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Thread: How Levels and GOE are Determined in Ice Dance - Spins

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    How Levels and GOE are Determined in Ice Dance - Spins

    Now that we've finished examining the scoring and history of lifts, in this thread:

    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...ce-Dance-Lifts



    I'd like to move on to looking at dance spins. If you have any questions before I start, I hope you'll ask questions now!
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 06-01-2012 at 01:07 PM.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, let's take a Spin

    To begin, let's refer again to the "ISU Judging System: Handbook for Technical Panels," page 20-28, Dance Spins, dated July 15, 2011, and otherwise known as

    http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vf...-0-file,00.pdf

    The rules described are taken from ISU Communication 1677
    http://www.usfsa.org/Content/ISU%20Comm%201677.pdf

    And from time to time, I will also be citing the "ISU Judging System: Handbook for Judges and Referees," dated July 15, 2011.
    http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vf...-0-file,00.pdf

    Again, I caution any reader that I am just a serious fan, and if I make any mistakes, I hope you will correct me. I want the threads in this series to be as good, and as accurate, as they can be, not just as good as I can make them alone.

    The number of allowed spins in a free dance used to be two. One had to be a Spin, and the other had to be a Combination Spin. The Short Dance also had a required Spin until the 2009-2010 season.

    Nowadays, a free dance has only one spin that counts, and that can be either a Combination Spin or a Spin. Both the free dance and the short dance have an allowed transitional spin that is not scored, these days.

    The first thing is to become clear about the difference between a Combination Spin and a Spin and a Transitional Spin.

    A Spin is defined as:

    A spin skated by the Couple together in any hold. It should be performed on the spot around a
    common axis on one foot by each partner simultaneously.
    A Combination Spin is:

    A Spin after which one change of foot is made by both partners simultaneously and further
    rotations occur
    So both Combination Spins and Spins may look similar, and may involve the couple breaking out and pulling back into a spin in the opposite direction of rotation. Both types of Spin may involve changes of position. The one thing that makes a Combination Spin different from a Spin is that in a Combination Spin, a change of foot by both partners at the same time has to happen somewhere in the middle of the spin.

    and a Transitional Spin is defined as:

    Permitted Dance Spin performed optionally after the required Dance Spin.
    A Transitional Spin could be either a Spin or a Combination Spin. What's important to note about it is that the first spin done is the one that counts in a Free Dance. Any second spin is Transitional and doesn't count.

    A third spin is an illegal element, and a two point deduction would be taken for performing one.

    There are three positions in spins that the ISU rules reference (Rule 604), and the definition for how to tell whether the requirements for the positions have been achieved are in ISU Communication 1677:

    The Three Basic Positions


    The Sit Position

    Performed on one foot with skating leg bent in a one-legged crouch position and free leg forward,
    to the side or back.
    A Sit Position cannot be considered a Sit Position unless:
    If the angle between the thigh and shin of the skating leg is less than about 120 degrees, the
    position shall be considered as a Sit Position.
    Now, if the position is not a Sit Position, there are two other options:

    If the angle between the thigh and shin of the skating leg is more than about 120 degrees, the
    position shall be considered as an Upright or Camel Position depending on the other criteria that
    characterize these positions.
    The definition and criteria for the Camel Position are:

    Definitions:
    Performed on one foot with skating leg straight or slightly bent and body bent forward and free leg
    extended or bent upward on a horizontal line or higher.
    and the criteria given:

    If the waist line is not horizontal and/or the core of the body is more than 45 degrees above the
    horizontal line the position shall be considered as an Upright Position. If the angle between the
    thigh and shin of the skating leg is less than about 120 degrees, the position shall be considered
    as a Sit Position.
    So to be a Camel Position, the waist line must be horizontal and/or the core of the body is less than or equal to 45 degrees above the horizontal line, and the angle between the thigh and shin of the skating leg must be more than about 120 degrees.

    The remaining position is the Upright Postion, defined as:

    Performed on one foot with skating leg straight or slightly bent and upper body upright (on a nearly
    vertical axis), arched back or bent to the side.
    and the position is considered Upright if it is not technically a Sit or a Camel.

    Note, however, that all three positions require the skaters to be on One Foot. Two Foot pair spins are neither Combination Spins or Spins.

    The reason these definitions are important are that a team could think they have done all three positions, but if the conditions are not met for Camel and Sit, they would have done just the Upright Position, and the spin would count less.

    In Spins and Combination Spins, as in Lifts, there are Examples of Difficult Positions given:

    For the Upright Position:

    a) “Biellmann” type – body upright with the heel of the boot pulled by the hand behind and above
    the level of the head;

    b) Full layback with upper body arched back towards the ice or sideways with upper body bent to
    the side towards the ice;

    c) Split with both legs straight and the boot/skate of the free leg held up higher than the head
    (may be supported by partner);

    d) Upper body arched back or sideways with free foot almost touching the head in a full circle
    (doughnut/ring: maximum of half a blade length between head and blade).
    Examples of Difficult Postions for the Sit Position

    a) Free leg bent or straight directed forward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;

    b) Free leg bent or straight directed backward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;

    c) Free leg bent or straight directed to the side with not more than 90 degrees between thigh and shin of skating leg;

    d) Free leg crossed extended behind, and directed to the side, with not more than 90 degrees between thigh and shin of skating leg;

    e) Free leg crossed behind and touching the skating leg, with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;

    f) Free leg directed forward, with not more than 90 degrees between thigh and shin of skating leg, and back of upper body parallel to the ice.

    Note:
    * Examples b) and e) executed right after each other shall be considered as the same Difficult Variation of Sit Position.
    and lastly Examples of Difficult Positions for the Camel Position:

    a) Upper body (shoulder and head) turned upwards – facing up so that the line of the shoulders is at least 45 degrees past the vertical point;

    b) Body nearly horizontal or bent sideways horizontally with head and free foot almost touching (doughnut/ring: maximum of half a blade length between head and blade);

    c) Body nearly horizontal with the heel of the boot pulled by the hand above the level of the head;

    d) Body bent forward to the spinning leg and free leg extended backward and upward up to almost a full split (with the angle between thighs about 180 degrees);

    e) Simple Camel Position by the man with the free leg on horizontal line or higher.

