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Thread: ISU Scale of Values, Levels of Difficulty and Guidelines for GOEs for 2012-13

  1. #31
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Background on vocals in singles and pair skating music:

    There was no rule against vocals with lyrics prior to 1990! It was just tradition. In 1990, several senior skaters started using vocal music. And what did these dastardly rebels use? Opera. Nessun Dorma was one of them. So the ISU, after picking up their monocles, quickly passed a rule to ban vocals. Thus forcing us to listen to Vanessa Mae's violin version of Nessun Dorma forever more.

    In 1997, jive was the OD rhythm in ice dancing. Because it was so hard to find jive music without vocals, the ISU relented and allowed vocals in the OD. And after seeing that the discipline wasn't completely destroyed by vocal music, the ISU unclenched even more and started allowing vocals in all segments of ice dancing.

    And now, 14 years later, they deign to consider allowing vocals in the rest of figure skating. I'd say it's about time... if it was a decade ago.

  2. #32
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Background on vocals in singles and pair skating music:

    There was no rule against vocals with lyrics prior to 1990! It was just tradition. In 1990, several senior skaters started using vocal music. And what did these dastardly rebels use? Opera. Nessun Dorma was one of them. So the ISU, after picking up their monocles, quickly passed a rule to ban vocals. Thus forcing us to listen to Vanessa Mae's violin version of Nessun Dorma forever more.

    In 1997, jive was the OD rhythm in ice dancing. Because it was so hard to find jive music without vocals, the ISU relented and allowed vocals in the OD. And after seeing that the discipline wasn't completely destroyed by vocal music, the ISU unclenched even more and started allowing vocals in all segments of ice dancing.

    And now, 14 years later, they deign to consider allowing vocals in the rest of figure skating. I'd say it's about time... if it was a decade ago.
    what you propose is scary business! What if they start using horrible pop music? I don't want to see a program to Justin Bieber.

  3. #33
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    what you propose is scary business! What if they start using horrible pop music? I don't want to see a program to Justin Bieber.
    Behold, your nightmare has come true!

    But really, they already could skate to Justin Bieber in ice dancing. It's very unlikely to happen in senior competition, though, as that's music that wouldn't connect to judges.

  4. #34
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Behold, your nightmare has come true!

    But really, they already could skate to Justin Bieber in ice dancing. It's very unlikely to happen in senior competition, though, as that's music that wouldn't connect to judges.
    I have a feeling some hapless junior team will use it for their OD this year.

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    They also removed the shape/pattern from the step sequence definition: no such thing as serpentine/circular/straight-line.

  6. #36
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    OK, that's awful.

    Here is the argument in favor of classical music. If a young person wants to hear Justin Bieber he can tune in his smart iphone thingy to the Justin-Bieber-all-the-time-download-stream (there's an app for that) -- or go to a Justin Bieber concert. Why confuse the issue with Huzura Hanyu schlumphing along on ice skates?

    On the other hand, how often do we actually get up and take our kids to a performance of Swan Lake? If we can somehow get children to watch an ice skating competition, that may be their only chance ever to hear Carmen. Then when they hear it again next week, it's like, hey, I know that song.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-04-2012 at 07:03 PM.

  7. #37
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    I wouldn't argue in favor of classical music. I love a good program to melodic jazz, rock instrumentals, folk instruments, etc., as well as classical. Variety is a good thing.

    I have reservations about lyrics for several reasons.

    *They distract from focusing on the skating as part of the viewer's brain is engaged in listening to the words. (This is probably even more true if the listener doesn't already know the song -- or if it's in a language they understand partially but not automatically.)
    *In international competition, it divides the audience between those who understand the language being sung and those who don't.
    *Skaters may be tempted to interpret the content of the words with upper body gestures rather than to interpret the rhythms and nuances of the music through full-body movement.
    *It's harder to cut vocal music to fit the needs of the program for time limits, pacing, and build, because cuts from one verse to another, and especially from the beginning of one verse to the end of another with the same melody (which could work well in an instrumental version, will destroy the sense of the story and will often destroy rhyme schemes.
    *For this reason, there may be more temptation just to choose a song that's the right length and use it unedited, which respects the composer and lyricist better but may not serve the skater as well if the song lacks variety from beginning to end. I.e., the skating serving the music rather than the music serving the skating.
    *Musically unsophisticated skaters and coaches may see this as encouragement just to choose a favorite song and skate to it without considering how it fits the structure of a competitive program.

    I'm sure we'd see some great programs from thoughtful skaters and choreographers who judiciously choose vocal selections that work well for competitive freestyle skating and cut and choreograph appropriately.

