Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Czisny: FB Post and Hip surgery

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
drivingmissdaisy said:
There was talk among people on this board about whether Alissa should be taken off the team, so even though many of us didn't know there was an injury we did see the poor performances coming....I think the USFSA needs to give itself more options in the future to change up the World team given what has happened the past two years because it cannot rely solely on the athlete's decision whether or not to compete. Alissa's performance at Nationals was mediocre enough that if I were the USFSA I'd probably want one more data point (such as 4CC) before placing her on the team.

To my way of thinking there is a fundamental question that needs to be answered first.

Is a trip to Worlds something the the athlete earns or is it something that the USFSA bestows?

I would have no problem with having more than just U.S. Nationals determine the National team (although this is a paradigm that worked well for a long time). But I would argue with ardor that whatever system is devised the USFSA must announce clearly and unequivocally before the beginning of the season: "If you do this, this, and this, then you will go to Worlds."

The alternative is, "if you do this, this, and this, then we will convene a committee and talk it over."

To me, this is contrary to the whole idea of sport. If there is something to be won, win it on the field of play. (JMO. :) )
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'm not suggesting a moving target like Amelie faced this year, but I'd be ok with some named to the team after nationals and some after a "skate-off" at 4CCs. Russia and some other countries do this with Europeans and it seems like a practical solution. Obviously there would be occasions in which an entire team could be named at Nationals (Kwan, Hughes and Cohen in 02 comes to mind) but given that things can go south for a skater between nationals and worlds it looks like it would be an improvement to consider results after nationals in many cases.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
I love Alissa's skating. I want to see her skates! :yes:

Here is my best wishes to Alissa for a full recovery!!! :)
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I got on team Flatt's case last year and this year I'm on team Czisny's case.

I am not on anybody's case. Not for me to judge. Even if I were to judge, I don't have the facts nor the rules, both being fuzzy and subject to interpretation.

But now the injury is a fact confirmed last week so that's what I can express my feelings on.

However I think I can agree that Hersh's double standard seems rather blatant.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
However I think I can agree that Hersh's double standard seems rather blatant.

Do not bother yourself with these people, SkateFiguring.
We all know that there are tons of people of the kind everywhere these days, who would claim themselves 'the most intelligent, intellectual and level-headed journalists', which I would rather translate, (my English vocabularies are so limited you know...;)), simply as 'idiots'. :biggrin:
We even have a journalist with triple standard who freelances to The ***** ***** in Japan. :p
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
To Krenseby:

Since it seems your PM Inbox is full and does not accept new messages, let me reply you here, instead.

-----------------------------------------
Hello, krenseby!

Thank you so much for your message and correcting my mistake in English.
It is very thoughtful of you to do so by PMing me. :)

I really appreciate you for the correction, remembering how many times I haved used the word in plural form so far...:eek::

Alissa is a beautiful skater, who has given me a sheer joy of figure skating which I love so much as a rare combination of sport and art.

While a lot of skating fans in Japan, including me of course!, look forward to seeing Alissa at NHK Trophy in the upcoming season, I sincerely hope she does not rush herself and takes enough time for a full recovery. :yes:

Thanks again and brgds,
deedee
----------------------------------------
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
For one thing, all four of the champions that you mentioned retired at 19. Maybe there should be an age limit -- 20 and out.

Plus, back then they pretty much did only Nationals and Worlds, possibly with an occasional North American Championship or Nebelhorn Trophy thrown in. Skaters now compete and train for competition nine months of the year.

And also they did not have to train the arsenal of triple jumps that skaters do now.

Add this all up and I think the top skaters of today, in common with professional athletes in other sports, are signing up for a life time of physical problems. The difference between figure skating and football is that top footballers are compensated with contracts in the tens of millions of dollars.

