How Levels & GOE are Determined in Ice Dance-Lifts

[dorispulaski]

http://fskating.com/2011/11/alexei-g...he-scores.html

You've all heard that coach Alexei Gorshkov and his skaters Ekaterina Riazanova & Ilia Tkachenko are planning to spend time at the Shpilband & Zoueva ice dance school this summer. This old interview article appears to give the reason that Coach Gorshkov is going:

Alexei Gorshkov: “I can’t understand the scores of Riazanova/Tkachenko”

November 28, 2011

Riazanova and Tkachenko received in Moscow for their free dance 76.90 points; lower than at the Grand Prix in Canada by 0.52 points. Two lifts and a step sequence have been evaluated by the lowest level.

“I can’t understand why the lifts were evaluated by the first level,” said Gorshkov to the media. In Canada the same lifts were evaluated by the fourth level. Similarly, I do not understand why the elements for which in Canada Riazanova / Tkachenko received low scores, in Moscow were rated higher.” he continued.

According to the coach, trying to find out from the technical specialists the reasons for such discrepancies is meaningless.

“It’s useless to ask them questions. First, I know what they will answer me and second, in spite of their answers we can take video tapes of two performances and compare them. And what do I do after that – submit a protest? Nonsense is obtained.” Gorshkov noted.

“I can’t understand how the step sequence of Riazanova / Tkachenko was evaluated by the first level. They could just execute simple steps and still receive the same score.” he added.

Thus the expert has noticed that the same technical team has estimated the short dance elements of his students by normal levels.

“Apparently, there are some trends that we do not know. And if we do not know about them, then talk about it makes no sense.” concluded the coach.

It sounds like Coach Gorshkov has significant questions about how the technical callers and controllers in ice dance assign levels. Certainly, Igor Shpilband has mastered that skill as well as any other coach.

One hopes, that at the end of this summer course, both coach and students will understand the system better.

I've threatened for a while to try to take apart the specifications for assigning levels in ice dance, but have kept putting it off. One reason was that I found it hard to know where to start. The other reason was that I wished to separate this discussion from the discussion of Worlds and World Team Trophy results.

The intent of this thread is to help us all understand the current rules as well as possible, not to elevate or denigrate any team or coach. If we all do it well, it will be transferred to the Reference folder when it has died as a thread on the edge.

I want to caution you again that I do not know any more about this subject than any other serious fan, so feel free to add, subtract or disagree with anything I say.

I intend to start the series with Rotational Lifts, in honor of the questions about the level one Coach Gorshkov's students received for those lifts at Cup of Russia.

While I'm trying to put everything together, please post any questions or comments you have, especially about Rotational Lifts?

Thanks for reading, Doris P

[dorispulaski]

All the ISU Communications say that the level of each skill is by a majority vote of the tech panel, which consists of the technical specialist, the assistant technical specialist, and the technical controller.

The USFS website describes it like this:

http://www.usfsa.org/New_Judging.asp?id=289

The technical panel is generally made up of five persons: technical specialist, assistant technical specialist, technical controller, data operator and video replay operator. This panel works in direct communication with each other as each skater performs a program. In real time as the skater performs, the technical specialist identifies the elements the skater performs. For example, for spins, they identify the type of spin and the level of difficulty of that element based on published pre-set criteria. The work of the technical specialist allows the judge to concentrate on marking the quality of each element. Technical specialists have to meet certain qualifications and testing to be appointed to the position. Most technical specialists are national and international skaters or coaches and are involved in skating on a regular basis. When an element is identified by the technical specialist it is also referred to as the "call".

The assistant technical specialist and the technical controller support the technical specialist to ensure that any potential mistakes are corrected immediately. The technical controller is the leader of the technical panel, just as the referee is the leader of the judges' panel. Any element can be reviewed by the technical controller, the technical specialist or the assistant technical specialist. The judges can ask for a review of an element by notifying the technical panel. All final decisions made on elements and levels will be made from the majority opinion of the three technical positions. At the U.S. Figure Skating Championships, each of these people are recorded with an audio tape during each program, and video clips are available to verify the calls. The elements are available for review after a skater's performance and calls can be changed accordingly. Calls and scores are final once they are posted, any protests for calculation errors resolved, and results are announced to the public. Each season a technical panel error correction protocol and video replay protocol is posted on the U.S. Figure Skating website for clarification.