    Note:
    * Simple camel spin by the lady shall not be considered as a Difficult Variation of Camel Position
    Finally, in definitions there are some clarifications about when a difficult variation has or has not occurred:

    *The examples cited as d) for Upright Position and b) for Camel Position (doughnut/ring) shall be considered as the same Difficult Variation

    *The examples a) for Upright Position (Biellmann) and c) for Camel Position (heel of the boot pulled by the hand above the level of the head) shall be considered as the same Difficult Variation when performed by the same partner but as two different Difficult Variations when performed by different partners.

    *Rotations shall be taken into consideration for the purpose of total number of rotations when
    performed fully, continuously, on one foot and simultaneously by both partners.

    *Rotations in Difficult Variation shall be taken into consideration for the purpose of Level when
    performed continuously in a fully established position

    Now we can move straight ahead to looking at how the Level of Spins are determined. Don't worry too much about what the "Difficult Positions" mean. When an example is given, I'll cite the appropriate difficult level:


    DETERMINING THE LEVEL OF SPINS (AS OPPOSED TO COMBINATION SPINS)

    In general, there are two Spin Options:

    OPTION ONE
    Without change of spinning direction
    OPTION TWO
    With simultaneous change of spinning direction for both partners
    So we will deal with SPINS first as opposed to Combination Spins:


    LEVEL ONE

    At least 3 rotations
    Less than 3 rotations, and the spin garners no points at all.

    LEVEL TWO

    Option 1: (No change of direction of rotation)

    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    Option 2 With change of direction of rotation

    At least 2 rotations in each direction

    AND

    One Difficult Variation from any Basic Position by one partner:
    Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    LEVEL THREE

    OPTION 1 (No change of direction of rotation)

    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner performed simultaneously):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 5 rotations.

    OR

    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    OPTION 2 ( A Change of Direction of Spin is required)


    At least 2 rotations in each direction

    AND

    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (2 by same partner or 1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations
    and finally,

    LEVEL FOUR

    OPTION 1 (no change of direction of spin)



    4 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (2 by both partners or 3 by one partner and 1 by the other partner, at least 1 Difficult Variation being performed by partners simultaneously): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    OR

    OPTION 2 (with a change of direction)


    At least 2 rotations in each direction.

    AND

    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    And as with lifts, there are some changes that can be made to levels for various problems a team might have. Some are what you'd expect-lifting the partner off the ice during the spin is bad, spinning on 2 feet is bad, and losing your hold on your partner is bad:


    ADJUSTMENTS TO LEVELS

    1. If the spinning movement has been started and one or both partners is/are still on two feet after half a rotation, the Level
    shall be reduced by one Level if one partner starts on two feet and by two Levels if both partners start on two feet.

    2. If a loss of control occurs after the Dance Spin has commenced, resulting in one of the following mistakes:

    �� additional support (touch down by free leg/foot and/or hand(s) by one partner,

    �� one partner off the ice without sustaining action,

    �� both partners not holding on to each other, for up to half a rotation, and the Dance Spin continues according to Dance Spin requirements after the mistake, the Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per mistake. But if the mistake lasts for more than half a rotation, this shall be considered as an interruption and additional principles of calling shall apply.

    Notes:

    �� this provision does not apply to staying on two feet during the change of foot in a Combination Spin. However, the
    Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per partner staying on two feet more than half a rotation;

    �� this provision does not apply to one partner off the ice with a sustaining action which qualifies this move as a
    Dance Lift.

    3. If one or both partners do not change foot (to the other foot) in a Combination Spin, it will be identified as Spin Level 1.
    For spins, you'll find when a team loses a level that either one or more of the positions was disallowed, or that a postions was not held for the required number of rotations, or that one of these adjustments was required.

    Now we'll look at some Dance Spins that were done as planned. Combination Spins will not be included.

    If you have any questions, please ask, and I'll try to find out the answer.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-29-2012 at 05:29 AM.

  3. #3
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I've got to admit, I'm finding spins trickier to analyze than lifts, so I'm going to start with spins that were done as planned. Perhaps after I've looked at enough of them, I'll be better at detecting why some were downgraded.

    The base score for both Spins and Combination Spins is 5.0 points. 0.5 = 1 GOE point, so the maximum score possible from a Level 4 spin would be 6.5, and the minimum possible score would be 3.5. One GOE point for a single judge is +/-0.071 points.

    Most couples do a Combination Spin, including Virtue and Moir and Pechalat and Bourzat. So we won't be talking about their spins till we finish with Spins. Below are examples of Dance Spins by all the couples on the Senior Grand Prix, at Four Continents, and Worlds, and a few from the ranks of the Juniors.

    Let's start with the highest scoring Spin of the season, Davis & White's Spin at World Team Trophy.:

    Davis & White USA, in their Die Fledermaus FD, get a Level 4 via Option 1. The entire spin is counter clockwise. They get points for 3 Difficult positions from Charlie, and one from Meryl. They are required to have both partners doing a difficult position at the same time at least once:

    I'll remind you of the rule:

    LEVEL FOUR

    OPTION 1 (no change of direction of spin)

    4 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (2 by both partners or 3 by one partner and 1 by the other partner, at least 1 Difficult Variation being performed by partners simultaneously): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.

    Here's Meryl & Charlie's Dance Spin from the World Team Trophy, for which they received a Level 4 and a score of 6.19.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HgYA...ailpage#t=102s

    Note how the spin is seamlessly integrated into the dance steps. Note the really difficult back entry, and the good centering. These are all fine things, but none of them will change the level of their spin. They only affect GOE.

    The whole spin is counter clockwise. From a back entry, they execute 3 rotations in camel positions by both partners,

    They get credit for one Difficult variation by Charlie:

    e) Simple Camel Position by the man with the free leg on horizontal line or higher.
    Meryl does not get credit for her position, because it is considered easy for the lady to have a proper camel position.

    They follow by 3 rotations with Meryl in a front attitude position, Charlie in a sit with his leg forward and parallel to the ice for 3 rotations.

