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Thread: Tran's naturalization process hits snag

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Though merely an idea of mine but IMO realistic; Tran will be given Japanese nationality as a gift but with condition that he has to choose between the 2 citizenships within 2 years.
    If they didn't give Yuko dual citizenship Tran doesn't stand a chance.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mousepotato View Post
    If they didn't give Yuko dual citizenship Tran doesn't stand a chance.
    IMO it's not that simple. Japanese government can give Japanese citizenship but can't give Russian citizenship.

    You know, a petition to give Tran Japanese nationality would be very supportive for those pro-Tran Diet members.
    Messages from abroad will be more powerful than domestic voices.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    IMO it's not that simple. Japanese government can give Japanese citizenship but can't give Russian citizenship.

    You know, a petition to give Tran Japanese nationality would be very supportive for those pro-Tran Diet members.
    Messages from abroad will be more powerful than domestic voices.
    Obviously Japan can't give Japanese citizenship. What I meant was, when Yuko was with her former partner and he couldn't get citizenship the only way Yuko could go to the Olympics (assuming Japan wouldn't give Smirnov citizenship if they didn't give it to Markuntsov) is to skate for Russia.

    She didn't want to give up her Japanese citizenship and asked if she could have both; Japan said no. They very rarely give out dual citizenship and her case wouldn't qualify. So she had to give it up and get Russian citizenship to skate in the Olympics.

    If they didn't give dual citizenship for her, they won't for Tran under the same circumstances, nor should they.

  4. #34
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    Mousepotato, if Narumi asks Japanese government to allow her dual citizenship, the answer would be the same "no" as it was for Yuko.

    The difference is their partners; Markuntsov was in Junior days, Smirnov never competed for Japan, OTOH Tran yes and brought Worlds medal to Japan, and has a chance (little or much we can argue) of bringing Olypic medal too.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    IMO it's not that simple. Japanese government can give Japanese citizenship but can't give Russian citizenship.

    You know, a petition to give Tran Japanese nationality would be very supportive for those pro-Tran Diet members.
    Messages from abroad will be more powerful than domestic voices.
    sorcerer, i appreciate your voice of reason and knowledge, but there's just one thing i don't understand. you say a message from abroad would be more powerful than petitions within japan from supportive japanese citizens? i would assume since these diet members elected by japanese citizens, those very citizens with the power to oust them would be the voices they would listen to.

    are you aware of any supportive petitions within japan?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Mousepotato, if Narumi asks Japanese government to allow her dual citizenship, the answer would be the same "no" as it was for Yuko.

    The difference is their partners; Markuntsov was in Junior days, Smirnov never competed for Japan, OTOH Tran yes and brought Worlds medal to Japan, and has a chance (little or much we can argue) of bringing Olypic medal too.
    Your comparison is completely biased. Yuko and Markuntsov had similar success as T/T in juniors when you consider they were together less. T/T won the first world medal for Japan but Yuko and Markuntsov were the first Japanese pair to medal at ISU championship when they won silver at juniors in 2001. Only because Markuntsov couldn't receive citizenship did they decide it was best to break their relationship. There is no doubt in my mind Yuko and her partner would have won Japan it's first world medal had they stayed together. So you can't argue that since Tran helped Japan receive its first world medal he deserves citizenship more than Markuntsov.

    Regardless, I'm happy for Yuko and Alexander Smirnoff for their sucessess. I really wish they had medalled at the olympics but they should still be proud of everything. Likewise, I'm happy for T/T and Tran seems like a nice guy but he doesn't deserve any special consideration for citizenship.

  7. #37
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    Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you, redwing.

    I am only portraying the stance the Ministry or the Diet would logically take.
    What is "biased" from the figure skating point of view is different from the literal logic of legislature.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by skfan View Post
    ... you say a message from abroad would be more powerful than petitions within japan from supportive japanese citizens? ... are you aware of any supportive petitions within japan?
    Well this may be a cultural matter but authorities here tend to value voices from abroad as proof of objectivity, IMO.
    Anything international tend to be more prestigeous.

    I assume personal petitions are sent to the JSF, and maybe also to the office of its president Seiko Hashimoto, a Diet member; how much in number at this moment I don't know. I havn't seen group action as of yet, but perhaps may come soon.
    Last edited by sorcerer; 05-18-2012 at 09:31 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Well this may be a cultural matter but authorities here tend to value voices from abroad as proof of objectivity, IMO.
    Anything international tend to be more prestigious.
    That's really interesting. I wouldn't have thought of that, sorcerer.

  10. #40
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    it's a surprise to me as well. thank you, sorcerer, for the insight.


