Tran's naturalization process hits snag

Mrs. P · May 16, 2012

redwing said:
You make it sound like foreign coaches are doing this just out of pure goodness, or that foreign coaches will stop taking Japanese skaters unless Tran receives citizenship. The reality is noone forced them and they are being compensated for their services and in some cases very well. It is a mutual beneficial arrangement and really has no bearing on Japanese policy regarding citizenship.

How many years has Tran represented Japan ? 5 years ongoing and he still doesn't speak the language. Japan has enough problems now that average Japanese person doesn't care about Tran. Japanese cares about the nation and unity. People keep making circular arguments of what about this, or why not this, or how come that, but the bottom line is he won't get citizenship.

So that means people can't express their opinion on why he should? I don't know why you find it so terrible that people are expressing their opinions on why Tran should get citizenship. It's not like the Japanese government reads this board. (Or do they?

)

From where I sit, even if JSF/Tran fail, they will have at least had the opportunity to open some dialogue on the topic of citizenship and national pride. I don't see that as a bad thing.

sorcerer · May 16, 2012

StellaCampo said:
I had a quick look at this Nationality Act and Art. 9 but I cannot work out how you arrived at the conclusion that Art.9 does not require Tran to lose Canadian Citizenship. All that Art 9 says is that it allows Art. 5, Clause 1 to be overriden, ie the 5 year residency requirement. Art. 9 does NOT say that it overrides Art. 5, Clause 5 (condition either that the person currently has no nationality or that he shall lose his current nationality).

You didn't read well and I didn't explain well.
Paragraph 2 of Ariticle 5 allows what those sports-associated Diet members are going to propose.
There will be no asking to give up Canadian citizenship if that is the Diet's will.
The Ministry can grumble anytime but can't disobey Diet.
All they are doing is expressing their wishes to the Diet not to put Art. 9 in act,
and the only rationale they expressed is that "there's no precedent of such" LOL.

So Tran's nationality thing depends on whether those Diet members can or cannot persuade the majority of the Diet.

ETA. References if you can read Japanese.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/帰化#.E5.A4.A7.E5.B8.B0.E5.8C.96
http://www.nakamura-shiho.com/245-1/24525/

redwing · May 16, 2012

Mrs. P said:
So that means people can't express their opinion on why he should? I don't know why you find it so terrible that people are expressing their opinions on why Tran should get citizenship. It's not like the Japanese government reads this board. (Or do they? )

From where I sit, even if JSF/Tran fail, they will have at least had the opportunity to open some dialogue on the topic of citizenship and national pride. I don't see that as a bad thing.

I don't have anything against him as a person and we live in a free society so you are entitle to your opinions. I'm not mod or thought police here so I won't delete your post if I disagree with you

I will say however since I am not us citizen, I don't feel it is proper for me to address immigration policies of that country and whether it is right or wrong. Even if their president and congress says they should grant mass citizenship as they do now, I wouldn't address it because I know it is a touchy subject for many americans. I mean who am I to say some foreigner should or shouldn't become a citizen in that country. It's up to that country and elected officials to decide their own fate.

deedee1 · May 16, 2012

Though I have my personal opinions and some feelings toward a couple of posts here, this sort of topic is 'lets-wait-and-see' thing for all of us...

While doing so myself, I would rather enjoy their great performances from the recent Worlds, then share the epoch-making moment and celebrate together with Narumi and Mervin. :yes:

SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w

FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY

Agree with British Eurosport, just one word "GORGEOUS!" :love:

Thank you so much once again, Narumi & Mervin!
Almost 2 months since then, but you guys give me thrills and goosebumps, and still make me smile and cry at the same time with your wonderful performances! :thumbsup:

Jaana · May 17, 2012

deedee1 said:
SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w

FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY

Agree with British Eurosport, just one word "GORGEOUS!"

Thank you so much once again, Narumi & Mervin!
Almost 2 months since then, but you guys give me thrills and goosebumps, and still make me smile and cry at the same time with your wonderful performances! :thumbsup:

Thanks so much for the links! Yeah, it also made me smile and cry, what a fantastic couple they are...

ice coverage · May 17, 2012

Also for your viewing pleasure, cute photos of Uncle Mervin with his little niece (whose first birthday was May 13):

http://twitter.com/#!/skate_moivo/status/198632640163758080

http://twitter.com/#!/melipetit/status/201101500754296832

StellaCampo · May 17, 2012

sorcerer said:
You didn't read well and I didn't explain well.
Paragraph 2 of Ariticle 5 allows what those sports-associated Diet members are going to propose.
There will be no asking to give up Canadian citizenship if that is the Diet's will.
The Ministry can grumble anytime but can't disobey Diet.
All they are doing is expressing their wishes to the Diet not to put Art. 9 in act,
and the only rationale they expressed is that "there's no precedent of such" LOL.