All points are how it is and the last we now see too true-this sport is harder than succeeding at football without the glory, fame and lastly the money. MK was making 900,000 at these big events at times. Why should Patrick risk all? Yuna cashed in in every way but she is in Asia where the sport is more valued, respected and supported. It isn't worth it to do what they have to do. Only love for skating and achievement of big titles are motivators. Money is gone, as Patrick tells us even at the top for most skaters.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
With Alissa it is different. The whole point is there's no way of knowing for sure. Yes she completely flopped, but the break down in communication if any must have started earlier with the 4CC, so if there were some communication problem it would be on both sides. At the same time as supported by medical facts, she did not experience pain till much later, so what should one do in her situation preparing the biggest competition of the season? Give up her spot based on an unsubstantiated hunch? Focus on preparation and get their head game skill game right or stress out over 'nothing' and get an MRI for no reason? MRI cost a lot of money, I am not sure the rate in US but I expect something like $400 upwards just for the scan + medical consultation likely around $200 an hour, so it is hardly realistic in her situation. Who's going to pay? What is the point? One does not get an MRI based on hunch unless is recommended by medical doctor based on symptoms. "Doctor, I can't land my jumps can I get an MRI?" is hardly a likely scenario.

Regardless of whether she has pain, should she have known something was physically wrong? Before when her results were shaky she was at least good in practice; recently she couldn't land her jumps consistently in practice either. That fact, plus her inability to land even a 2A at Worlds, should have given her some indication that something was wrong. USFSA continues to commit to their early selections and choose not to adjust the rules to give themselves leeway to change the team, so I think they deserve much of the blame. As others have said, no one else was going to finish in the top 7 anyway so it doesn't really impact World spots for next year. Next year it could matter because if Zhang and Agnes improve, Nagasu comes back strong, and Ashley and Gracie skate as well as expected, some potential top 10 skaters could be left off the team. Learn from your mistakes USFSA.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
At the same time as supported by medical facts, she did not experience pain till much later, so what should one do in her situation preparing the biggest competition of the season? Give up her spot based on an unsubstantiated hunch? Focus on preparation and get their head game skill game right or stress out over 'nothing' and get an MRI for no reason? MRI cost a lot of money, I am not sure the rate in US but I expect something like $400 upwards just for the scan + medical consultation likely around $200 an hour, so it is hardly realistic in her situation. Who's going to pay? What is the point? One does not get an MRI based on hunch unless is recommended by medical doctor based on symptoms. "Doctor, I can't land my jumps can I get an MRI?" is hardly a likely scenario.

A weird trend I've observed for the US skaters is they are held up to impossible high standards and expectations more than any other nationality. I know everyone love a winner, but not everyone can win. All US leading ladies who did not bring back a medal or failed expectations always get some sort of bash instead of consolation, far more than the men, and if there's some weakness or reason for doubt much later, they ends up being targeted for criticism. While everyone love a winner, but seriously... give the skaters a break, they are just human. Don't only love them when they perform, but also love them and stand by them when they didn't perform and there are reasons for it which they are trying to fix it. People have been far too spoilt with Michelle Kwan who sets an impossible high standards for anyone else to follow since. (Or generally sport boards just attract a lot of bitchy comments for the heck of it.)

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Edit/ Looks like I was wrong about price of MRI, I based UK rate, but I guess we get some NHS subsidy. MRI apparently cost anything between $550 - $3000. Gosh...

http://answers.ask.com/Health/Medicine/how_much_does_an_mri_cost

This is why I''m so reluctant to pass judgment on either Alissa or Rachael. I don't know what they felt or when they felt it, or what advice they had (or didn't have). They're both hardworking skaters who have delivered for America before this, and they deserve (in my mind at least) the benefit of the doubt. In addition, they weren't exactly stealing spots from some prodigy who would have brought us our first podium since 2006. We don't have one of those right now.

I'm actually relieved about Alissa; when I see an unexplainable loss of strength like that, part of my brain starts imagining all sorts of neuromuscular disorders. A torn cartilage? That they can fix.

os168, do you think we Americans expect too much from our ladies? I guess that could be true. We were spoiled for so many years with Michelle and her rivals. In fact, there are even Americans who think of Michelle as some sort of failure, because she didn't win an OGM. (I guess they'd also think Kurt was a failure, despite the fact that he is--well, Kurt. There's no pleasing some people. I have an otherwise sensible friend who doesn't like Michelle because she cried once. Emotion makes this woman uncomfortable.) In any case, I still love Alissa and enjoy Rachael, and I'm proud that they represent my country.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
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Joined
Mar 23, 2010
os168, do you think we Americans expect too much from our ladies? I guess that could be true. We were spoiled for so many years with Michelle and her rivals. In fact, there are even Americans who think of Michelle as some sort of failure, because she didn't win an OGM. (I guess they'd also think Kurt was a failure, despite the fact that he is--well, Kurt. There's no pleasing some people. I have an otherwise sensible friend who doesn't like Michelle because she cried once. Emotion makes this woman uncomfortable.) In any case, I still love Alissa and enjoy Rachael, and I'm proud that they represent my country.