    They get credit for Charlie's sit position:

    a) Free leg bent or straight directed forward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;
    Meryl's forward upright attitude position, while pretty, is not considered difficult.


    They separate and pull back in, and continue rotating counter clockwise.

    Meryl is in a layback and Charlie in a one foot crouch of sorts for 3 more rotations(a sit variant)
    They get credit for Meryl's upright position in a layback

    b) Full layback with upper body arched back towards the ice or sideways with upper body bent to
    the side towards the ice;
    And for Charlie's sit position:
    e) Free leg crossed behind and touching the skating leg, with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;
    So taking a look at the definition for level 4,
    4 Difficult variations (check)
    The last 3 rotations has them each doing a difficult variation together (check)
    All difficult positions are held for 2 rotations or more (check)

    They get level four.

    Now let's look at a team that got 5.14 for the following dance spin, Zhiganshina & Gaszi GER, in their modern Romeo & Juliet routine at Worlds:

    Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...mMRDGqE#t=130s

    The first thing to determine is whether all parts of the spin are in the same direction: They are, counterclockwise.

    Secondly, count how many total rotations in each group of turns. At Worlds, they rotated 6 rotations in the first part, and 4 rotations in the second part.

    Third check what difficult positions are involved, who they are done by, and be sure that they are held for at least 2 rotations each:

    This is an attempt at Level 4, Option 1, with each partner doing 2 Difficult Positions

    OPTION 1 (no change of direction of spin)

    4 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (2 by both partners or 3 by one partner and 1 by the other partner, at least 1 Difficult Variation being performed by partners simultaneously): each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    In the first part of the spin, Alexander is in a Sit position with his free leg extended forward, or maybe a little to the side.
    a) Free leg bent or straight directed forward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;
    Yes, his thigh is parallel to the ice.

    Nelli is in a Upright split position.
    c) Split with both legs straight and the boot/skate of the free leg held up higher than the head
    (may be supported by partner);
    Nelli's position is much better than that!


    Then in the second part of the spin, note that they are allowed to pull out of the spin and recommence spinning in the direction they spun previously:

    Alexander is in a proper Camel position, with his leg horizontal or higher:

    e) Simple Camel Position by the man with the free leg on horizontal line or higher.

    Note:
    * Simple camel spin by the lady shall not be considered as a Difficult Variation of Camel Position

    and Nelli is in a crouched Sit Position with her free leg bent and extended to the back.

    b) Free leg bent or straight directed backward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;
    I think this is the right description, but several of the descriptions are rather similar, but her leg is maybe a bit crossed.

    In any case, they received Level 4.

  4. #4
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    Wow, Doris, you have put huge effort into this. It is most difficult for fans to judge ice dance. It is so complicated. Thank you for your efforts.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Hubbell & Donohue USA earned a level 4 and a score of 5.64 at Four Continents with this spin. They also earned level 4 at Skate America and Worlds. This spin makes it clear to me that I did not wholly understand the concept of " Four Difficult Variations from Three Different Basic Positions" called for in the rules:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um6hz...tailpage#t=93s

    In the first part, Madison does a Biellmann, and Zachary uses the forward leg extended sit spin. In the next section, Zachary is doing one of those crouching sit spins, with his leg crossed behind. Since Madison's skating thigh is not parallel to the ice, her position should be classed as an upright spin. In the last part of the spin, Madison does a layback spin, another upright variation. There are clearly four Difficult Variations, but no Camel Position.

    There is no camel in there. I was at first very confused.

    They don't reverse direction, so they are definitely doing option 1. In fact, all the teams doing Spins (rather than Combination Spins), did the entire spin was in one rotational direction.

    And they are not the only team getting credit for Level 4 without doing a camel spin:

    Shtork & Rand EST earned 5.43 and level 4 for this spin at Jr. Worlds, in their free dance to "The Story of Mikhail Strogoff (soundtrack)." The also earned Level 4 in at least 2 other competitions.

    Here's their spin at Jr Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7_Wz...tailpage#t=43s


    They start with Irina in a Biellman and Taavi in a forward leg extended sit spin, they do upright spins together with Irina in a layback, then they reposition to Irina in an upright split.

    And O'Brien and Merriman AUS, in their "In the Mood" Free dance, also get credit for a level 4, and scored 5.14, without doing a Camel Position:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5JfM...ailpage#t=110s

    Danielle does a back leg extended sit spin while Gregory does a front leg extended sit spin, Nicole goes to an upright positions, where she does a Biellman, and then a layback.

    A rereading of the requirements for Level 4 in this year's handbook for the technical panel did not help me, but ISU Communication 1610 (last year's documents) sheds some light, because it has a parenthetical explanation that this year's documentation lacks:

    OPTION 1
    At least 4 different difficult variations from 3 different types of Basic Positions (2 for both partners or 3 difficult variations in
    at least 2 different types of Basic Positions for one partner and 1 for the other partner
    ). At least one difficult variation must be performed by partners simultaneously - (each difficult variation for at least 2 rotations in a fully established position).
    Apparently, "from" means "selected from," since the clarification says "at least 2 different types of Basic Positions for one partner and 1 for the other partner." Consequently, only two Basic Positions are really required to be used in a Spin, provided there are four Difficult Variations.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-29-2012 at 11:43 AM.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I'm still not the greatest at figuring out why downgraded spins have been downgraded.

    And there's another issue: sometimes Combination Spins are downgraded to Spins. Consequently, I'm going to put off talking about Spin downgrades until after I do GOE for Spins, and do Combination Spin Levels. Then I'll discuss all the downgrades at once at the end.

    Hopefully, I'll be better at them by then.