So Tran's nationality thing depends on whether those Diet members can or cannot persuade the majority of the Diet.

ETA. References if you can read Japanese.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/帰化#.E5.A4.A7.E5.B8.B0.E5.8C.96
http://www.nakamura-shiho.com/245-1/24525/

Thank you for your clarification, it saves me going thro' google-translate. The fact that this Article dispenses with the requirement to waive the other nationality seems to make this treatment all the more special, does it not? Since, as I understand, it is extremely rare that the japanese government tolerates its citizen having dual citizenship.

Olympia · May 17, 2012

redwing said:
I'm surprised people keep bringing this up. You do realize Article 9 is reserved for someone of Japanese ethnicity who is not a citizen ? It's not explicitly stated as such due to political reasons but it will never be invoked for a foreigner. The Japanese have a very strong sense of national unity, if you were to ask the average Japanese what race they view themselves, they would answer Japanese, not asian.

Non Japanese may think this view strange but it's really simple. A Japanese citizen is nothing without his country, and everything that makes Japan unique, the culture, language, history and identity must be preserved otherwise it is in constant danger of being lost. This is not extremist as every Japanese citizen regardless of political party, devotes themselves to Japan to prevent such disappearance. Every Japanese citizen contributes what they can for the nation, whether they are soldiers to guard the borders, businessmen to earn money for their nation, artists to express the nation's creativity, and athletes to display the nation's physical prowess.

People remark how well Japanese people handled the earthquake/tsunami disaster and nuclear calamity without mass chaos. Maybe some understand why after what i just wrote.

This is the impression I have always gotten about Japanese identity. In some ways, we in the U.S. and Canada are in the weakest position to understand this outlook because we are both nations made by immigrants, and immigrants from very diverse areas at that. Even the original "founding generation" of the actual United States, in the 1770s, was made up of people from Britain (including Scotland and Ireland), the Netherlands, Germany, and Scandinavia, all of whom spoke different languages when they got here. That doesn't even take into account the First Nations (the preferred term in the U.S. is apparently now American Indians again), or Africans, who first arrived in 1619. The idea of a complete cultural, religious, and ethnic homogeneity is not something we are based on. (Yes, I know there are some Americans who want that. They don't speak for all of us.) So we North Americans have to reach a bit to understand the Japanese way of looking at national identity. That's their prerogative. It certainly preserves the culture, which is an admirable goal.

That being said, I don't have great expectations of Tran being awarded Japanese citizenship, but as the saying goes, never say never. Either way, I hope he and Takahashi get to skate together internationally for a long time to come.

sorcerer · May 17, 2012

StellaCampo said:
... it is extremely rare that the japanese government tolerates its citizen having dual citizenship.

Yes, it's rare but the Ministry did once admit Alberto Fujimori (former Peruvian President) his Japanese nationality and he became de facto a dual citizenship holder.
I agree that this is not a legal forum so I limit myself to saying that the Article 14 (2 years period of choosing his nationality after becoming a dual citizenship holder) can be applied for Tran as a compromise between the pro-Tran Diet members and the Ministry of Legislation .... the latter not wanting an easy example to be established as a future "precedent".
Though merely an idea of mine but IMO realistic; Tran will be given Japanese nationality as a gift but with condition that he has to choose between the 2 citizenships within 2 years.

l'etoile · May 17, 2012

deedee1 said:
Though I have my personal opinions and some feelings toward a couple of posts here, this sort of topic is 'lets-wait-and-see' thing for all of us...

While doing so myself, I would rather enjoy their great performances from the recent Worlds, then share the epoch-making moment and celebrate together with Narumi and Mervin. :yes:

SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w

FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY

Agree with British Eurosport, just one word "GORGEOUS!"

Thank you so much once again, Narumi & Mervin!
Almost 2 months since then, but you guys give me thrills and goosebumps, and still make me smile and cry at the same time with your wonderful performances! :thumbsup:

Good lord, they really were the highlight of the pairs event in Nice!

mousepotato · May 18, 2012

sorcerer said:
Though merely an idea of mine but IMO realistic; Tran will be given Japanese nationality as a gift but with condition that he has to choose between the 2 citizenships within 2 years.

If they didn't give Yuko dual citizenship Tran doesn't stand a chance.

sorcerer · May 18, 2012

mousepotato said:
If they didn't give Yuko dual citizenship Tran doesn't stand a chance.

IMO it's not that simple. Japanese government can give Japanese citizenship but can't give Russian citizenship.

You know, a petition to give Tran Japanese nationality would be very supportive for those pro-Tran Diet members.
Messages from abroad will be more powerful than domestic voices.

mousepotato · May 18, 2012

sorcerer said:
IMO it's not that simple. Japanese government can give Japanese citizenship but can't give Russian citizenship.

