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Thread: Tran's naturalization process hits snag

  1. #16
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Like I wrote before, it's by "Article 9" of the Nationality Act of Japan that Tran is being planned by a large number of Diet members to be given citizenship, and this Article 9 DOES NOT require Tran to lose Canadian citizenship at all. Moreover, it even doesn't require Tran to apply for it.
    This type of Japanese Citizenship, though never put in act before, is determined solely by the will of the Diet, formally speaking, as a "gift".

    If it were obtaining Japanese citizenship using the other clauses, then yes Tran would lose Canadian citizenship, but those other clauses won't let him apply because of language and residence.
    But no, this is nothing about losing Canadian citizenship.
    I'm surprised people keep bringing this up. You do realize Article 9 is reserved for someone of Japanese ethnicity who is not a citizen ? It's not explicitly stated as such due to political reasons but it will never be invoked for a foreigner. The Japanese have a very strong sense of national unity, if you were to ask the average Japanese what race they view themselves, they would answer Japanese, not asian.

    Non Japanese may think this view strange but it's really simple. A Japanese citizen is nothing without his country, and everything that makes Japan unique, the culture, language, history and identity must be preserved otherwise it is in constant danger of being lost. This is not extremist as every Japanese citizen regardless of political party, devotes themselves to Japan to prevent such disappearance. Every Japanese citizen contributes what they can for the nation, whether they are soldiers to guard the borders, businessmen to earn money for their nation, artists to express the nation's creativity, and athletes to display the nation's physical prowess.

    People remark how well Japanese people handled the earthquake/tsunami disaster and nuclear calamity without mass chaos. Maybe some understand why after what i just wrote.
    Last edited by redwing; 05-16-2012 at 05:09 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Like I wrote before, it's by "Article 9" of the Nationality Act of Japan that Tran is being planned by a large number of Diet members to be given citizenship, and this Article 9 DOES NOT require Tran to lose Canadian citizenship at all. .
    I had a quick look at this Nationality Act and Art. 9 but I cannot work out how you arrived at the conclusion that Art.9 does not require Tran to lose Canadian Citizenship. All that Art 9 says is that it allows Art. 5, Clause 1 to be overriden, ie the 5 year residency requirement. Art. 9 does NOT say that it overrides Art. 5, Clause 5 (condition either that the person currently has no nationality or that he shall lose his current nationality). Anyway, this is a FS forum not a legal forum!!

  3. #18
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwing View Post
    I'm surprised people keep bringing this up. You do realize Article 9 is reserved for someone of Japanese ethnicity who is not a citizen ? It's not explicitly stated as such due to political reasons but it will never be invoked for a foreigner. The Japanese have a very strong sense of national unity, if you were to ask the average Japanese what race they view themselves, they would answer Japanese, not asian.

    Non Japanese may think this view strange but it's really simple. A Japanese citizen is nothing without his country, and everything that makes Japan unique, the culture, language, history and identity must be preserved otherwise it is in constant danger of being lost. This is not extremist as every Japanese citizen regardless of political party, devotes themselves to Japan to prevent such disappearance. Every Japanese citizen contributes what they can for the nation, whether they are soldiers to guard the borders, businessmen to earn money for their nation, artists to express the nation's creativity, and athletes to display the nation's physical prowess.

    People remark how well Japanese people handled the earthquake/tsunami disaster and nuclear calamity without mass chaos. Maybe some understand why after what i just wrote.
    Well, in that cause couldn't you argue that is what Tran has done here? By pairing up with Narumi, he has enabled her to express the nation's physical prowess to the best of her ability.

    I find it interesting that Japan (as a whole) seem keen on being picky about citizenship as a way to preserve culture/pride but yet they the JSF thinks nothing about sending its skaters to foreign coaches.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Well, in that cause couldn't you argue that is what Tran has done here? By pairing up with Narumi, he has enabled her to express the nation's physical prowess to the best of her ability.

    I find it interesting that Japan (as a whole) seem keen on being picky about citizenship as a way to preserve culture/pride but yet they the JSF thinks nothing about sending its skaters to foreign coaches.
    You make it sound like foreign coaches are doing this just out of pure goodness, or that foreign coaches will stop taking Japanese skaters unless Tran receives citizenship. The reality is noone forced them and they are being compensated for their services and in some cases very well. It is a mutual beneficial arrangement and really has no bearing on Japanese policy regarding citizenship.

    How many years has Tran represented Japan ? 5 years ongoing and he still doesn't speak the language. Japan has enough problems now that average Japanese person doesn't care about Tran. Japanese cares about the nation and unity. People keep making circular arguments of what about this, or why not this, or how come that, but the bottom line is he won't get citizenship.

