Tran's naturalization process hits snag | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Tran's naturalization process hits snag

redwing

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you, redwing.

I am only portraying the stance the Ministry or the Diet would logically take.
What is "biased" from the figure skating point of view is different from the literal logic of legislature.

I'm sorry but how do you form your opinion that granting Tran special citizenship status would be logical to do ?

It would be political suicide to grant Tran, a foreigner who can't even speak Japanese special rights when there are so many more troubling issues such as:

1) Japanese economy is getting worse, GDP growth has been falling for the past several years, debt to GDP ratio is increasing, China has passed Japan as the second strongest economy with worries S. Korea may pass Japan also.

2) Diet pass law to phase out nuclear plants, which will cause Japanese to be out of work in an already bad economy, depending on outside source of energy has helped create first trade deficit in almost 30 years.

3) Japan birth rate is very low and more immigrants trying to move in every day protesting unfair discrimination but never mind these countries they come from have worse policies, China on human rights and Korea is more homogenous and just as bad prejudice against foreigners.

4) PM Noda did't goto Yasukuni Shrine because he didn't want to "upset China and Korea" when he was fine with it before he was PM. Also the government decision to join TPP last year was debatable.

These are just some issues, many more important that whether Tran gets special treatment and becomes citizen.

Last elections most Japanese said they did not feel confident with the Diet, the next election is 2013. The DPJ or LDP is not going to risk loosing more power for some foreigner when there are too many more important issues Japanese people want addressed.

Maybe I'm wrong but if so tell me why you think it's logical step to Tran citizenship.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
When Mervin Tran gets Japanese citizenship, I'll see a pig flying across the sky in front of my house.

:laugh: I wanna see your face!
I will let you know right away when Mervin gets the citizenship. Please send me a picture with you and a flying pig in the sky.

I burst into laughing and my hubby looks at me suspiciously...;)
Lifted up my feeling. What a nice way to start my day off, after waking up very late Saturday morning!
Thanks for that, blue_idealist! :)
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I`m not a huge fan of `team or nation shopping` I think they shouldn`t allow him to get citizenship; rules shoujldn`t be broken.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Mousepotato, if Narumi asks Japanese government to allow her dual citizenship, the answer would be the same "no" as it was for Yuko.

The difference is their partners; Markuntsov was in Junior days, Smirnov never competed for Japan, OTOH Tran yes and brought Worlds medal to Japan, and has a chance (little or much we can argue) of bringing Olypic medal too.

K/M were seniors not juniors. Kavaguti asked if dual citizenship was possible before she applied for Russian citizenship and she was told no.

There is no difference. Smirnov would not have been given citizenship either unless he fulfilled the proper requirements. Like living there for 5 years, learning the language including being able and speak it and write it fluently. Japan does not allow dual citizenship in almost all circumstances esp. for skaters. Maybe you think "one" bronze medal is enough but they seem to disagree. T/T couldn't even win at the WTT a few weeks later and S/S-V/T-P/T and K/S were missing.

Your comparison is completely biased. Yuko and Markuntsov had similar success as T/T in juniors when you consider they were together less. T/T won the first world medal for Japan but Yuko and Markuntsov were the first Japanese pair to medal at ISU championship when they won silver at juniors in 2001. Only because Markuntsov couldn't receive citizenship did they decide it was best to break their relationship. There is no doubt in my mind Yuko and her partner would have won Japan it's first world medal had they stayed together. So you can't argue that since Tran helped Japan receive its first world medal he deserves citizenship more than Markuntsov.

Regardless, I'm happy for Yuko and Alexander Smirnoff for their sucessess. I really wish they had medalled at the olympics but they should still be proud of everything. Likewise, I'm happy for T/T and Tran seems like a nice guy but he doesn't deserve any special consideration for citizenship.

I have to disagree about K/M success; they were not all that great together. Smirnov is 100% times better which is why Yuko has had far more success with him that her previous partners. K/M wouldn’t have gone very far even with citizenship.
 

sorcerer

Final Flight
Joined
May 1, 2007
....Maybe I'm wrong but if so tell me why you think it's logical step to Tran citizenship.

Aside from the several issues you raised which I personally think won't have any impact on this Tran matter, you are not "wrong" as long as you use the word "logical" in the sense that there are much more important things for the Diet.

But to increase the possibility of Oly medals is a non-partisan matter that'll enlighten whole Japan, its economical effect is rather positive and never negative.