You know, a petition to give Tran Japanese nationality would be very supportive for those pro-Tran Diet members.
Messages from abroad will be more powerful than domestic voices.

Obviously Japan can't give Japanese citizenship. What I meant was, when Yuko was with her former partner and he couldn't get citizenship the only way Yuko could go to the Olympics (assuming Japan wouldn't give Smirnov citizenship if they didn't give it to Markuntsov) is to skate for Russia.

She didn't want to give up her Japanese citizenship and asked if she could have both; Japan said no. They very rarely give out dual citizenship and her case wouldn't qualify. So she had to give it up and get Russian citizenship to skate in the Olympics.

If they didn't give dual citizenship for her, they won't for Tran under the same circumstances, nor should they.

sorcerer · May 18, 2012

Mousepotato, if Narumi asks Japanese government to allow her dual citizenship, the answer would be the same "no" as it was for Yuko.

The difference is their partners; Markuntsov was in Junior days, Smirnov never competed for Japan, OTOH Tran yes and brought Worlds medal to Japan, and has a chance (little or much we can argue) of bringing Olypic medal too.

skfan · May 18, 2012

sorcerer said:
IMO it's not that simple. Japanese government can give Japanese citizenship but can't give Russian citizenship.

You know, a petition to give Tran Japanese nationality would be very supportive for those pro-Tran Diet members.
Messages from abroad will be more powerful than domestic voices.

sorcerer, i appreciate your voice of reason and knowledge, but there's just one thing i don't understand. you say a message from abroad would be more powerful than petitions within japan from supportive japanese citizens? i would assume since these diet members elected by japanese citizens, those very citizens with the power to oust them would be the voices they would listen to.

are you aware of any supportive petitions within japan?

redwing · May 18, 2012

sorcerer said:
Mousepotato, if Narumi asks Japanese government to allow her dual citizenship, the answer would be the same "no" as it was for Yuko.

The difference is their partners; Markuntsov was in Junior days, Smirnov never competed for Japan, OTOH Tran yes and brought Worlds medal to Japan, and has a chance (little or much we can argue) of bringing Olypic medal too.

Your comparison is completely biased. Yuko and Markuntsov had similar success as T/T in juniors when you consider they were together less. T/T won the first world medal for Japan but Yuko and Markuntsov were the first Japanese pair to medal at ISU championship when they won silver at juniors in 2001. Only because Markuntsov couldn't receive citizenship did they decide it was best to break their relationship. There is no doubt in my mind Yuko and her partner would have won Japan it's first world medal had they stayed together. So you can't argue that since Tran helped Japan receive its first world medal he deserves citizenship more than Markuntsov.

Regardless, I'm happy for Yuko and Alexander Smirnoff for their sucessess. I really wish they had medalled at the olympics but they should still be proud of everything. Likewise, I'm happy for T/T and Tran seems like a nice guy but he doesn't deserve any special consideration for citizenship.

sorcerer · May 18, 2012

Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you, redwing.

I am only portraying the stance the Ministry or the Diet would logically take.
What is "biased" from the figure skating point of view is different from the literal logic of legislature.

sorcerer · May 18, 2012

skfan said:
... you say a message from abroad would be more powerful than petitions within japan from supportive japanese citizens? ... are you aware of any supportive petitions within japan?

Well this may be a cultural matter but authorities here tend to value voices from abroad as proof of objectivity, IMO.
Anything international tend to be more prestigeous.

I assume personal petitions are sent to the JSF, and maybe also to the office of its president Seiko Hashimoto, a Diet member; how much in number at this moment I don't know. I havn't seen group action as of yet, but perhaps may come soon.

Olympia · May 18, 2012

sorcerer said:
Well this may be a cultural matter but authorities here tend to value voices from abroad as proof of objectivity, IMO.
Anything international tend to be more prestigious.

That's really interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that, sorcerer.

skfan · May 18, 2012

it's a surprise to me as well. thank you, sorcerer, for the insight.

ETA:

wasn't allison reed able to skate with her ice dance partner in the olympics without securing... was it georgian citizenship? isn't it possible for an athlete to skate in the olympics without citizenship on some occasions? i think that would make the most sense. if all that required for allison to participate was georgia's olympic committee (if it was indeed georgia) giving the ok, and the japanese olympic committee is willing to 'work with tran'... then .... ???? is there a special reason that option has not been explored? did the IOC close a loop hole after allison reed skated in olympics or something like that?

i truly hate the fact that the olympics are viewed as all that. but since a skater i am fond of has this very same mindset, i wish there were a way he could participate without raising the ire of japanese, canadians, americans who consider him an opportunist, etc. and yes, i am still bitter about olympics 1994, 1998, 2002... LOL

Tran's naturalization process hits snag

Mrs. P

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