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Thread: Tran's naturalization process hits snag

  1. #46
    nefertiti..reincarnate
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    Quote Originally Posted by redwing View Post
    ....Maybe I'm wrong but if so tell me why you think it's logical step to Tran citizenship.
    Aside from the several issues you raised which I personally think won't have any impact on this Tran matter, you are not "wrong" as long as you use the word "logical" in the sense that there are much more important things for the Diet.

    But to increase the possibility of Oly medals is a non-partisan matter that'll enlighten whole Japan, its economical effect is rather positive and never negative.

    Once the fear of "Tran's dual citizenship becoming a precedent" is decreased by enveloping it into the 2-years frame, there isn't anything written in the Japanese law to completely refuse the procedure (this I called literally logical).
    And Tran won't be an opportunist because he'll have never asked or applied for this.
    In fact Tran has only said that he'll leave the whole matter to the JSF.
    It will be the Japan side asking him to skate for the country he has represented for some time.

    ETA; Mousepotato, whose dual citizenship did you mention Yuko asked for? I've no knowledge about that.
    Last edited by sorcerer; 05-19-2012 at 08:46 AM. Reason: misspelling

  2. #47
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    Aside from the several issues you raised which I personally think won't have any impact on this Tran matter, you are not "wrong" as long as you use the word "logical" in the sense that there are much more important things for the Diet.

    But to increase the possibility of Oly medals is a non-partisan matter that'll enlighten whole Japan, it's economical effect is rather positive and never negative.

    Once the fear of "Tran's dual citizenship becoming a precedent" is decreased by enveloping it into the 2-years frame, there isn't anything written in the Japanese law to completely refuse the procedure (this I called literally logical).
    And Tran won't be an opportunist because he'll have never asked or applied for this.
    In fact Tran has only said that he'll leave the whole matter to the JSF.
    It will be the Japan side asking him to skate for the country he has represented for some time.

    ETA; Mousepotato, whose dual citizenship did you mention Yuko asked for? I've no knowledge about that.
    Of course Tran isn't initiating anything because he knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on the matter.

    Politicians aren't stupid with upcoming elections and general dissatisfaction with the Diet. They'll review the matter for awhile and it will be denied, that way the JSF saves face by saying they did everything they could.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I`m not a huge fan of `team or nation shopping` I think they shouldn`t allow him to get citizenship; rules shoujldn`t be broken.
    I totally agree. I also don't know what's Japanese about T/T. OK she has a Japanese passport & DNA, but I understand she did much of her pair training first in China, where, according to an interview, she learned to go up high on twists even only with single/double ones, etc. She then teamed up with a Canadian, trains in Canada with nono-Japanese coaches. OK they are funded (is that right?) by a Japanese organisation, but funding doesn't decide the country representation of a skater (John Curry was funded by an American billionnaire who had til then only funded American skaters.) T/T are more Canadian than Japanese.

  4. #49
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    I never thought of the funding aspect before, but of course that makes it awkward for T and T to skate for anyone other than Japan. After all, Japan subsidized much of their training, and it would hardly be fair for them to take the fruits of that training to another country. What a pickle this is: they can't compete in the Olympics for Japan, and competing for anyone else would be equally undesirable.

  5. #50
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    The strange circumstances are what makes this story so interesting. Yet, as it is right now, everyone is comfortable with them competing for Japan outside of the Olympics. Intuitively, most of us (I am) are quite comfortable with their medal being a medal for Japan. (No one else was willing to come forward and put money behind them for the benefit of the sport . . . and they really are a fantastic addition to the sport.) I know that there is no way (H*ll could freeze over if there is another glazier age, I suppose) that Japan will give Tran citizenship. But really, if we already feel comfortable with them competing for Japan on an international basis, it doesn't make sense to me that we would be uncomfortable with them representing Japan at the Olympics. (I don't see them as shopping here because, although there are degrees of separation, there is also a real and substantial connection to Japan.)

  6. #51
    nefertiti..reincarnate
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    I'd like to make myself clear that I'm pro-T/T but neither pro nor con dual citizenship.
    I think it's stupid that IOC and ISU have different criteria on nationality.

    Why not give T/T a chance to represent the SPORT itself in the Oly games?

    Whenever K/S medals the Japanese skating fans are happy for Yuko.
    Same was with Rena.

    In the end, Olympics should be an event promoting cross-border sympathies between nations via the same sport(s) and the atheletes devoting their same best efforts for it.