    I just hope that there would be more of those and few decisions to throw the right number of jumps, spins, etc., into last summer's hit pop song.

  8. #38
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I am going to pretend I said that. That's what I would have said if I had your skating acumen and writing skills.

  9. #39
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    The reason for using vocals is also the main cause for concerns, which is that more people understand, interpret, and relate to words than music (especially the more sophisticated forms). At times skaters may choose between skating to the music or the words of a song. Often interpreting and acting the lyrics will be easier and more tempting than interpreting and skating to the music. It can also be more easily appealing emotionally and entertaining to the audience. I am all for appealing to and entertaining the audience, but not as a way to undercut real skating skills and technical difficulties. It can also be distracting for a spectator with division of attention unless there is a perfect congruence of music, lyrics, and performance via skating. And what about the most stripped down of "music", to just beats? There is definitely more "lyrics" than musical notes in rap.

    As well, songs will likely be chosen in the most universally understood languages to current skating fans, having a somewhat limiting effect amidst a wide varied global song selection. OTOH, watching a program skated to incomprehensible vocals will not have the distracting effect so permitting lyrics will widen the choice of music without the common concerns. The vocals will be just another instrument used in the music.

    I suspect, as with every other criteria of judgement and enjoyment, the superior and the lower level skaters will differentiate themselves in the performance and execution of their programs, with or without lyrics.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    what you propose is scary business! What if they start using horrible pop music? I don't want to see a program to Justin Bieber.
    Personally I have always wondered why they don't have a mandatory -3 deduction rule for horrible music taste! Or horrible program. This will surely dramatically improved everyone's program next year!

    On the other hand I welcome the change to include the optional VOCALs in the music.
    Like anything to do art with creativity, it is just an extra set of tools available with your blank canvas to equip you the freedom to pick and choose... it should not distract unless the choreography and the skater failed to sell their artistic interpretation.

    There are millions of people appreciate use of lyrics in all fields of music not in their own language and even if they don't know what they mean they are still perfectly capable of moved by it and appreciate it. That is the power of great music expression and interpretation. It breaks down these barriers and make art alive, breathing, universal and appealing. You don't need to speak the language to able to enjoy Edith Piaf, Billy Holiday, Puccini operas, Aboriginal folk songs when the skaters is on ice to make them work. Nor should you get distracted otherwise they are not doing their job well.

    I actually think the audience would enjoy being a bit more challenged rather than being distracted by this change. The crowd deserve a little more credit than just watching skating for entertainment. People goto Theatre, goto Shakespeare plays not because they completely understand it, but because they learn something, and it broaden their horizon. If they find it interesting, they may do research more about it after to appreciate the performance and the choreography even more. It can broaden new audiences and is a good relaxed rule for the sport.
    Last edited by os168; 05-05-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  11. #41
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    Allowing lyrics would be fantastic and should have been done a long time ago. Look, if people are worried about Justin Bieber/Rebecca Black crap... don't. It just won't happen. And if it does, the judges will nail them for it. Lyrics have been allowed in ice dance for years now, and the top couples and choreographers know good lyrical music when they hear it.

    I'm tired of only hearing classical and jazz. There are so many different musical styles that aren't translated in competition.

  12. #42
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

    Get ready for this after 2014 if lyrics are allowed.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

    Get ready for this after 2014 if lyrics are allowed.
    Well, if you want popular appeal......

    Almost 8 million views since 2010!

  14. #44
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Let's expect to see who could seduce the audience more effectively. Though it will have little affect on me as I might say good-bye to my hobby on figure skating after Sochi too.
    So, it seems you might be saying if Chan wins expected OGM, you will leave? it is amazing how many Koreans flooded the boards and youtube and have no interest in it as yuna is gone. I am guessing at what you say, but most posts seem to be about Patrick. There are many great skaters to come. It is sad if we now have a Chan in Chan out thing instead ot fans of the sport.

    I think lyrics is a bad idea, but I would love to see a technical program with no music as music is very seductive and not the work of the skater, so should not be judged. As for how that would work, my idea, it would take an experienced skater/judge to see how to do it. The artistry would still be there. The best skaters will stick out like a sore thumb without Mahler to sweep us away. There could still be choreography. Maybe sport would be more of a draw.

  15. #45
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBxpjtcBAG8

    Get ready for this after 2014 if lyrics are allowed.
    Hey, I hate the music and am tired of that family in general but I think this little skater was wonderful. It is good to see black kids skating. We need another Debi Thomas. She was quite the hard worker and inspired a lot of people.

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