    In any case, here's what I know about GOE for spins, as described in ISU Communication 1677, ISU Judging System Handbook for Referees and Judges:

    GRADE OF EXECUTION OF ALL DANCE SPINS:

    Entry/exit

    Minus 3 (very poor) awkward/step out

    Minus 2 ((poor) uncoordinated/off balance

    Minus 1 (mediocre) hesitant/abrupt

    Zero (average) controlled

    Plus 1 (good) smooth

    Plus 2 (superior) fluid/with ease

    Plus 3 (excellent) fluid/seamless
    Move onto one foot

    Minus 3 (very poor) delayed

    Minus 2 (poor) slow

    Minus 1 (mediocre) not together

    Zero (average) simultaneous

    Plus 1 (good) prompt

    Plus 2 (superior) quick/smooth

    Plus 3 (excellent) immediate

    Rotation

    Minus 3 (very poor) delayed

    Minus 2 (poor) very slow

    Minus 1 (mediocre) deteriorates

    Zero (average) stable

    Plus 1 (good) sustained

    Plus 2 (superior) fast with ease

    Plus 3 (excellent) very fast, flawless
    Change of Pose, if any

    Minus 3 (very poor) awkward

    Minus 2 (poor) uncoordinated/slow transition

    Minus 1 (mediocre) labored

    Zero (average) controlled

    Plus 1 (good) brief, by both, distinct

    Plus 2 (superior) brief and smooth

    Plus 3 (excellent) seamless
    Change of foot (only in combination spins)

    Minus 3 (very poor) extra push by both partners

    Minus 2 (poor) extra push by one partner

    Minus 1 (mediocre) hesitant

    Zero (average) controlled

    Plus 1 (good) controlled and quick

    Plus 2 (superior) quick, with ease

    Plus 3 (excellent) very fast, seamless
    After a judge has figured out what the GOE should be for a skill, by adding up the pluses and minuses above, they can adjust that GOE up or down for the following situations:


    DANCE SPIN ADJUSTMENTS TO LEVEL of GOE

    Reductions:

    Not on spot (travelling):
    *In one part of Combination Spin or one direction of Spin Option 2, Reduce by 1 Level

    *In Spin Option 1, both parts of Combination Spin or both directions of Spin Option 2, Reduce by 1 Level


    Pose awkward or not aesthetically pleasing, Reduce by 1 grade

    Dance Spin does not fit to the phrasing of the music. Reduce by 1 grade.

    Spin re-centers completely except Dance Spin with different directions of rotation (Option 2), Reduce by one grade.

    Change of feet not simultaneous (Combination Spin), Reduce by 1 grade.

    Increase by:
    Body lines and pose of both partners beautiful and aesthetically pleasing. Incread by 1 grade

    Speed of rotation maintained or accelerated during the Dance Spin. Increase by 1 grade.

    Entry is unexpected and/or creative. Increase by 1 grade.

    Dance Spin fits to the phrasing of the music. Increase by 1 grade
    That's it for the GOE rules for Dance Spins, and for Combination Spins.


    So do you agree with the following order of ranking for what was a good spin and what was a bad spin?

    All of the following are SP4 dance spins. For one thing, it's clear that different judging panels grade quite a bit differently from each other.

    I tend to believe that judging panels for Junior events are rather more forgiving than for senior events.

    It's interesting to note that the Spin is most popular with teams coached by Zueva & Shpilband than with any other coaching groups. Davis and White, Shibutani & Shibutani, Tobias and Stagniunas and Lichtman & Copley all did Spins last year.

    The king and queen of the dance spin are clearly Davis & White (again, remembering that Pechalat & Bourzat, Virtue and Moir, Weaver & Poje, Bobrova & Soloviev, and Ilinykh and Katsapalov have not done a combination spin in the last two years.)

    One thing that they had going for them this year was the obviously difficult (and unique, because no one else is doing it) entry to their spin. If you refer to the above "adjustments,", they would be getting an adjustment of plus one from me for that entry, because it is really hard to get the torque to spin at all, let alone that fast, just from the pressure of the blade on the ice, and the action of getting into a camel position. They are doing no tricks with the arms or using the moment of inertia about a common center point that you get when two people stroke towards each other from opposite directions at the same speed while holding hands. Managing that with just the blade is really impressive. I could even see an additional plus one adjustment for the speed of rotation:

    Their speed is certainly maintained throughout what is a long dance spin, and is faster at the end than the beginning, since the rotational moment of inertia is higher for a pair camel spin than for the other two sections of the spin.

    It's no wonder that quite a few judges gave them a plus 3 for their Spins this year. I would have:



    Davis & White USA at the 2011 GPF in their Die Fledermaus FD earned Level 4 and a score of 6.14:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvF5b...ailpage#t=116s

    Davis & White USA at the 2011 Cup of Russia, they earned 6.07
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...ailpage#t=129s

    The overhead camera view shows centering vis a vis the writing on the ice very well.

    Davis & White 2011 at Skate America earned 6.00
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm31D...tailpage#t=94s

    Davis & White USA at 2012 Worlds also earned 6.00
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-HVY...ailpage#t=107s

    Their centering is exquisite about the C in Championship, particularly given that they pull out and in twice, centering in the same spot each time. Of the four samples, I like this one best, actually. Also, their phrasing and arm and head movements were excellent here. The panel at Worlds was not hugely generous, IMO.


    Shibutani & Shibutani USA 2011 GPF In the Mood FD, received SP4 and a score of 5.79
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zov69...ailpage#t=110s

    The judging panel at the GPF was very generous, but it must be said that their spin matches the music very nicely.


    Shtork & Rand EST at the 2011 Tallinn JGP received for the spin in their "The Story of Mikhail Strogoff (soundtrack" FD received a Level 4 and a score of 5.79
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yJju...tailpage#t=22s

    They start with Irina in a Biellman and Taavi in a forward leg extended sit spin, they do upright spins together with Irina in a layback, and reposition to Irina in an upright split.


    Hubbell & Donohue USA 2012 Four Continents FD "I Put a Spell on You," earned a level 4 and a score of 5.64
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um6hz...tailpage#t=93s

    Perhaps they have a little slower rotational speed in the second section. I really like Madison's upright position with her leg extended forward.

    Carron & Jones FRA at 2011 Cup of China, FD Jazz Night, also received an SP4 and a 5.64
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...QuNYtjA#t=180s

    3 Difficult positions on the first set-He is in a forward sit, followed by a crouched sit, she's in one of those upfacing camels, then she does a layback in the next set. The speed of rotation is particularly nice. The positions could be a hair prettier.