Once the fear of "Tran's dual citizenship becoming a precedent" is decreased by enveloping it into the 2-years frame, there isn't anything written in the Japanese law to completely refuse the procedure (this I called literally logical).
And Tran won't be an opportunist because he'll have never asked or applied for this.
In fact Tran has only said that he'll leave the whole matter to the JSF.
It will be the Japan side asking him to skate for the country he has represented for some time.

ETA; Mousepotato, whose dual citizenship did you mention Yuko asked for? I've no knowledge about that.
 
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redwing

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Aside from the several issues you raised which I personally think won't have any impact on this Tran matter, you are not "wrong" as long as you use the word "logical" in the sense that there are much more important things for the Diet.

But to increase the possibility of Oly medals is a non-partisan matter that'll enlighten whole Japan, it's economical effect is rather positive and never negative.

Once the fear of "Tran's dual citizenship becoming a precedent" is decreased by enveloping it into the 2-years frame, there isn't anything written in the Japanese law to completely refuse the procedure (this I called literally logical).
And Tran won't be an opportunist because he'll have never asked or applied for this.
In fact Tran has only said that he'll leave the whole matter to the JSF.
It will be the Japan side asking him to skate for the country he has represented for some time.

ETA; Mousepotato, whose dual citizenship did you mention Yuko asked for? I've no knowledge about that.

Of course Tran isn't initiating anything because he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on the matter.

Politicians aren't stupid with upcoming elections and general dissatisfaction with the Diet. They'll review the matter for awhile and it will be denied, that way the JSF saves face by saying they did everything they could.
 

StellaCampo

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
I`m not a huge fan of `team or nation shopping` I think they shouldn`t allow him to get citizenship; rules shoujldn`t be broken.

I totally agree. I also don't know what's Japanese about T/T. OK she has a Japanese passport & DNA, but I understand she did much of her pair training first in China, where, according to an interview, she learned to go up high on twists even only with single/double ones, etc. She then teamed up with a Canadian, trains in Canada with nono-Japanese coaches. OK they are funded (is that right?) by a Japanese organisation, but funding doesn't decide the country representation of a skater (John Curry was funded by an American billionnaire who had til then only funded American skaters.) T/T are more Canadian than Japanese.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I never thought of the funding aspect before, but of course that makes it awkward for T and T to skate for anyone other than Japan. After all, Japan subsidized much of their training, and it would hardly be fair for them to take the fruits of that training to another country. What a pickle this is: they can't compete in the Olympics for Japan, and competing for anyone else would be equally undesirable.
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
The strange circumstances are what makes this story so interesting. Yet, as it is right now, everyone is comfortable with them competing for Japan outside of the Olympics. Intuitively, most of us (I am) are quite comfortable with their medal being a medal for Japan. (No one else was willing to come forward and put money behind them for the benefit of the sport . . . and they really are a fantastic addition to the sport.) I know that there is no way (H*ll could freeze over if there is another glazier age, I suppose) that Japan will give Tran citizenship. But really, if we already feel comfortable with them competing for Japan on an international basis, it doesn't make sense to me that we would be uncomfortable with them representing Japan at the Olympics. (I don't see them as shopping here because, although there are degrees of separation, there is also a real and substantial connection to Japan.)
 

sorcerer

Final Flight
Joined
May 1, 2007
I'd like to make myself clear that I'm pro-T/T but neither pro nor con dual citizenship.
I think it's stupid that IOC and ISU have different criteria on nationality.

Why not give T/T a chance to represent the SPORT itself in the Oly games?

Whenever K/S medals the Japanese skating fans are happy for Yuko.
Same was with Rena.

In the end, Olympics should be an event promoting cross-border sympathies between nations via the same sport(s) and the atheletes devoting their same best efforts for it.
 
Joined
Mar 11, 2011
Rules are rules and allowing foreigners to compete for the country just because Olympics are about "cross border sympathies" would cause hell a lot of confusion and nonsenses in the sport and beyond.
 

redwing

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Rules are rules and allowing foreigners to compete for the country just because Olympics are about "cross border sympathies" would cause hell a lot of confusion and nonsenses in the sport and beyond.