The video replay operator does exactly what it seems! If a video system is being utilized at a competition, this person video tapes all the elements that are scored. The video is available to the technical panel for their review of any element to ensure that the correct assessment of the element was made. If there is video replay available to the judges, this videotape can be viewed by the judges for their analysis of the quality and/or errors made on any given element.

The data operator enters all the coding for the elements onto either paper or the computer as they are performed and the levels of difficulty are assigned.

Now I have heard this process described differently, as to how tasks are split up among the three members of the tech panel, but essentially it all ends up with a majority vote: in otherwords, it takes 2 members agreeing to assign a level.

So now that we have a panel and replay support, let's take a look at the rules that we are to apply for the first skill, a rotational lift:

[dorispulaski]

All of the technical specifications look like a Chinese restaurant menu. Somewhat deconstructed, here's how it looks:

The following are quoted from ISU Communication 1677, July 1, 2011:

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=2635
Corrections and amendments to Communication 1677 are found in ISU Communication 1686:
www.usfsa.org/Content/ISU%20Comm%201686.pdf

Of course, there will be a new set of rules this July, and there will be updates to be made to this file, but these are the rotational lift rules for the 2011 to 2012 season:

Level 1

For a lift to be called a rotational lift, the lifted partner must be aloft for 3 rotations, and the lifting partner must complete 3 rotations.

Level 2 has 2 options:

Option 1
Lifted partner holds a difficult pose through at least 3 rotations, or performs a change of pose, and Lifting partner moves through at least 4 rotations


Option 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/Arm Lift through at least 2 rotations

Level 3 has two options
Option 1
Lifted partner holds a difficult pose through at least 4 rotations, or performs a change of pose, and Lifting partner moves through at least 5 rotations

Option 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/Arm Lift through at least 4 rotations

Level 4
Option 1a:
Requirements for Level 3, Option 1, plus Creative/Difficult Entry

Option 1b:
Lifted partner holds a difficult pose through at least 5 rotations, or performs a change of pose, and Lifting partner moves through at least 6 rotations

Option2
Requirements for Level 3, Option 2, plus One Hand/Arm Rotational Lift extra feature, which consists of:
. Lifting partner on one foot for at least one rotation
. and/or lifting partner changes the level of his skating leg/knee significantly during rotation
. and/or lifting partner's arm is fully extended in front with a significant distance between the partners

Then the document goes on to define some of the terms from the above menu:


5.4.2. ADDITIONAL DEFINITIONS, SPECIFICATIONS TO DEFINITIONS AND NOTES

First it describes the options for the lifted partner (usually the lady). She may be displaying a difficult position, or a change of position:

Difficult Pose for lifted partner (examples):

a) Full split: when the legs of the lifted partner are extended in one line with the angle between thighs about 180 degrees;
b) full “Biellmann”: body upright with the heel of the boot pulled by the hand behind and above the level of the head;
c) full doughnut/ring: upper body arched back, with one or both feet almost touching the head in a full circle (maximum of half a blade length between head and blade);
d) upside down combined with difficult hold;
e) from a vertical position lady is cantilevered out: lady’s torso is extended away from the man and the only one additional point of support are the hands;
f) balancing in a horizontal position with only one additional point of support;
g) leaning out (forwards or backwards) with the only one additional point of support being the legs;
h) full layback with arched pose with no support from the lifting partner above the thigh;
i) extended out with the majority of body weight in a horizontal line with the only one additional point of support being shoulders and/ or upper back.

Since we now have the four lift option, there can be two short rotational lifts in a program. There also can be a short rotational lift, and additionally, a rotational lift can be part of a combination lift. To ensure there isn't a lot of repetition of poses, the following rule is in place:

Notes:
a chosen example of Difficult Pose shall be considered for Level only the first time it occurs, whether it be in a Short Lift or in a part of Long Lift;

Examples b) (full “Biellmann) and c) (full doughnut/ring) shall be considered as the same example of Difficult Pose.

