She justified herself by saying that yes she had a lot of talent,but every jump was cheated. This is what I mean by "relesing" the judges.

blue dog said:

Don't forget pairs--Canada has waited less for a ladies Olympic medal than the US has had to wait for a pairs Olympic medal.

I think, the subconscious root of the situation lies in the societal type. I apologize if it sounds like I'm racially profiling a group, but up until recently, the US has seen success in ladies, and sometimes, the men. American society is much more about the individual, much more about success as an individual. Canada has that as well, but Canadians are, dare I say it, more socialistic, in that they also care about the whole society. Canada's strongest disciplines are dance and pairs, where it is more about harmony between two people. Canada has also had more success in synchronized skating than the US. Russia and China, come from similar societies, where the collective is not so much as valued over the individual, but is looked at importantly.

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I think there are a number of reasons why pairs and dance are healthy in Canada, most important being we have a number of really strong coaching centers, and there is a general understanding that if one is going to be a serious athlete, one should pick one of these to train, even if it means moving. Because the numbers in pairs and dance are much smaller, there's a greater possibility of seeing success. The combination of fantastic coaches plus commitment and dedication from the athletes plus team dynamic to push each other for success plus greater opportunities for growth and development plus strong role models means a formula for success.

With ladies, there are not many really elite coaches in Canada. There are tons of girls in the sport. The odds of being one of those 4 ladies out of 50 in a section to make it to Challenge, never mind Nationals, are low. The season is then very short, with not many other opportunities until Summer. Therefore, few girls are willing to move to a major coaching centre. Few parents are willing to allow their daughters to leave home that young, or to shell out that kind of cash. And other things like school and other interests take higher priority.

I do think there are some societal elements. Krylova in a recent interview eluded to the fact some of the French and Canadian teams had to learn to accept her style of coaching. We live in a culture where our kids are coddled and protected. And it's an instant society that has no concept of long term planning, or hard work that takes years to produce results. Many teachers and professors will talk about kids with lack of manners and a sense of entitlement. Blunt, honest and direct feedback is not common. Every moment is an achievement even when it's not. While the Bela Karoly school of training may be one extreme, so many kids now live in the polar opposite extreme as little princesses. And it's an individualistic society where fewer parents are willing to make extreme sacrifices for the kids to participate in an expensive sport like skating, and fewer communities are willing to support these athletes in a meaningful way. It's unfortunate because skating teaches so many life skills that produce success in other areas throughout life, if the skaters have the right supports and are open to learning.

haven't read the thread, so i might be echoing the hopes of others that JoRo will return. I really want to see the mature Joannie have a chance to do the Olympics again. I think she is the best female skater canada has produced, and everything about her is world class. She has been an inspiration to Canada and the world. When I first saw her, I loved her sophistication. To think she was competing with the likes of Kim Yuna and Asada Mao, two amazing athlete/artists of all time in ladies' singles. Rochette belonged in that select trio. Come back Joannie. Canada needs you and your inspiring artistry.

chuckm said:

Canada has several major summer competitions as well (Minto, Wild Rose, Summer Sizzle, Thornhill, Quebec and BC/YT Summer Skate). But you don't see many cross-over skaters at these events. Perhaps Canada should require that all skaters who would like to have a shot at international competition (especially JGP) compete at at least two different events in two different areas---and do both SP and FS.

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If the Summer competitions are going to be used for assignments, then a couple things should happen: there should be a couple easily accessible across the regions (ie. Western Canada, Central Canada, and Eastern Canada); the judging needs to be standardized and of a high level. Regional keeps the expenses down. Local judging can be pretty head-scratching, and does not encourage cross-over. BC pumping of local dancers last year produced some international spots, but didn't really help on the International stage. Central Ontario likes to pump their athletes sometimes. Thornhill has been bad, and there aren't many dancers outside of section these days. Last year was very sparse. Western Ontario has a habit of being overly tough on their own athletes, which means those kids always have to produce much more to overcome the pumping of other sections. Minto is generally a good competition for dance because the majority of teams are not from Eastern Ontario Section so the playing field is much more level. It pulls the Ontario and Quebec teams, and the BC teams often fly in for both Lake Placid and Minto. I think Skate Canada needs to be involved throughout the year, visiting local clubs and monitoring development. This, combined with results from better judged competitions, should produce better decisions for international assignments and long term talent identification and development.

I think the idea of sectionals need to be tossed out. Let the Juvenile and lower levels train all year long and compete in a Provincial Championship later in the year. Pre-Novice and up can go to a regional competition to qualify for Challenge. From each Regionals (West, Central, and Eastern) top 10 qualify for Nationals. This would help getting the top 10 skaters from each region and not just top 4 from a section. I know the Pre-Novice and Novice groups could be large, but it would probably mean a "long-program" qualifier. Then skate short and long for top 40 (arbitrary number). Could actually cut it down numbers more for the long program. Quebec does this now so it shouldn't be a big issue. Similar to ISU qualifiying and competition. So from 3 regionals you have 30 skaters total. Drop Challenge and bring all to Nationals and as with only a few years ago have a qualifying event again to get to skate top 18 (Pre-Novice to Junior). Again, top 3 from seniors previous year are guaranteed top 18. So Seniors would have to be top 15 after qualifying. This way skaters are getting higher levels of competitions, more stressful competitions, and similarities to ISU events.