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    It's quite easy to get Canadian citizenship for the simple reason that Canada is a very large country with a very small population (about 1/10 of the US population). Canada welcomes immigrants and makes the citizenship process fairly simple: residence is required for three of the four years preceding the application, and special accommodations can be made for people of unusual ability. Every year, 170,000 people become Canadian citizens.

  6. #21
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwing View Post
    You make it sound like foreign coaches are doing this just out of pure goodness, or that foreign coaches will stop taking Japanese skaters unless Tran receives citizenship. The reality is noone forced them and they are being compensated for their services and in some cases very well. It is a mutual beneficial arrangement and really has no bearing on Japanese policy regarding citizenship.

    How many years has Tran represented Japan ? 5 years ongoing and he still doesn't speak the language. Japan has enough problems now that average Japanese person doesn't care about Tran. Japanese cares about the nation and unity. People keep making circular arguments of what about this, or why not this, or how come that, but the bottom line is he won't get citizenship.
    So that means people can't express their opinion on why he should? I don't know why you find it so terrible that people are expressing their opinions on why Tran should get citizenship. It's not like the Japanese government reads this board. (Or do they? )

    From where I sit, even if JSF/Tran fail, they will have at least had the opportunity to open some dialogue on the topic of citizenship and national pride. I don't see that as a bad thing.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by StellaCampo View Post
    I had a quick look at this Nationality Act and Art. 9 but I cannot work out how you arrived at the conclusion that Art.9 does not require Tran to lose Canadian Citizenship. All that Art 9 says is that it allows Art. 5, Clause 1 to be overriden, ie the 5 year residency requirement. Art. 9 does NOT say that it overrides Art. 5, Clause 5 (condition either that the person currently has no nationality or that he shall lose his current nationality).
    You didn't read well and I didn't explain well.
    Paragraph 2 of Ariticle 5 allows what those sports-associated Diet members are going to propose.
    There will be no asking to give up Canadian citizenship if that is the Diet's will.
    The Ministry can grumble anytime but can't disobey Diet.
    All they are doing is expressing their wishes to the Diet not to put Art. 9 in act,
    and the only rationale they expressed is that "there's no precedent of such" LOL.

    So Tran's nationality thing depends on whether those Diet members can or cannot persuade the majority of the Diet.

    ETA. References if you can read Japanese.
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B8%...B8.B0.E5.8C.96
    http://www.nakamura-shiho.com/245-1/24525/
    Last edited by sorcerer; 05-16-2012 at 08:25 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    So that means people can't express their opinion on why he should? I don't know why you find it so terrible that people are expressing their opinions on why Tran should get citizenship. It's not like the Japanese government reads this board. (Or do they? )

    From where I sit, even if JSF/Tran fail, they will have at least had the opportunity to open some dialogue on the topic of citizenship and national pride. I don't see that as a bad thing.
    I don't have anything against him as a person and we live in a free society so you are entitle to your opinions. I'm not mod or thought police here so I won't delete your post if I disagree with you

    I will say however since I am not us citizen, I don't feel it is proper for me to address immigration policies of that country and whether it is right or wrong. Even if their president and congress says they should grant mass citizenship as they do now, I wouldn't address it because I know it is a touchy subject for many americans. I mean who am I to say some foreigner should or shouldn't become a citizen in that country. It's up to that country and elected officials to decide their own fate.

  9. #24
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    Though I have my personal opinions and some feelings toward a couple of posts here, this sort of topic is 'lets-wait-and-see' thing for all of us...

    While doing so myself, I would rather enjoy their great performances from the recent Worlds, then share the epoch-making moment and celebrate together with Narumi and Mervin.

    SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w

    FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY

    Agree with British Eurosport, just one word "GORGEOUS!"

    Thank you so much once again, Narumi & Mervin!
    Almost 2 months since then, but you guys give me thrills and goosebumps, and still make me smile and cry at the same time with your wonderful performances!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w

    FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY

    Agree with British Eurosport, just one word "GORGEOUS!"

    Thank you so much once again, Narumi & Mervin!
    Almost 2 months since then, but you guys give me thrills and goosebumps, and still make me smile and cry at the same time with your wonderful performances!
    Thanks so much for the links! Yeah, it also made me smile and cry, what a fantastic couple they are...