Change of Pose for lifted partner:
A Change of Pose shall be considered for Level if it fulfills the following characteristics:
lifting partner changes hold and lifted partner changes hold and body pose so that it is a significant change (i.e. a photographer would produce two different photos). A mere change of position of arm(s) and/or legs, changing to the reverse side (mirror) or changing the height of the body is not enough to constitute a Change of Pose;

the change of body pose and changes of hold occur simultaneously;
each pose, preceding and following the change is clearly defined and the first pose is attained and clearly shown prior to the change to the second pose;

in Rotational Lifts, the movement through the Change of Pose occurs during rotations of both lifting and lifted partners.
Note: Changes of Pose shall be considered for Level only the first two times they occur, whether they are in Short Lifts or in parts of Long Lift.

For the lifting partner, not all of these options are possible for a rotational lift, but I'm keeping them here in one place. We'll see this list again when we discuss curved lifts and straight line lifts:

Difficult Position for lifting partner (examples):
a) one foot;
b) Shoot the Duck (thigh at least parallel to the ice) with any position of free leg;
c) Spread Eagle – inside: same edges (one forward one backward) on the same curve;
d) Spread Eagle – outside: same edges (one forward one backward) on the same curve;
e) Spread Eagle – on a straight line (for Straight Line Lift only): same edges (one forward, one backward) on the same line;
f) Ina Bauer: same or different edge (one forward one backward) on parallel tracing;
g) Crouch with two knees bent (thighs at least parallel to the ice) on two feet;
h) Crouch with one knee bent (thigh at least parallel to the ice) on two feet with one leg extended to side;
i) Lunge (thigh at least parallel to the ice) with any position of free leg;
j) One Hand/Arm Lift: with no contact other than the lifting partner’s hand/arm and the lifted partner.

Notes:
Examples g) h) and i) (Crouch or Lunge) shall not be considered for Level in a Stationary Lift which is not rotating;

A chosen example of Difficult Position shall be considered for Level only the first time it occurs, whether it be in a Short Lift or in a part of Long Lift (exception: Reverse Rotational Lift Levels 3 and 4 Option 2, where the One Hand/Arm Lift is considered for Level in both directions);

if the three different examples of Spread Eagle (c), d) and e)) are performed, only the twoc first performed different examples shall be considered for Level;

if an Ina Bauer (example f) skated on same edges) and an example of Spread Eagle (c), d) or e)) are performed on the same edges, only the first performed of the two Difficult Positions shall be considered for Level.

And now we deal with the entry and exit of the lift:

Creative/Difficulty Entry (Groups of examples):
a) unexpected entry without any evident preparation;
b) entry from a Difficult Position for the lifting partner: the Difficult Position must be reached before the lifted partner leaves the ice;
c) entry from a difficult transition by the lifting partner: series of at least two difficult Turns (e.g. Bracket, Choctaw, Counter, Outside Mohawk,
but not progressives) before the Dance Lift;
d) significant transitional movement performed by the lifted partner to reach and establish the desired pose (Note: this is not the same as a Change of Pose, because the movement is transitional and not established).

Notes:
A chosen Group of examples of Creative/Difficult Entry a), c) or d) shall be considered for Level only in the Dance Lift where it is first performed;

A chosen example of Creative/Difficult Entry from Group b) shall be considered for Level only in the Dance Lift where it is first performed;

if the three different examples of Spread Eagle (c), d) and e) of paragraph Difficult Position for lifting partner) are performed as Creative/Difficult Entry, only the two first performed different examples shall be considered for Level;

if an Ina Bauer (example f) of paragraph Difficult Position for lifting partner skated on same edges) and an example of Spread Eagle (c),d) or e) of paragraph Difficult Position for lifting partner) are performed as Creative/Difficult Entry on the same edges, only the first performed of the two Creative/Difficult Entry shall be considered for Level.

And, finally, there are adjustments, i.e. conditions that can cause a level to be lost:

Adjustments:

If the lifting partner stops and restarts rotating, and the partner is in a difficult pose when the rotation stops, the level shall be dropped by one.