So right now, Western Canada can send 16 to Challenge, Ontario 16, and Eastern 24. The only reason I mention 10 for each is because Atlantic Canada usually don't have larger numbers. I know Challenge is being cut, but when you take in the level and type of competition at Regionals then there really is no need for a Challenge event. Provincial champions can be determined from this event (NS, PEI,and NB have combined Sectionals now). Most skaters have to travel for Sectionals, so travelling to a Regional event shouldn't be any different (especially with no Challenege evenet). Also, with qualifying at Nationals held, alot of these skaters that do not qualify for the short program will stay and watch the remainder of the event as a learning tool. And on a final note, bye's from events (approved by Skate Canada, not the Section) should not be permitted unless for medical reasons. I believe Junior Pairs at this years Challenge was not attended by some skaters because they didn't want to travel to Regina. Travel to competitions is part of the learning curve.

Simoncat said:

This is what I mean by "relesing" the judges.

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OK, that was unclear in your initial post. If that's the case, why not invite US judges to competitions? There are a few Canadian judges invited to US competitions in border states and it is interesting to see their different viewpoint from what is expected from US judges.
Interestingly, my club hosts the *last* competition before our Regionals and is typically very highly attended. Not only that, but because our chief referee has some National credential, she often invites judges who are quite well respected from areas beyond our Region. It's also typically a good indicator of what will happen at Regionals.

mskater93 said:

OK, that was unclear in your initial post. If that's the case, why not invite US judges to competitions? There are a few Canadian judges invited to US competitions in border states and it is interesting to see their different viewpoint from what is expected from US judges.
Interestingly, my club hosts the *last* competition before our Regionals and is typically very highly attended. Not only that, but because our chief referee has some National credential, she often invites judges who are quite well respected from areas beyond our Region. It's also typically a good indicator of what will happen at Regionals.

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I think that is a great idea-a fresh perspective from what a skating parent describes as the judges from certain Sections knowing what each skater has for breakfast every day. For the person who complained that her Section judges are hard on their skaters I can only say that coaches and skaters cringe when their skaters have to compete in that area because they protect their own skaters extremely against all comers.

She should have come back for the 2011 or 2012 Worlds. Those were her big chances to win a major title, in fact she probably could have sleptwalk to the gold in 2011. It will be much harder now, she has been away a significant length of time, she is getting up there in age, and the field in 2013 and 2014 will likely be alot tougher.

Simoncat said:

I think that is a great idea-a fresh perspective from what a skating parent describes as the judges from certain Sections knowing what each skater has for breakfast every day. For the person who complained that her Section judges are hard on their skaters I can only say that coaches and skaters cringe when their skaters have to compete in that area because they protect their own skaters extremely against all comers.

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I don't know the state of the club comps in Canada (or if they make enough of a profit for this to be feasible), I just am proposing things that have been shown to be successful for getting a well-rounded viewpoint in the US.

Surprising that SC didn't name Phaneuf to the Skate Canada Grand Prix. Is this an indication that they are not happy with her dismal International performances last year or did SC wake up and realise they have to develop their younger talent. Lacoste and Osmond got Skate Canada Grand Prix (Lacoste was a definite based on World Standings). Still one TBA. Hopefully SC chooses the right skaters for the JGP.

hohoho said:

Surprising that SC didn't name Phaneuf to the Skate Canada Grand Prix. Is this an indication that they are not happy with her dismal International performances last year or did SC wake up and realise they have to develop their younger talent. Lacoste and Osmond got Skate Canada Grand Prix (Lacoste was a definite based on World Standings). Still one TBA. Hopefully SC chooses the right skaters for the JGP.

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Based on who and who did not get selected to the national development camp, I think Skate Canada does realise the need to focus on the younger ones. They certainly did not realise this last season.

Last season Roxanne Rheault ( 17 as of July 1, 2012 ) and Véronik Mallet ( 18 as of July 1 , 2012 ) were listed as substitutes for JGPs ( even though neither got an assignment ). Roxanne only has a consistent triple toe and Mallet only has toe and salchow consistent.

Both of them were considered for JGP's last season ahead of Gabrielle Daleman ( 14 as of July 1, 2012 ) who did not even get listed as a substitute for a JGP . While her summer scores were overall slightly lower than Rheault's and Mallet's , Gabrielle was very consistent with salchow, toe and lutz over the summer and she even landed a triple flip in competition once.

If I was a SC selector last season, I would put Gabrielle way ahead of Mallet and Rheault. It is also a sign that perhaps Quebec inflates their scores in competition.