Yes, hell alot of confusion for Cinquanta to decide to be paid in US dollars, Rubles, Pounds, Euros, Yen, Yuan, Won or Canadian Dollars

:points: :rofl:
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
a) It would be easy for the IOC to change the rules allowing this kind of cross-national team to represent one without citizenship and to do so without infringing upon the intent of the rule (to stop country-hopping).

b) Yu Na Kim is Korean, but training in Canada with a Canadian coach and choreographer. Anyone think she's less Korean because of it? Or how about Dai? His choreographer is Italian. He did some training in France. Hell, the music he skated to was a French composition in a profoundly American mode. Take a gander at the Detroit school: Canadian (Shae-Lynn Bourne), Russian (Krylova), Italian (Camerlengo, Scali), and American (Swallow) coaching teams from the USA (Hubbells), Canada (W/P), France (P/B) and Australian (O'Brien/Merriman). What, should they all represent Canitalrusafralia?

c) Alison Reed got her Georgian citizenship in January, 2010 (Source)

d) I'm not arguing for Tran's citizenship. To me, his attempt here is more a means to an end (that is, competing at the Olympics) than a genuine attempt to become Japanese. I'd like to see them at the Olympics, though.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
b) Yu Na Kim is Korean, but training in Canada with a Canadian coach and choreographer. Anyone think she's less Korean because of it?

No, BUT she should have given Canada much more credit for her win that she did; both flags should have been hoisted when she won.

Just like when T/T gets a medal (just because they get money from Japan) Canada does everything else and should get just as much credit.

Narumi has been living in Canada long enough, she was the one who should have been getting her citizenship not Tran for Japan.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Okay. Don't agree, but it's an interesting point of view, and I have to admit, I get a kick out of the Canadian flag being hoisted at any competition.
 

skfan

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
The strange circumstances are what makes this story so interesting. Yet, as it is right now, everyone is comfortable with them competing for Japan outside of the Olympics. Intuitively, most of us (I am) are quite comfortable with their medal being a medal for Japan. (No one else was willing to come forward and put money behind them for the benefit of the sport . . . and they really are a fantastic addition to the sport.) I know that there is no way (H*ll could freeze over if there is another glazier age, I suppose) that Japan will give Tran citizenship. But really, if we already feel comfortable with them competing for Japan on an international basis, it doesn't make sense to me that we would be uncomfortable with them representing Japan at the Olympics. (I don't see them as shopping here because, although there are degrees of separation, there is also a real and substantial connection to Japan.)

to me this is a good point. what is this enormous difference between the olympics and other competitions? yes, i know what it is--endorsement dollars, wheaties boxes, blah blah blah. i just think it's absurdly overblown.

could someone more knowledgeable than me talk a bit about the case of allison reed? from what i understand she was allowed to skate in the olympics with a georgian partner, even though she did not have georgian citizenship. the reason she was approved for this by the georgian olympic authorities (again from my understanding, which may not be accurate) was because her presence enabled her partner, who is a proper georgian citizen, an opportunity to skate in the olympics.

was this a one time only loop-hole? has some rule been enacted to make sure it can't happen again? i remember reading that the head of the japanese olympic committee or some similar organization had said the organization would be willing to work with mervin. isn't that enough in and of itself--invoking the allison reed precedent--without his having to pursue japanese citizenship?

IP says it gives him a kick to see the canadian flag hoisted, and i understand and respect that, but this american likes the luxury of pretending all the world is one big cranky family (with petty jealousies and squabbles--murders happen within families too). and if i like mao's skating and mao's programs best, i am not rooting for ashley wagner to beat mao just because it's the olympics. my national pride isn't subject to a 4 year cycle. it'll be the same as this year, when i wasn't rooting for ashley wagner over mao at this year's worlds.
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
No, BUT she [KIM] should have given Canada much more credit for her win that she did; both flags should have been hoisted when she won.

Chan had US coaches this season. Should the US flag have been hoisted along with the Canadian flag when he won Worlds?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
:laugh: I wanna see your face!
I will let you know right away when Mervin gets the citizenship. Please send me a picture with you and a flying pig in the sky.

I burst into laughing and my hubby looks at me suspiciously...;)
Lifted up my feeling. What a nice way to start my day off, after waking up very late Saturday morning!
Thanks for that, blue_idealist! :)

Hahaha, thanks.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
FWIW, I hope Tran can at least get a 'pass' so he and his partner can compete in the Olympics. He is NEVER going to get citizenship. One of my closest friends moved to Japan in the late 90s. He was a MD/PhD and brilliant in his field. Absolutely fell in love with Japan, and fell in love with a Japanese woman. He worked hard to learn Japanese (and let's face it, it is not like picking up Spanish or Italian) and was denied citizenship. I couldn't believe it. Japanese are VERY strict with handing out citizenships. They just don't do it. Doesn't matter if it forfeits an Olympic medal. You kind of have to respect their strictness, they do not waver. So everyone knows the deal. As for my friend he married his wife and they moved back to the USA and she had to renounce her Japanese citizenship. So from my experience, the Japanese government would rather LOSE one of their own than take in a foreigner. It is impossible to think otherwise.
 
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