If there is a loss of control resulting in a touchdown by hand or foot, followed by the lift recommencing, level will be reduced by 1.

And yes, we saw these adjustments made in practice this year.

Now we'll move on to look at some rotational lifts that were done as planned. After we look at a few, we should be able to figure out why Riazanova & Tkachenko's lifts that were planned to be level four ended up being level 1.

[dorispulaski]

All the lifts done at the senior level are designed to be Level 4 lifts. They just aren't always performed that way by the skaters.

Let's start out looking at Option 1b for a Level 4 lift. This is the easiest one to determine a correct level.

There the lifted partner must be in a difficult pose (or change pose), the lifting partner must rotate 6 full times, and the lifted partner must be in the difficult pose for 5 rotations.

Here's a common lift in the 1b family by Ilinykh & Katsalapov. She is in a hair cutter position and he turns at least 6 rotations.
Level 4.

I&K Worlds FD RoLi4 (3rd element)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9DeK...ailpage#t=174s

In this version, the lifted partner puts her leg on her partner's shoulder, grasps her leg or her partner's neck and gets into a split position while the partner is rotating:

Capellini and Lanotte do one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIpQ1...ailpage#t=238s

A full split is considered a difficult position.
He rotates 6 times. There is no pause in the rotation. It is all done within the 6 seconds.

All is good. Level 4.

Another lift in the same family, by Davis and White:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HgYA...ailpage#t=145s

In this case, Meryl's position is more difficult than Anna's, because she is not holding on to Charlie while in the split. And he is rotating faster than Luca. Again, Level 4. Any differences between the two teams will be accounted for in GOE, not in the level.


Let's move on to Option 1A.

Option 1A requires 5 rotations by the lifting partner, 4 by the lifted partner, a difficult position and a creative or difficult entry.

Virtue and Moir do this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwbgR...ailpage#t=220s

Scott rotates 5 times. Tessa is in a haircutter/donut position around his neck, and their entry into the skill was difficult and complex.

Also Level 4.

And here is Option 1a with a change of pose, rather than a difficult position, from Davis & White:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HgYA...ailpage#t=253s

Charlie rotates 6 times (one more than needed), Meryl is in a pose on his back holding one foot, and then drops down into a different pose. The original flip into the position on Charlie's back could be classified as difficult as well. Again level 4.

And the first of Riazanova's & Tkachenko's rotational lifts is in this family:
A difficult entry, and a change of pose. Ilia rotates 6 times at Worlds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tIFdOaE#t=191s

And at Worlds gets level 4.

Now let's move on to the one armed option, demonstrated by Ralph & Hill:

The lifting partner must be in a one-armed lift for four rotations, and additionally, he must demonstrate one other feature. In this case, he changes the level of his skating leg/knee significantly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...lhwo7g0#t=265s

Another example of option two is by Ilinykh and Katsalapov. In this case, the "one rotation on one foot" option was chosen with the one armed lift. He just gets the four rotations he needs for the level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9DeK...ailpage#t=112s

One of Riazanova's & Tkachenko's two rotational lifts is in this family. They use the same variety of Option 2 lift as Ralph & Hill, 4 rotations, one arm lift, and variation in height of the man's skating leg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tIFdOaE#t=245s

At Worlds this was level 4.

Next we'll look at some of the times these same skaters tried their rotational lifts and got lower levels.

[dorispulaski]

So let's see if we can get the same answer as the tech panel in each case:

I'm starting with Ralph & Hill.

Here's their level 4 rotational lift from Worlds, done correctly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u59l...ailpage#t=265s

If, after viewing it once, you want to watch it again, just hit the Refresh button in your browser.

As we said before, Asher does 4 rotations holding Kharis in a one armed lift, with a significant change of level/knee bend in his skating leg.

Here's what happened at Skate America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd7cr...ailpage#t=272s

After he completed 3 rotations, Asher has to grab Kharis with his other hand to maintain balance.

How does this work out?

To get level 4, R&H have to have met the requirements for Level 3, Option 2, which requires 4 rotations in the one armed hold. So they cannot get either a level 3 or a level 4. How about Level 2?