The good news is that Gabrielle was invited to the development camp and Mallet and Rheault were left off. Based on the selection list it is obvious that age went into it as most of the participants are 14 and 15.

SC may be hoping Phaneuf may get a replacement invite from another federation so another Canadian Lady may get the TBA spot in Canada. I think they are saving it for her for now.

Nope, replacement skaters are selected off the Seasons Best list, and skaters who have already received one assignment (*) are likely to be selected over those who haven't received any as yet. Note: skaters in italics are going to JGP

11 173.22 Mirai NAGASU*
14 166.94 Kiira KORPI*
15 166.07 Sofia BIRYUKOVA*
17 164.13 Polina KOROBEYNIKOVA*
19 162.34 Polina SHELEPEN *
20 162.20 Satoko MIYAHARA
23 157.83 Risa SHOJI
24 157.31 Zijun LI*
26 156.58 Vanessa LAM
28 153.84 Samantha CESARIO
30 152.48 Christina GAO*
33 149.71 Hae-Jin KIM
34 148.65 Polina AGAFONOVA
35 148.48 Amelie LACOSTE*
37 147.88 Joshi HELGESSON*
38 147.63 Rachael FLATT*
39 147.47 Cynthia PHANEUF

Cynthia's best hope for an assignment is to be selected as the SC TBA.

Yesterday, Phaneuf tweeted this response to an inquiry about her absence from the GP list:

Cynthia Phaneuf ‏@PhaneufCynthia

The way I read this, she seems fairly confident (or optimistic?) that she'll end up with at least one GP event.

It will be interesting how many Canadian ladies get senior B's to fight for the TBA slot. Phaneuf will get one for sure as will Samson I think if she is healthy and skates decently in Quebec.

Will Canada go beyond Nebelhorn for senior B's though ? That is very rare. Will Najarro, Charbonneau and Descantis get assignments ? Will someone else make huge improvements over the summer ?

My nightmare situation is that Phaneuf and Najarro both go to Nebelhorn with Najarro eeking it out over Phaneuf. Najarro has shown over 4 seasons of JGP's ( and one JW ) that she simply does not skate well internationally.

Anyway I am sure Skate Canada will focus more on the younger Osmond's and Daleman's of the world. It will take a while for the fruit to ripe ( if it does ) but our young ones (ie those 17 and youger ) are the only ones who can get us out of the ladies doldrums.

Does Osmond have to do a Senior B prior to SCI to get a minumum score or does her score from JW count? With the list of eligible skaters that chuckm listed above, there is no chance of Phaneuf being invited to another GP. There are some competitions that SC can use (Nebelhorn, Salt Lake City, Finlandia) to help with the "decline" in GP placings. Not sure how many SC can send to these events or if they are willing to assign skaters to these events. It is interesting that other countries are using the Senior B's to boost World Rankings

hohoho said:

Does Osmond have to do a Senior B prior to SCI to get a minumum score or does her score from JW count? With the list of eligible skaters that chuckm listed above, there is no chance of Phaneuf being invited to another GP. There are some competitions that SC can use (Nebelhorn, Salt Lake City, Finlandia) to help with the "decline" in GP placings. Not sure how many SC can send to these events or if they are willing to assign skaters to these events. It is interesting that other countries are using the Senior B's to boost World Rankings

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The JW score does count as making the minimum.

Generally Canada could send 2 ladies to each of the events you mentioned. They only send skaters to Nebelhorn most of the time. Even if they send skaters to other senior Bs the Nebelhorn bound skaters will always be higher on the totem pole for any TBA slots at Skate Canada.

They used to send more skaters to senior Bs until there was a situation quite a while ago when Canada entered 2 pairs to a senior B but it turned out they were the only pairs entered in the event. Hence all the money for no points ( not enough countries ) and no great international experience either. Since then they are reluctant to send skaters to events other than Nebelhorn.

nadster said:

[Canada] used to send more skaters to senior Bs until there was a situation quite a while ago when Canada entered 2 pairs to a senior B but it turned out they were the only pairs entered in the event. Hence all the money for no points ( not enough countries ) and no great international experience either. Since then they are reluctant to send skaters to events other than Nebelhorn.

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That's a ridiculous excuse. It's a well-known fact that few Senior Pairs show up for "B"s with the exception of Nebelhorn and maybe NRW S&P. For most of the "B"s, there are enough Senior Men and Ladies to earn points and provide competitive experience.

It would make far more sense for Canada to be very selective for Pairs, but why penalize the Singles skaters and dancers because there aren't enough competitive pairs in "B"s? It's cutting off the nose to spite the face. No wonder Canadian ladies are in such a sorry state.

Hopefully SC will take advantage of the Senior B in Salt Lake City this year. I think it was a big loss last year to cancel the Senior B at Thornhill.

Assuming that SC use Nebelhorn as usual and hopefully take advantage of Salt Lake City, who should be sent? Osmond hasn't skated Senior internationally. She should have went to WTT. Should she be sent to Nebelhorn or Salt Lake City?