Olympia, I wouldn't like to generalize (but probably do more than I should), but one can only react to the comments they read these last few years, and my impression as an outsider is Alissa, Rachel, Mirai (the contenders) seems to have attracted so many negative criticisms (although sometimes positives can balance out the negative ONLY if they deliver) far more than any other nationality of ladies skaters. I am wondering if the Japanese ladies get as much flack as they do at Japanese boards. I know Chinese boards are fairly supportive of their own skaters even if they ends up 5th-10th etc, and of course they go nuts if someone get medalled. How about Russian boards, I would be surprised if they decide to pick on Adelina for her below expectation results this year consider so much hype and especially compares to Liza or may be Julia. I don't know the answer, but I am curious. Do the Canadians really think Kurt as a failure for miss out the OGM? I'd be very surprised.

People used to dismiss Caroline Zhang so quickly as well, until she defied the expectations this year. What if she doesn't do well again next season, what will people say? I dread to think. Or would the tide turn on Ashley next year if Russian Babies decide to smashed everyone out their way by simply being better? Maybe people are most tough with the people they love the most? Michelle get considered as a failure because of the Olympics and attract criticisms because she got emotional? Wow! Sorry... but that is just way harsh! Is this a cultural trait? Maybe the mentality of a super powered nation? Americans don't cry, unless you are some Hollywood Actresses getting an OSCAR in which case let the tear duct flow freely!

There were so much talk about Tiger Mums on these figure skating boards, I swear there are far more US Tiger fans than Chinese Tiger Mums!
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
drivingmiss dailsy said:
USFSA continues to commit to their early selections and choose not to adjust the rules to give themselves leeway to change the team, so I think they deserve much of the blame.

This is the point of view that I am at odds with. The idea that it's all about the federation's power, the federations's prerogatives, the federations decisions, the federation this and the federation that. To me, this reduces the skaters to mere pawns pushed around the board at the whim of the people who really matter.

Can't the skaters at least be bishops and knights?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Plus :) ... I have to ask this. Seriously, what would we think of a skater who said, I'm feeling some pain, my practices haven't been going well, I think I better withdraw from the world championship?

Skaters go to the world championship competition for one reason -- to win the championship. Folks like us speculate about, maybe this skater can luck out with 8th and the other guy sneak in at numbers 5 - yay! Three spots!!!!!

I don't believe that the skater's think like that. You are not competing at the world championship, you are oompeting for the world championship. You can't let a little thing like a broken leg hold you back! ;)
 
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mskater93

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Joined
Oct 22, 2005
This is the point of view that I am at odds with. The idea that it's all about the federation's power, the federations's prerogatives, the federations decisions, the federation this and the federation that. To me, this reduces the skaters to mere pawns pushed around the board at the whim of the people who really matter.

To support MM's point, US Nationals is the only time ALL contenders (Seniors) are at the same competition. Win your spot on the ice!

How do you determine your team from other criteria? If you send 2-4 to 4CC the next week after Nationals and they all skate well or they all bomb and finish within a point or two of each other (margin of error from the trimming), how do you select your other team member? What if your National silver medalist claims they can't go to 4CC because they feel some pain but should be in shape for Worlds 3-4 weeks later? Do you scratch him/her off the list as being able to be sent to Worlds? HOW DO YOU MAKE THAT CHOICE WITHOUT APPEARING TO PLAY FAVORITES?
 

gkelly

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Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Skaters go to the world championship competition for one reason -- to win the championship. Folks like us speculate about, maybe this skater can luck out with 8th and the other guy sneak in at numbers 5 - yay! Three spots!!!!!