For that, Asher has to have held the one arm hold long enough that Kharis completes 2 rotations. Look at the lift again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd7cr...ailpage#t=272s

It looks like Kharis completed the 2nd rotation, so yes, it's RoLi2.



This example points out the riskiness of the one armed lift option.

The next example will be R&T's one armed lift.

(BTW, if any of you are interested, please say?)

[gkelly]

I'm interested -- thanks for doing this, Doris!

[l'etoile]

Wow, what an awesome thread! I've begun to study all these various moves/techniques(levels, etc) of icedances starting last fall, and this page is definitely my go-to page for it!

[dorispulaski]

I lied; I'm going to start with R&T's first rotational lift that was downgraded at CoR. I'll get to the one-armed lift later.


R&T's other rotational lift that was done, done correctly at Worlds here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tIFdOaE#t=191s

Ilia rotates 6 times.

and done incorrectly at CoR here:

R&T lift one CoR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuctl...ailpage#t=190s

What they are aiming for is Level 4, Option 1a:

Creative or difficult entry, plus the requirements for Level 3, Option 1.
The twist that Ekaterina does going into this lift qualifies as a difficult entry.
However:
the option also that the lifting partner completes at least 5 rotations.

If you check out between when Ekaterina leaves the ice until her foot touches the ice again, Ilia only has about four rotations. He is a little slow to start rotating, and Ekaterina comes down a little early.

Clearly, they are not getting Level 4, and because the part of the level four requirements they did not meet were to meet Level 3, option 1 requirements, they are not getting level 3 either.

So moving down to Option 2, it requires at least 4 rotations with the lady changing pose. It seemed to me at first, that they should have that:

First question is to examine whether Ekaterina changes pose, according to the rules:

Change of Pose for lifted partner:
A Change of Pose shall be considered for Level if it fulfills the following characteristics:
lifting partner changes hold and lifted partner changes hold and body pose so that it is a significant change (i.e. a photographer would produce two different photos). A mere change of position of arm(s) and/or legs, changing to the reverse side (mirror) or changing the height of the body is not enough to constitute a Change of Pose;

the change of body pose and changes of hold occur simultaneously;
each pose, preceding and following the change is clearly defined and the first pose is attained and clearly shown prior to the change to the second pose;

in Rotational Lifts, the movement through the Change of Pose occurs during rotations of both lifting and lifted partners.

Apparently, there is a requirement that constant motion is not a change of pose. And it looks like the first pose (which is before Ekaterina is on Ilia's shoulders, may be before he starts rotating properly. And it is not really a pose (it is never distinct). This would be a marginal call, I think, but perhaps justified.

In which case, they don't get level 2 either. The requirements for level one are 4 rotations by the lifting partner, so they at least get level one.

Let's look at the good version of this lift at Worlds again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tIFdOaE#t=191s

Katia's first pose is more distinct, and Ilia rotates 6 times. Level 4.




On to R&T's second lift, which is is in the same family as R&H's lift, as done correctly at Worlds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tIFdOaE#t=245s

And done incorrectly at CoR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuctl...ailpage#t=242s

Ekaterina only has 2 and a half rotations in the one armed lift. And I don't think Ilia got 3 full rotations either.

What they are going for is level 4 option 2, which requires a difference of height on the skating knee (which Ilia does), and the requirements of level 3, Option 2, which is that Ilia make four rotations.

Again, they will get neither level 3 or 4. How about level 2?

Option 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/Arm Lift through at least 2 rotations

This would seem to work. Let's look at it again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuctl...ailpage#t=242s

Does the one-armed part of the lift last at least 2 rotations? It does, but at a closer look, it seems Ekaterina's foot may have clipped the ice briefly, while Ilia is doing the change of height knee bend.

According to the adjustments section of the rules:

If there is a loss of control resulting in a touchdown by hand or foot, followed by the lift recommencing, level will be reduced by 1.

So level two minus one is level one.

Let's look at the correct lift again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...tIFdOaE#t=245s

In this case, the one armed part of the lift does last 3 rotations, but man that is a generous call on 4 rotations for Ilia, IMO.