  7. #52
    Simply the best. l'etoile's Avatar
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    Rules are rules and allowing foreigners to compete for the country just because Olympics are about "cross border sympathies" would cause hell a lot of confusion and nonsenses in the sport and beyond.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Rules are rules and allowing foreigners to compete for the country just because Olympics are about "cross border sympathies" would cause hell a lot of confusion and nonsenses in the sport and beyond.
    Yes, hell alot of confusion for Cinquanta to decide to be paid in US dollars, Rubles, Pounds, Euros, Yen, Yuan, Won or Canadian Dollars


  9. #54
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    a) It would be easy for the IOC to change the rules allowing this kind of cross-national team to represent one without citizenship and to do so without infringing upon the intent of the rule (to stop country-hopping).

    b) Yu Na Kim is Korean, but training in Canada with a Canadian coach and choreographer. Anyone think she's less Korean because of it? Or how about Dai? His choreographer is Italian. He did some training in France. Hell, the music he skated to was a French composition in a profoundly American mode. Take a gander at the Detroit school: Canadian (Shae-Lynn Bourne), Russian (Krylova), Italian (Camerlengo, Scali), and American (Swallow) coaching teams from the USA (Hubbells), Canada (W/P), France (P/B) and Australian (O'Brien/Merriman). What, should they all represent Canitalrusafralia?

    c) Alison Reed got her Georgian citizenship in January, 2010 (Source)

    d) I'm not arguing for Tran's citizenship. To me, his attempt here is more a means to an end (that is, competing at the Olympics) than a genuine attempt to become Japanese. I'd like to see them at the Olympics, though.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    b) Yu Na Kim is Korean, but training in Canada with a Canadian coach and choreographer. Anyone think she's less Korean because of it?
    No, BUT she should have given Canada much more credit for her win that she did; both flags should have been hoisted when she won.

    Just like when T/T gets a medal (just because they get money from Japan) Canada does everything else and should get just as much credit.

    Narumi has been living in Canada long enough, she was the one who should have been getting her citizenship not Tran for Japan.

  11. #56
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    Okay. Don't agree, but it's an interesting point of view, and I have to admit, I get a kick out of the Canadian flag being hoisted at any competition.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    The strange circumstances are what makes this story so interesting. Yet, as it is right now, everyone is comfortable with them competing for Japan outside of the Olympics. Intuitively, most of us (I am) are quite comfortable with their medal being a medal for Japan. (No one else was willing to come forward and put money behind them for the benefit of the sport . . . and they really are a fantastic addition to the sport.) I know that there is no way (H*ll could freeze over if there is another glazier age, I suppose) that Japan will give Tran citizenship. But really, if we already feel comfortable with them competing for Japan on an international basis, it doesn't make sense to me that we would be uncomfortable with them representing Japan at the Olympics. (I don't see them as shopping here because, although there are degrees of separation, there is also a real and substantial connection to Japan.)
    to me this is a good point. what is this enormous difference between the olympics and other competitions? yes, i know what it is--endorsement dollars, wheaties boxes, blah blah blah. i just think it's absurdly overblown.

    could someone more knowledgeable than me talk a bit about the case of allison reed? from what i understand she was allowed to skate in the olympics with a georgian partner, even though she did not have georgian citizenship. the reason she was approved for this by the georgian olympic authorities (again from my understanding, which may not be accurate) was because her presence enabled her partner, who is a proper georgian citizen, an opportunity to skate in the olympics.

    was this a one time only loop-hole? has some rule been enacted to make sure it can't happen again? i remember reading that the head of the japanese olympic committee or some similar organization had said the organization would be willing to work with mervin. isn't that enough in and of itself--invoking the allison reed precedent--without his having to pursue japanese citizenship?

    IP says it gives him a kick to see the canadian flag hoisted, and i understand and respect that, but this american likes the luxury of pretending all the world is one big cranky family (with petty jealousies and squabbles--murders happen within families too). and if i like mao's skating and mao's programs best, i am not rooting for ashley wagner to beat mao just because it's the olympics. my national pride isn't subject to a 4 year cycle. it'll be the same as this year, when i wasn't rooting for ashley wagner over mao at this year's worlds.
    Last edited by skfan; 05-19-2012 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mousepotato View Post
    No, BUT she [KIM] should have given Canada much more credit for her win that she did; both flags should have been hoisted when she won.
    Chan had US coaches this season. Should the US flag have been hoisted along with the Canadian flag when he won Worlds?

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    I wanna see your face!
    I will let you know right away when Mervin gets the citizenship. Please send me a picture with you and a flying pig in the sky.

    I burst into laughing and my hubby looks at me suspiciously...
    Lifted up my feeling. What a nice way to start my day off, after waking up very late Saturday morning!
    Thanks for that, blue_idealist!
    Hahaha, thanks.

  15. #60
    Sometimes bad skating happens to good people... LiamForeman's Avatar
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    FWIW, I hope Tran can at least get a 'pass' so he and his partner can compete in the Olympics. He is NEVER going to get citizenship. One of my closest friends moved to Japan in the late 90s. He was a MD/PhD and brilliant in his field. Absolutely fell in love with Japan, and fell in love with a Japanese woman. He worked hard to learn Japanese (and let's face it, it is not like picking up Spanish or Italian) and was denied citizenship. I couldn't believe it. Japanese are VERY strict with handing out citizenships. They just don't do it. Doesn't matter if it forfeits an Olympic medal. You kind of have to respect their strictness, they do not waver. So everyone knows the deal. As for my friend he married his wife and they moved back to the USA and she had to renounce her Japanese citizenship. So from my experience, the Japanese government would rather LOSE one of their own than take in a foreigner. It is impossible to think otherwise.

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