  11. #26
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Also for your viewing pleasure, cute photos of Uncle Mervin with his little niece (whose first birthday was May 13):

    http://twitter.com/#!/skate_moivo/st...32640163758080

    http://twitter.com/#!/melipetit/stat...01500754296832

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    You didn't read well and I didn't explain well.
    Paragraph 2 of Ariticle 5 allows what those sports-associated Diet members are going to propose.
    There will be no asking to give up Canadian citizenship if that is the Diet's will.
    The Ministry can grumble anytime but can't disobey Diet.
    All they are doing is expressing their wishes to the Diet not to put Art. 9 in act,
    and the only rationale they expressed is that "there's no precedent of such" LOL.

    So Tran's nationality thing depends on whether those Diet members can or cannot persuade the majority of the Diet.

    ETA. References if you can read Japanese.
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B8%...B8.B0.E5.8C.96
    http://www.nakamura-shiho.com/245-1/24525/
    Thank you for your clarification, it saves me going thro' google-translate. The fact that this Article dispenses with the requirement to waive the other nationality seems to make this treatment all the more special, does it not? Since, as I understand, it is extremely rare that the japanese government tolerates its citizen having dual citizenship.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwing View Post
    I'm surprised people keep bringing this up. You do realize Article 9 is reserved for someone of Japanese ethnicity who is not a citizen ? It's not explicitly stated as such due to political reasons but it will never be invoked for a foreigner. The Japanese have a very strong sense of national unity, if you were to ask the average Japanese what race they view themselves, they would answer Japanese, not asian.

    Non Japanese may think this view strange but it's really simple. A Japanese citizen is nothing without his country, and everything that makes Japan unique, the culture, language, history and identity must be preserved otherwise it is in constant danger of being lost. This is not extremist as every Japanese citizen regardless of political party, devotes themselves to Japan to prevent such disappearance. Every Japanese citizen contributes what they can for the nation, whether they are soldiers to guard the borders, businessmen to earn money for their nation, artists to express the nation's creativity, and athletes to display the nation's physical prowess.

    People remark how well Japanese people handled the earthquake/tsunami disaster and nuclear calamity without mass chaos. Maybe some understand why after what i just wrote.
    This is the impression I have always gotten about Japanese identity. In some ways, we in the U.S. and Canada are in the weakest position to understand this outlook because we are both nations made by immigrants, and immigrants from very diverse areas at that. Even the original "founding generation" of the actual United States, in the 1770s, was made up of people from Britain (including Scotland and Ireland), the Netherlands, Germany, and Scandinavia, all of whom spoke different languages when they got here. That doesn't even take into account the First Nations (the preferred term in the U.S. is apparently now American Indians again), or Africans, who first arrived in 1619. The idea of a complete cultural, religious, and ethnic homogeneity is not something we are based on. (Yes, I know there are some Americans who want that. They don't speak for all of us.) So we North Americans have to reach a bit to understand the Japanese way of looking at national identity. That's their prerogative. It certainly preserves the culture, which is an admirable goal.

    That being said, I don't have great expectations of Tran being awarded Japanese citizenship, but as the saying goes, never say never. Either way, I hope he and Takahashi get to skate together internationally for a long time to come.

  14. #29
    nefertiti..reincarnate
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    Quote Originally Posted by StellaCampo View Post
    ... it is extremely rare that the japanese government tolerates its citizen having dual citizenship.
    Yes, it's rare but the Ministry did once admit Alberto Fujimori (former Peruvian President) his Japanese nationality and he became de facto a dual citizenship holder.
    I agree that this is not a legal forum so I limit myself to saying that the Article 14 (2 years period of choosing his nationality after becoming a dual citizenship holder) can be applied for Tran as a compromise between the pro-Tran Diet members and the Ministry of Legislation .... the latter not wanting an easy example to be established as a future "precedent".
    Though merely an idea of mine but IMO realistic; Tran will be given Japanese nationality as a gift but with condition that he has to choose between the 2 citizenships within 2 years.
    Last edited by sorcerer; 05-17-2012 at 11:51 AM.

  15. #30
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    Though I have my personal opinions and some feelings toward a couple of posts here, this sort of topic is 'lets-wait-and-see' thing for all of us...

    While doing so myself, I would rather enjoy their great performances from the recent Worlds, then share the epoch-making moment and celebrate together with Narumi and Mervin.

    SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShxtSDpgp_w

    FP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61OOffoS0ZY

    Agree with British Eurosport, just one word "GORGEOUS!"

    Thank you so much once again, Narumi & Mervin!
    Almost 2 months since then, but you guys give me thrills and goosebumps, and still make me smile and cry at the same time with your wonderful performances!
    Good lord, they really were the highlight of the pairs event in Nice!

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