Next up, the downgrade of ones of I&K's rotational lifts at TEB.

[conga]

Great thread, Doris! Thanks.

[colleen o'neill]

doris this is really fascinating..

[WeakAnkles]

I agree, I am absolutely in awe at how you have broken this down so it is clear and understandable. I am so looking forward to reading more. Thank you thank you thank you!

[demarinis5]

This is great and very informative reading Doris, thank you!

[mare]

Thank you, Doris, for all of your had work. This is the kind of discussion that keeps me coming back to Golden Skate. I'm hoping that an increased understanding of the rules will temper my outsized emotional reaction
when I think someone has been treated unfairly.

[slipslidin]

Thanks Doris, you'll make sophisticates of us. This ought to cut down on some wuzrobbed.

[dorispulaski]

In the last post we looked at downgraded lifts where the problems were relatively easy to spot. In the following lifts, it is trickier.

All were judged level 3 by the tech panel.

As you know by now, for level 3:

Level 3 has two options
Option 1
Lifted partner holds a difficult pose through at least 4 rotations, or performs a change of pose, and Lifting partner moves through at least 5 rotations

or

Option 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/Arm Lift through at least 4 rotations

In addition:
From P. 10, Additional Principles of Calling

Applicable to Rotational Lifts
1. A Rotational Lift shall be identified if the lifting partner moves through more than one rotation. Up to one rotation at the beginning or end of any dance Lift which is not a Rotational Lift or a Reverse Rotational Lift shall be considered part of the entry or exit
2. In a Rotational Lift, if the lifting partner stops travelling, the rotations and difficult pose or change of pose from that point on shall not be considered for the level.

and

If the lifting partner stops and restarts rotating, and the partner is in a difficult pose when the rotation stops, the level shall be dropped by one.

If there is a loss of control resulting in a touchdown by hand or foot, followed by the lift recommencing, level will be reduced by 1.

So our strategy should be to first count the turns by the lifting partner, and then the number of turns once the lifted partner gets into a difficult position, but be sensitive to any stopping and restarting or spinning in place.

We'll start with Ilinykh & Katsalapov:

Again, this was called level 4 at Worlds

Worlds FD RoLi4 (3rd element)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9DeK...ailpage#t=174s

but only level 3 at TEB:

Elena is in a hair cutter (diificult pose); she should sustain it for 4 rotations, and Nikita should rotate five times without stopping and restarting or spinning in place. In this case, I think he spun in place for the last rotation, and Elena was also a little slow into the hair cutter.

TEB FD (4th element, after twizz)RoLi3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...RPlKfIo#t=158s


Let's move on to Virtue and Moir:

At Worlds, and at every other ISU competition, their rotational lift was judged level 4. If you remember, it should have 5 turns by Scott, 4 turns by Tessa in a haircutter, and it has a difficult entry:
Here it is at Worlds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwbgR...ailpage#t=220s

However, at both the short dance and free dance at Canadian Nationals, it was judged level 3. Here it is at Nationals:
RoLi3 Canadian Nationals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW6Mo...ailpage#t=232s

Is Tessa a little slow into the haircutter, so there are not 4 full turns after she actually touches the skate to her head? I think that was the problem.


Now let's look at D&W at Cup of Russia. At every other competition, this lift was level 4. Here it is at World Team Trophy:

WTT RoLi4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HgYA...ailpage#t=253s

And here it is again at Cup of Russia:


COR Roli3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...ailpage#t=280s

If you recall, they are doing the "change of pose" option with 6 rotations. Since they got level 3, the change of pose was verified, so all attention should be on Charlie. Perhaps he does not get all the way around for the sixth rotation?

With these three cases, I am less sure of my call, and I hope you will take a look and decide for yourselves what went wrong, and give your opinion.

Next, I'd like to move on to Grade of Execution for Rotational Lifts, and we'll see what the Judges (as distinct from the tech panel) thought were excellent, good, average, and definitely not so good lifts. For this exercise, we'll be going to Worlds, and all examples will be from that competition, so that we are dealing with one set of judges.