I don't believe that the skater's think like that. You are not competing at the world championship, you are oompeting for the world championship. You can't let a little thing like a broken leg hold you back! ;)


Well, I think that skaters need to think positive about their possible placements. If they don't believe in themselves, who will?

Many of the top skaters are there specifically to win the title and will be disappointed with any lesser result including a close silver. Others go in believing that if they skate their best they have as much chance of winning as anyone else, even if past results and objective outside evaluations would suggest otherwise.

But because of the size of the World Championships and the way that federations qualify entrants, there are plenty of skaters competing there for whom winning gold is . . . maybe their dream, but not their realistic goal for the week.

Obviously, those who are in the hunt for gold get a lot more attention from the media and fans than those whose eyes are set on just making it to the final freeskate.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
...you seriously think team Czisny didn't at least know SOMETHING wasn't right? Even if they weren't aware of a specific injury, per se...

Like with Flatt, they knew she was a shell of her former self performance-wise, yet she still went. Not like Zawadzki would have been that much of an upgrade over an injured Czisny (WADR), but still, it's the thought that matters. Not to mention continuing to compete and taking multiple falls like that could put her at further risk.

By "double standard" I'm referring to those posters who were quick to pounce on Flatt for skating injured at Worlds, but somehow are willing to give Czisny a pass, rationalizing her statements, etc. (you know who you are) All this shows is that said posters either a) hate Flatt, b) love Czisny or c) both. Other posters like MM have been consistent in supporting both Flatt and Czisny, so they're not the ones I'm referring to. I got on team Flatt's case last year and this year I'm on team Czisny's case. I seem to have angered a lot more people this year than last year even though I'm essentially saying the same thing :laugh:

As for Phil Hersh, it's a shame. He's probably the best example of this double standard! He really went after USFS post Flatt-gate/tibiagate and had them get to the bottom of what happened. But this year, he just seems to accept what happened and is even going the other way, making excuses for Czisny and rationalizing her thoughts. His bias here is so obvious (and painful, cringeworthy, etc.). And I usually have defended him in the past!

ETA: I, too, wish Czisny a full recovery- don't confuse this post or my position with a lack of sympathy for her injury- but at the same time, it is what it is, and questions must be asked.

I just want to say I agree with you, R.D., on all points.

Last year, I strongly criticized Flatt for skating at Worlds despite her injury. I feel exactly the same way about Czisny now. I said after Challenge Cup she should withdraw from the team, and I stand by that. Even if she wasn't actually in pain at that point, she HAD to know something was seriously wrong. I know Zawadzki wouldn't have medaled in her place, but I'm also certain she would have placed higher than 22nd.

My opinion on this is very strong and hasn't been popular, even with my own family. They feel I'm overly critical of Alissa. My response is that this is a sport, not a support group. Athletes have responsibilities to themselves, their team, their country. If they choose to compete for the flag, they should represent it to the best of their ability IMO. Not show up when they're injured, ill-prepared, or mentally unready to compete.

I too find Hersh's stance on Czisny ridiculous and cringeworthy. First he tried to blame the federation for her disaster at Challenge Cup, now he unquestioningly accepts every one of her disingenuous comments on the situation, not challenging anything, while he was harshly and consistently critical of Flatt. Totally biased and embarrassing for him as a journalist.

In the Hersh column, Alissa said again that she was landing jumps in practice and just couldn't do it in competition. She vaguely attributed this to the emerging injury. But that doesn't make sense. The injury whould have affected her jumps equally in practice and competition. Either she's lying and she wasn't landing jumps in practice (which would prove she wasn't ready for Worlds) or she's telling the truth, which would then indicate her Worlds disaster resulted from her usual problems with nerves (not the injury). My money is on the former.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Decisions and judgements by hindsight are always easy.

I feel for American skaters because the deep fields engender intense domestic competitiveness and fans' impatience and sometimes harsh judgements and demands. Second chances are rationed, unlike in nations of shallow pools where some skaters have time to develop and mature.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
To support MM's point, US Nationals is the only time ALL contenders (Seniors) are at the same competition. Win your spot on the ice!