    Orford & Williams CAN, at Jr Worlds 2012 Gone With the Wind FD, earned a Level 4 and a score of 5.5
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6-2...ailpage#t=109s

    Nicole is using a aomewhat upward facing camel position-this is required to get credit for the Difficult position. She does it particularly well. However, the center on the second part of the spin has definitely moved.

    Shibutani & Shibutani USA at NHK 2011, "In the Mood FD," received SP4 and a score of 5.43
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywvdf...tailpage#t=73s

    I can see this as definitely a little worse than their GPF spin. The rotation on the second part of the spin is noticeably a little slower, and the movement out and back into the spin is not all that smooth.

    Shtork & Rand EST 2012 Jr Worlds for "The Story of Mikhail Strogoff (soundtrack" FD received SP4 and a score of 5.43
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7_Wz...tailpage#t=43s

    And Irina & Tavi's spin is definitely not as good as their spin at Tallinn-there is some travelling of the center of the spin, and the rotations are less uniform and slower here than at Tallinn.

    Kriengkrairut & Giuletti-Schmitt USA at 2011 NHK "Walking in the Sand" FD received SP4 and a score of 5.29
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P-JS...ailpage#t=234s

    She has a nice turned up camel position. The fact that they are spinning in a very slow bluesy part of their music has made it impossible for them to both spin to the music and spin fast.

    Here is a dance spin where you can actually identify what the team's music was about; however it did not get great GOE:

    Ralph & Hill, CAN, received Level 4 for their Spin at 2012 Worlds for their Tango FD, and a score of 5.21
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u59l...ailpage#t=186s

    I really like this spin conceptually. It's too bad that they don't maintain as much speed as I would like at the end of second half of the spin. Perhaps the use of a tango-appearing armhold during the second half hinders spinning, and increases their rotational moment of inertia a bit, causing the spin to slow: taking a risk for the art of it. I could have seen this spin score a bit higher.

    Zhiganshina & Gaszi GER Romeo & Juliet (modern) at Worlds 2012 earned an Sp4 and a score 5.14
    Several judges gave them a negative GOE.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...mMRDGqE#t=130s

    I find his upright position in the first part of the spin a little awkward (a key item for reducing GOE), and they do not transition smoothly at all between the two parts of the spin, another GOE issue.

    O'Brien and Merriman AUS, in their In the Mood Free dance, get credit for a level 4, and also scored 5.14
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5JfM...ailpage#t=110s

    Danielle does a back leg extended sit spin while Gregory does a front leg extended sit spin, Nicole goes to an upright positions, where she does a Biellman, and then a layback. I would definitely have scored this spin a little higher, if only for the smoothness of their transitions. They may have suffered a bit because this skill is markedly better than most of their elements. That shouldn't happen under the IJS, but it still does.

    And lastly, to the two spins that managed to be level 4, but scored lowest:

    Sforza & Fioretti ITA at World Junior Championships 2012 in their Carmen FD received a level 4 scored 5.0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCBKs...ailpage#t=152s

    Nice sit with the back leg extension by Sofia, at least. However, the second half of the spin really suffered, and the effort to start the last half of the spin was really labored.

    Tobias & Stagniunas EST Worlds 2012 FD The Twist received Sp4 and a score of 5.0 (5.14 at Europeans)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuibO...ailpage#t=120s

    I can definitely see this spin as the worst of the bunch. Her position in the Biellman isn't very good, and the speed of rotation noticeably slows down at the end.

    So that's it for Spins for a while, and we'll move on to Combination Spins.

    So now that you've watched all these spins, in order of decreasing scores, do you disagree with any of them? And if so, why?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-31-2012 at 07:31 PM.

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    Doris, you are an example to all of us. Who else would have taken on this amount of research? Ralph and Hill's arm position may have slowed them down, it was just one of the fresh ideas that I loved in that dance, but it was new for worlds. The rest of the season, her arms were clasped around his neck.

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    Here's my guess as to why those three still had level 4 spins, may be their "biellman" is being graded as a camel. The argument could be made that the lady's core is about 45 degrees above the horizontal line. If that is true then the fact that they all have their boots above the level of their head = difficult position.

    Definition of Camel Position: Performed on one foot with skating leg straight or slightly bent and body bent forward and free leg
    extended or bent upward on a horizontal line or higher.
    and the criteria given:
    If the waist line is not horizontal and/or the core of the body is more than 45 degrees above the horizontal line the position shall be considered as an Upright Position. If the angle between the thigh and shin of the skating leg is less than about 120 degrees, the position shall be considered as a Sit Position.

    So to be a Camel Position, the waist line must be horizontal and/or the core of the body is less than or equal to 45 degrees above the horizontal line, and the angle between the thigh and shin of the skating leg must be more than about 120 degrees.
    Examples of Difficult Positions for the Camel Position:
    a) Upper body (shoulder and head) turned upwards – facing up so that the line of the shoulders is at least 45 degrees past the vertical point;
    b) Body nearly horizontal or bent sideways horizontally with head and free foot almost touching (doughnut/ring: maximum of half a blade length between head and blade)
    c) Body nearly horizontal with the heel of the boot pulled by the hand above the level of the head
    d) Body bent forward to the spinning leg and free leg extended backward and upward up to almost a full split (with the angle between thighs about 180 degrees);
    e) Simple Camel Position by the man with the free leg on horizontal line or higher.
    Note:
    * Simple camel spin by the lady shall not be considered as a Difficult Variation of Camel Position

  9. #9
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I think you could grade Danielle Merriman's Biellmann as a camel. Her body is nearly horizontal.

    However that still leaves Hubbell & Donohue and Shtork & Rand to be explained, because in no way are Shtork's or Hubbell's bodies horizontal, and they look like normal Biellmanns to me.

    I did refer back to ISU Communication 1677, and the language for what is a level 4 spin was not changed, according to it (they underline the changes from the previous document).

    I have not forgotten this thread, BTW, and I will finish it. Life is crazy right now.

  10. #10
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Rules for Combination Spins

    The basic options are the same as for Spins.