    ETA:

    wasn't allison reed able to skate with her ice dance partner in the olympics without securing... was it georgian citizenship? isn't it possible for an athlete to skate in the olympics without citizenship on some occasions? i think that would make the most sense. if all that required for allison to participate was georgia's olympic committee (if it was indeed georgia) giving the ok, and the japanese olympic committee is willing to 'work with tran'... then .... ???? is there a special reason that option has not been explored? did the IOC close a loop hole after allison reed skated in olympics or something like that?

    i truly hate the fact that the olympics are viewed as all that. but since a skater i am fond of has this very same mindset, i wish there were a way he could participate without raising the ire of japanese, canadians, americans who consider him an opportunist, etc. and yes, i am still bitter about olympics 1994, 1998, 2002... LOL
    Last edited by skfan; 05-18-2012 at 11:52 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you, redwing.

    I am only portraying the stance the Ministry or the Diet would logically take.
    What is "biased" from the figure skating point of view is different from the literal logic of legislature.
    I'm sorry but how do you form your opinion that granting Tran special citizenship status would be logical to do ?

    It would be political suicide to grant Tran, a foreigner who can't even speak Japanese special rights when there are so many more troubling issues such as:

    1) Japanese economy is getting worse, GDP growth has been falling for the past several years, debt to GDP ratio is increasing, China has passed Japan as the second strongest economy with worries S. Korea may pass Japan also.

    2) Diet pass law to phase out nuclear plants, which will cause Japanese to be out of work in an already bad economy, depending on outside source of energy has helped create first trade deficit in almost 30 years.

    3) Japan birth rate is very low and more immigrants trying to move in every day protesting unfair discrimination but never mind these countries they come from have worse policies, China on human rights and Korea is more homogenous and just as bad prejudice against foreigners.

    4) PM Noda did't goto Yasukuni Shrine because he didn't want to "upset China and Korea" when he was fine with it before he was PM. Also the government decision to join TPP last year was debatable.

    These are just some issues, many more important that whether Tran gets special treatment and becomes citizen.

    Last elections most Japanese said they did not feel confident with the Diet, the next election is 2013. The DPJ or LDP is not going to risk loosing more power for some foreigner when there are too many more important issues Japanese people want addressed.

    Maybe I'm wrong but if so tell me why you think it's logical step to Tran citizenship.

  12. #42
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    When Mervin Tran gets Japanese citizenship, I'll see a pig flying across the sky in front of my house.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    When Mervin Tran gets Japanese citizenship, I'll see a pig flying across the sky in front of my house.
    I wanna see your face!
    I will let you know right away when Mervin gets the citizenship. Please send me a picture with you and a flying pig in the sky.

    I burst into laughing and my hubby looks at me suspiciously...
    Lifted up my feeling. What a nice way to start my day off, after waking up very late Saturday morning!
    Thanks for that, blue_idealist!

  14. #44
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    I`m not a huge fan of `team or nation shopping` I think they shouldn`t allow him to get citizenship; rules shoujldn`t be broken.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Mousepotato, if Narumi asks Japanese government to allow her dual citizenship, the answer would be the same "no" as it was for Yuko.

    The difference is their partners; Markuntsov was in Junior days, Smirnov never competed for Japan, OTOH Tran yes and brought Worlds medal to Japan, and has a chance (little or much we can argue) of bringing Olypic medal too.
    K/M were seniors not juniors. Kavaguti asked if dual citizenship was possible before she applied for Russian citizenship and she was told no.

    There is no difference. Smirnov would not have been given citizenship either unless he fulfilled the proper requirements. Like living there for 5 years, learning the language including being able and speak it and write it fluently. Japan does not allow dual citizenship in almost all circumstances esp. for skaters. Maybe you think "one" bronze medal is enough but they seem to disagree. T/T couldn't even win at the WTT a few weeks later and S/S-V/T-P/T and K/S were missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by redwing View Post
    Your comparison is completely biased. Yuko and Markuntsov had similar success as T/T in juniors when you consider they were together less. T/T won the first world medal for Japan but Yuko and Markuntsov were the first Japanese pair to medal at ISU championship when they won silver at juniors in 2001. Only because Markuntsov couldn't receive citizenship did they decide it was best to break their relationship. There is no doubt in my mind Yuko and her partner would have won Japan it's first world medal had they stayed together. So you can't argue that since Tran helped Japan receive its first world medal he deserves citizenship more than Markuntsov.

    Regardless, I'm happy for Yuko and Alexander Smirnoff for their sucessess. I really wish they had medalled at the olympics but they should still be proud of everything. Likewise, I'm happy for T/T and Tran seems like a nice guy but he doesn't deserve any special consideration for citizenship.
    I have to disagree about K/M success; they were not all that great together. Smirnov is 100% times better which is why Yuko has had far more success with him that her previous partners. K/M wouldn’t have gone very far even with citizenship.

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