How do you determine your team from other criteria? If you send 2-4 to 4CC the next week after Nationals and they all skate well or they all bomb and finish within a point or two of each other (margin of error from the trimming), how do you select your other team member? What if your National silver medalist claims they can't go to 4CC because they feel some pain but should be in shape for Worlds 3-4 weeks later? Do you scratch him/her off the list as being able to be sent to Worlds? HOW DO YOU MAKE THAT CHOICE WITHOUT APPEARING TO PLAY FAVORITES?

A lot of countries use criteria in addition to nationals to pick their teams. There's Russia, who sometimes uses events like Euros to finalize placements, and Japan, where you can qualify with a strong GPF performance. Yes, all contenders are at Nationals but if you can narrow that field to the 2 or 3 most likely contenders, it would help the USFSA to have one more data point if it chose to go that route. As for your other hypotheticals, decisions could be made on a case-by-case basis.

We fielded a weak men's team in 2011, and injury issues with our ladies the last two years. The USFSA needs more options to deal with these situations; it couldn't even get Tonya Harding off the team in 1994 because of the rules in place.

I think you and MM place too much emphasis on the "fairness" aspect, which can be at odds with the mission of USFSA. Worlds is the one event which the organization should have a little latitude because the results have future implications.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
(This refers back to OS168's post # 90; I screwed up the quoting function.)

I didn't mean to imply that any negative feelings for Michelle or Kurt were widespread. In terms of Kurt, I can't imagine anyone (especially anyone Canadian!) thinking of him as anything but spectacular, but there are naysayers for everything. As for Michelle, most Americans I know just adore her (me included; she and Kurt are my two favorite singles skaters ever), but from time to time I see commentary in the other direction about her. I don't know whether the people making those comments are American, or even if they know a lot about skating. They might just be casual onlookers who only understand winning. I think you and I agree that this is a rather silly outlook.

In some sports there is indeed a perception among Americans that winning is the best and only thing. That impatience is not my favorite American trait. I like to hope that skating fans are smarter and wiser than that. (Or maybe we know from long experience that we can't take skating victories for granted!) As SF says, other countries with a shallower pool of skaters might be more likely to give their champions time to grow and gain skill--the way Italians have stuck with Kostner through thick and thin, or Hungarians with Julia Sebastyen, or in the nineties, Finns stayed loyal to one of my favorite ice dancing couples, Rahkamo and Kokko.

The short-lived careers of American skaters might also be due to the fact that (like Canadians) our skaters finance most of their own efforts. Unless a skater has real success and can raise sponsors, it's probably not possible for him or her to stay around for long anyway, which is sad.

As for what could have been done about Alissa, I wonder to what degree the relative inexperience of Yuka and Jason as coaches made them miss any signals about the seriousness of her injury. I mean, I can't believe that Alissa was saying anything as specific as "My hip won't work right, which is why I can't jump." Plainly whatever was wrong was so nebulous that no one could attribute a cause to it. Would a more experienced coach have seen clues in Alissa's movement on the ice that would have suggested this injury? Then maybe some sort of action could have been taken. But without probable cause, so to speak, what else could have been done?
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Dec 27, 2009
Decisions and judgements by hindsight are always easy.

I feel for American skaters because the deep fields engender intense domestic competitiveness and fans' impatience and sometimes harsh judgements and demands. Second chances are rationed, unlike in nations of shallow pools where some skaters have time to develop and mature.

My hope is that most of these skaters are not highly affected by such judgments. Also as I noted in past posts, the reaction of these boards don't necessarily reflect the entire figure skating fan base/figure skating community's view of a given skater. Rachael, for one, is highly respected outside of these boards. When she got her Skate America assignment, Kristi Yamaguchi tweeted her congratulations. And then you have people like Doug Mathis who show his support for all skaters.

I think that successful skaters are able to rise above the criticism, Caroline Zhang is a great example of that this season. I'm hoping for much of the same for all skaters.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
One thing about Caroline that has struck me throughout her career: she seems to possess that elusive quality of mental toughness that Mirai and Alissa both lack. If she gets her jumps ironed out, this gal will be a formidable competitor. This very year, I hope!
 
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