    COMBINATION SPIN LEVELS (Sources ISU Communication 1677 and 1686)

    Options of Dance Spins:
    �� Combination Spin Option 1: with same spinning direction for both parts;
    �� Combination Spin Option 2: with different spinning direction for each part.
    The levels are approximately the same too.

    Level one is the most different from Spins, as it requires 6 rotations; however a blown spin after the first 3 rotations would be graded as an SP1, so the risk is the same for both types of spin. I'm guessing that couples use the Combination Spin more frequently because they get an extra push between the two parts of the spin to keep things going.

    LEVEL ONE

    At least 3 rotations in both parts

    LEVEL TWO

    OPTION 1
    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (2 by same partner or 1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations

    OR

    OPTION 2
    1 Difficult Variation from any Basic Position: each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations
    LEVEL THREE

    OPTION 1
    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 for the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations

    OR

    OPTION 2
    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (2 by same partner or 1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations

    LEVEL 4

    OPTION 1
    4 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (2 by both partners or 3 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations

    OR

    OPTION 2
    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations
    In fact, if you're not looking for the change of foot, Combination Spins to the untrained eye look just like Spins.

    The adjustments are the same too, more or less:


    ADJUSTMENTS TO TECHNICAL LEVEL

    1. If the spinning movement has been started and one or both partners is/are still on two feet after half a rotation, the Level shall be reduced by one Level if one partner starts on two feet and by two Levels if both partners start on two feet.

    2. If a loss of control occurs after the Dance Spin has commenced, resulting in one of the following mistakes:

    �� additional support (touch down by free leg/foot and/or hand(s) by one partner,
    �� one partner off the ice without sustaining action,
    �� both partners not holding, for up to half a rotation, and the Dance Spin continues according to Dance Spin requirements after the mistake, the Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per mistake. But if the mistake lasts for more than half a rotation, this shall be considered as an interruption and additional principles of calling shall apply.

    Notes:
    �� this provision does not apply to staying on two feet during the change of foot in a Combination Spin. However, the Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per partner staying on two feet more than half a rotation;

    �� this provision does not apply to one partner off the ice with a sustaining action which qualifies this move as a Dance Lift.

    3. If one or both partners do not change foot (to the other foot) in a Combination Spin, it will be identified as Spin Level 1.


    So let's look at some Combination Spins. These are listed in order of score. GOE rules are approximately the same as for Spins; I have bolded the differences.

    Just to refresh your memory, here's the GOE rules:

    GRADE OF EXECUTION OF SPINS:
    Entry/exit
    Minus 3 (very poor) awkward/step out

    Minus 2 ((poor) uncoordinated/off balance

    Minus 1 (mediocre) hesitant/abrupt

    Zero (average) controlled

    Plus 1 (good) smooth

    Plus 2 (superior) fluid/with ease

    Plus 3 (excellent) fluid/seamless

    Move onto one foot
    Minus 3 (very poor) delayed

    Minus 2 (poor) slow

    Minus 1 (mediocre) not together

    Zero (average) simultaneous

    Plus 1 (good) prompt

    Plus 2 (superior) quick/smooth

    Plus 3 (excellent) immediate

    Rotation

    Minus 3 (very poor) delayed

    Minus 2 (poor) very slow

    Minus 1 (mediocre) deteriorates

    Zero (average) stable

    Plus 1 (good) sustained

    Plus 2 (superior) fast with ease

    Plus 3 (excellent) veyr fast flawless
    Change of pose (if any)

    Minus 3 (very poor) awkward

    Minus 2 (poor) uncoordinated/slow transition

    Minus 1 (mediocre) labored

    Zero (average) controlled

    Plus 1 (good) brief, by both, distinct

    Plus 2 (superior) brief and smooth

    Plus 3 (excellent) seamless
    Change of foot (only in combination spins)

    Minus 3 (very poor) extra push by both partners

    Minus 2 (poor) extra push by one partner

    Minus 1 (mediocre) hesitant

    Zero (average) controlled

    Plus 1 (good) controlled and quick

    Plus 2 (superior) quick, with ease

    Plus 3 (excellent) very fast, seamless



    DANCE SPIN ADJUSTMENTS TO LEVEL of GOE

    Not on spot (travelling):
    *In one part of Combination Spin or one direction of Spin Option 2, Reduce by 1 Level

    *In Spin Option 1, both parts of Combination Spin or both directions of Spin Option 2, Reduce by 1 Level



    Pose awkward or not aesthetically pleasing, Reduce by 1 grade

    Dance Spin does not fit to the phrasing of the music. Reduce by 1 grade.

    Spin re-centers completely except Dance Spin with different directions of rotation (Option 2), Reduce by one grade.

    Change of feet not simultaneous (Combination Spin), Reduce by 1 grade.

    Increase by:
    Body lines and pose of both partners beautiful and aesthetically pleasing. Incread by 1 grade

    Speed of rotation maintained or accelerated during the Dance Spin. Increase by 1 grade.

    Entry is unexpected and/or creative. Increase by 1 grade.

    Dance Spin fits to the phrasing of the music. Increase by 1 grade


    Virtue & Moir had the best Combination Spins this year.:

    COMBINATION SPINS LISTED IN ORDER OF GOE


    Virtue & Moir CAN 2012 4CC 6.0
    Funny Face FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLpqR...ailpage#t=131s

    Virtue & Moir CAN 2011 TEB 6.0
    Funny Face FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...laXXsl0#t=144s

    Virtue & Moir CAN 2011 GPF 6.0
    Funny Face FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJXhE...ailpage#t=138s

    Their centering drifted a bit.

    Virtue & Moir CAN 2012 Worlds CoSp4 5.93
    Funny Face FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwbgR...ailpage#t=138s

    Virtue & Moir CAN 2012 WTT 5.93
    Funny Face FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUHR9...ailpage#t=142s

    Centering drifts, and power in the second part of the spin is a bit weak

    Virtue & Moir CAN 2011 Skate Canada 5.92
    Funny Face FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0exi...ailpage#t=141s

    second part slows down


    Weaver & Poje CAN 2012 4CCs Je Suis Malade 6.0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCxoV...ailpage#t=100s

    The way the spin is integrated into the choreography is exceptional.

    Chock & Bates USA 2011 Skate Canada 5.92
    Modern Chopin FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq5Iv...ailpage#t=225s

    I really like the clarity of their positions. I don't have to stare to figure out whether her body is horizontal or whether his skating leg in the sit is really at least parallell to the ice.

    and they have an exquisite stationary lift done as a throwaway at the end of the program.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq5Iv...ailpage#t=258s

    Bonacorsi & Mager USA 2011 JGP Brisbane 5.90
    Close to You FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH5AB...ailpage#t=102s

    Good centering, good speed.

    Pechalat & Bourzat FRA 2012 Worlds 5.86
    Pharoah & His Mummy FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMRwI...ailpage#t=226s

    They do a great job of keeping "Egyptian Hands" during the spin. The film angle isn't great.


    Bobrova & Soloviev RUS 2012 Worlds 5.86
    Faust FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65wBM...ailpage#t=175s

    I like the speed in the part of the spin where Bobrova is in the donut position and her smooth transition to the upright Biellmann.

    Sinitsina & Zhiganshin RUS 2011 JGPF 5.86
    Phantom of the Opera FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96WOk...ailpage#t=120s

    3 separate sections to this spin

    Zenkova & Sinitsin RUS 2011 JGP Brisbane 5.80
    Gayaneh by Aram Khatchaturian FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qcmww...tailpage#t=14s

    I like the way she circles around his pivot in the second half of the spin. I like the surprise that he does the camel, with his body horizontal, and his foot in a Biellmannesque position over his head. In fact, I'm a big fan of this spin by Z&S!

    Stepanova & Bukin RUS 5.79 2012 Jr Worlds 5.79
    Live & Let Die FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWS2B...tailpage#t=70s

    Riazanova & Tkachenko RUS 2012 Worlds 5.71
    The Snowstorm by Sviridov FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...4tIFdOaE#t=73s
    Some really nice positions in this

    Capellini & Lanotte ITA 2012 Europeans 5.64
    La Strada FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...m0VPX04#t=187s

    He tends to get up a little fast from the sit--check if that is what went wrong at Worlds for the downgrade

    Ilinykh & Katsalapov RUS 2012 Worlds 5.64
    Ave Maria FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9DeK...ailpage#t=249s
    Lots of complex junk going on, but the rotations run out of steam. I&K rather struggled with spins this season.

    Aldridge & Eaton USA 2012 Jr Worlds 5.57
    Lord of the Dance FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bMZX...ailpage#t=137s
    She should be lower in the sit, with her skating leg thigh parallel to the ice. I could see this getting a downgrade, frankly.

    Yanovskaia & Mozgov RUS 2012 Jr Worlds 5.57
    Mala Luna FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZxn5...ailpage#t=317s
    Lot of rotations; last one was interesting

    Zlobina & Sitnikov AZE 2012 Worlds 5.50
    Derap by Rene Aubry FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzH4D...ailpage#t=162s
    The first half center is a quite a ways from the second half center

    Papadakis & Cizeron FRA 2012 Jr Worlds 5.50
    Elvis Medley FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVPvU...ailpage#t=196s
    somewhat upward facing camel by Gabriella

    Paul & Islam CAN 2012 4ccs 5.50
    Tonight by Elton John FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paREI...ailpage#t=175s
    He keeps dragging his foot. I'd have it much lower, maybe downgraded

    Heekin-Canedy & Dun UKR 2012 Worlds CoSp4 5.43
    Notre Dame de Paris FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItE61...ailpage#t=135s
    nice unexpected entry

    Hurtado & Diaz ESP 2012 Worlds CoSp4 5.43
    Tristan & Isolde FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...vqHjwEM#t=123s
    There is some general crappiness about how they step onto the other foot. (and this is the one GOE item that applies to Combination Spins and not to Spins)

    Poulin & Servant CAN 2012 Jr Worlds CoSp4 5.36
    Tango FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXD5T...ailpage#t=100s
    They stop before the spin. Disastrous program; spin not too bad; some character


    Parsons & Parsons USA 2012 Jr Worlds CoSp4 5.29
    Enigmatic Soul; to Glory By FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...E89uc6U#t=134s
    Standard issue. Biellmann/sit to haircuter/upright, reverse to pair camel (slow)

    Huang & Zheng CHN 2012 Worlds CoSp4 5.07
    Libertango FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwZxb...ailpage#t=154s

    Rotation really dies at the end

    Koch & Nuchtern GER Jr Worlds CoSp4 5.0
    Big Spender, Fever, Can't Touch it FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...GS2YDFI#t=192s
    Change of direction

    Lichtman & Copley USA COC 5.0
    Austin Powers FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP_TE...ailpage#t=187s

    I like this better than the judges did. I like the clarity of their positions, and the fact that it fits the theme and music.

    They move well out of it. They do let go of their hands in the change, though.

    At least three spins this season managed to get level 4, but still score negative GOE:

    Walden & Edwards GBR 2012 Europeans 4.93
    Love Actually soundtrack bio
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_IXb...ailpage#t=144s
    Nice sit variation by Walden. They lost touch of hands between spin parts and separated a long way.
    Also his thigh is not parallel or even nearly parallel to the ice. Should this get level 4?

    Bruhns & Van Natten MEX 2012 4CCs 4.86
    Harlem Nocturne FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxz1Y...ailpage#t=214s
    All counter clockwise.

    Nagy & Fejes HUN 2012 Europeans 4.79
    Minnie the Moocher, Why Don't You Do Right, Pin Stripe Suit FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEvnx...ailpage#t=148s
    They reverse direction as well as changing foot.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 06-09-2012 at 05:55 AM.

  11. #11
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Now let's finally try to figure out why some spins were downgraded.

    I found this more difficult than lifts, and not just because I would be a little stickier about camels and sits. Some panels seemed to be too generous and others too tough.

    Ilinykh and Katsalapov hada lot of struggles with their combination spin this season, mostly because it was rather too difficult for them.

    Ilinykh & Katsalapov at the 2012 World Team Trophy earned only a Level One for their combination spin CoSp1 (Got -1 to +3 GOE for this)

    In order to get Level 1 only, Elena & Nikita had to have at least 3 rotations on each foot. To fail to get level 2, they had to either spin only in one direction and fail to have 2 Difficult Variations from two different positions that lasted 2 rotations or fail to have any of their difficult positions last for a full 3 rotations (Option2, if they rotated in both directions)

    Equivallently, they could have qualified for a higher level than 1, but had "adjustments"

    Let's see if we can figure out what happened
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jooK1...ailpage#t=197s

    In the first bit, Nikita only gets 2 1/2 rotations in the sit position with his skating leg thigh parallel to the ice. because he is slow to get down into it, and gets up a bit fast, so it doesn't do the trick.
    In the second bit, Elena takes a 1/2 rotation to get her foot over her head in the split, so that doesn't do the trick either.

    After the change of foot, we see that they are rotating counter clockwise throughout, so both of their difficult positions in this part must count for them to have any hope of level 2.

    It looks to me like Nikita's camel has 3 revolutions and might count. However, Elena's attempt at a camel would require her foot to get over head for 3 revolutions, and it doesn't. OK, Level 1 it is, I think.


    They also had 2 Level 2 attempts, at NHK & TEB:

    CoSp2 2011 NHK
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...KogdAiA#t=195s

    Again, he gets up too fast from the sit and she doesn't get into the split fast enough. He does at least 3 rotations in a camel, and she definitely gets a lot closer to having her foot over her head in her "camel" for 3 rotations. However, the change of foot is very awkward.


    CoSp2 2011 TEB
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...eFV6ZUg#t=210s

    Nikita definitely gets the camel and Elena gets her foot over the head camel, but Nikita's sit spin is particularly heinous.


    CoSp4 2012 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9DeK...ailpage#t=247s
    Lots of complex junk going on, but the rotations run out of steam, and honestly, this one does not look much better than the other 2 versions that only got level 2. This time Nikita does the sit and the camel OK, but Elena does do the split for 3 rotations or the camel with the foot over the head for 3 rotations. It's possible at the right angle, her foot might have looked like it was over her head. If so, Level 4 may be right.

    On the whole, the panels were rather generous with I&K: he comes perilously close to staying on 2 feet for half a rotation, which should net a deduction. And their change of foot is really not great (a GOE issue)

    Would you have agreed with the panels?

    I would not have given the Worlds version a particularly good GOE, however.

  12. #12
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I am working my way through all the downgraded spins, and although it is taking a while, I promise I will keep reporting on them.

    Sometimes, the choreography lends itself to the skaters incurring lost levels. Here are two cases:

    Charlene Guignard & Marco Fabbri ITA 2012 Europeans, for their Godfather FD, earned only a CoSp2 for this spin:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdWWO...ailpage#t=150s

    Really, this is entirely the fault of their choreographer, because the feature involved seems to have been intentional.

    They do more than 1 rotation on two feet at the beginning of the spin. A one level deduction needs to be take per skater:

    1. If the spinning movement has been started and one or both partners is/are still on two feet after half a rotation, the Level shall be reduced by one Level if one partner starts on two feet and by two Levels if both partners start on two feet.
    In another case, Anastasia Galyeta & Alexei Shumski's (UKR) spin is designed so that Galyeta delays getting into the hair cutter for musical emphasis. At the JGP and at Baltic Cup, she doesn't get in 3 rotations. At Brasov, she does get in three rotations, and they get the level 4. This choreographic choice was effective, but a bit risky for getting your level for the spin.

    Galyeta & Shumski UKR 2011 JGPF, in their Tchaikovski Remix by Edvin Marton FD earned CoSp3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPO9j...ailpage#t=125s

    Galyeta & Shumski UKR 2011 JGP baltic CoSp3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...SD0vQYs#t=128s

    Galyeta & Shumski UKR 2011 JGP Brasov CoSp4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Oaj...ailpage#t=128s

  13. #13
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Although the skaters have that opportunity to get a little extra zip in the second half of a combination spin (versus an ordinary dance spin), the combination spin has a risk that the plain Dance Spin does not. These two teams got no points for their combination spins.

    Blowing a Spin

    Lucie Mysliveckova & Neil Brown CZE 2012 Europeans FD Burlesque got zero points for this spin attempt in their FD to Sunset Boulevard and I'm Feeling Good:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KdwA...ailpage#t=200s

    Clearly, the second half of the spin should not count, between hands down and sitting on the ice. And they need three rotations in the second direction, as well as in the first direction, to get Level 1 for a Combination Spin. If they had not changed feet, the spin would have been graded on the basis of what they did in the first part of the spin, which would have been a Level 2.

    Olivia Smart & Joseph Buckland GBR had the exact same problem at 2011 JGP Austria, with the exact same result: no points. They started but couldn't finish 3 rotations in the second half of a spin.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...1ydE8kY#t=186s

    This problem was dealt with by one of the Questions and Answers in the Tech Manual

    Question: What happens if in a Combination Spin, both partners changed feet and commence the entry edge to the second part but 3 full rotations on one foot are not completed by one or both partners?

    Answer: The Technical Panel will identify a Combination Spin and will give No Level.

  14. #14
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It is not always the case that the man manages to get credit for the simple camel position. Here are two cases where he doesn't:


    Xiaoyang Yu & Chen Wang CHN CoSp2 at 4CC's in their Howl's Moving Castle FD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...NM_2kZA#t=147s

    This team from the USA has the same problem:

    Madeline Heritage & Nathaniel Fast USA CoSp2 at 2011 Jgp Brisbane in their Swing FD (Minnie the Moocher)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yejzh...tailpage#t=74s

    His camel is substandard, and they need all 3 positions to get level 3. (They have an upright layback, and two good sit variations).

    This combination spin is designed to be layback/camel and 2 sit spins. His camel really isn't horizontal enough to qualify.

    e) Simple Camel Position by the man with the free leg on horizontal line or higher.

    Since only 2 of the 3 basic positions are involved for these couples, and since they aren't doing 5 rotations in each position, they don't qualify for Level 3.
    Level 2 it is, for both of them.

  15. #15
    tripping on the toe pick
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    186
    Enlightening post. Thank you!

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