Daisuke Takahashi back to Nikolai Morozov

skfan said:

morozov's quotes surprise me. it reads like he's... how can i say this... figuratively bowing ... not to just dai but to the japanese skating world. sounds to me like someone seeking to make amends, ingratiate, or smooth things over with a very traditional asian counterpart. this is calculated towards the japanese media and public, IMO, unlike the morozov quotes i've read in the past.

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Yeah funny how big $$$ can change someone's attitude. I am sure Miki's WC bonus to her coach team awarded by JSF can't hurt either.

First Hanyu goes to Orser, then Daisuke goes to Morozov. More example of JSF and friends' attempt lobbying for an OGM while trying to 'kit' their top contenders with the 'name' team. Less to do with the quality of work on the ice than about establishing what looks good on paper. Easily exploiting IJS, who's judges are conditioned to study more on the past than judging what is right infront of them due to a default weakness of a human judging system and latency effect, with a scale of value that is entirely elementary and easily manipulated.

Who says money and politics can't buy winners? This sport and the tactics by its most successful federations and winners in the past 2 years at least proves it can, or certainly it wouldn't stop people blatantly trying. People who had been disillusioned with the sport before and think it is corrupted and fixed, things like this just makes it easier to believe so.

now we can begin to guess who'll be his choreographer……at least not Morozov or Lori this season,seems good news?

deedee1 said:

Thanks a lot, Blue. (I do not know what to tell you in return, in order to comfort you on this one, though.)

If both Patrick and Dai will not be able to get good results at the end of 2012-13 season, let's find someone to blame for it.

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I'm ready for that! Let's blame these off-season craziness on sunspot activity peak in 2012.

SkateFiguring said:

Icenetwork has a more detailed article on the subject.

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So Takahashi is having a second thought on choreographer for this coming season after listening to Morozov. Sounds like Morozov will do his choreograph in Olympic season, just like what I've thought.

I don't understand why so many people forgot all about Morozov's brilliantness in the past? Maybe Morozov and Takahashi could bring out the best for each other again. At least Takahashi thought so. Otherwise, he wouldn't have decided to go back to him.

let`s talk said:

I would go further. Dai is Russia's Plan B. In case if Plush injuries or can't get an OGM due to whatever reason, the Kremlin would rather deliver it to Morozov's favourite pupil than to a Chanadian. It was all planned.

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Good, so now I know if Chan won over Takahashi, Chan earned it. If Takahashi won over Chan, it will be the result of politicking and conspiracy. I like that!

Russia don't like Canada so they won't let they win?NO,in political way they have many thing to exchange.
Why they support Dai to win if Plushenko can't?Japanese figure skating federation doesn't have much power in skating world.but canada do.
Russian federation can support canada on male and ice dance and then canada support their female and pair,perfect,right?

I was actually very depressed on Takahashi working with Lori Nichol. I thought Nichol might bring out a nearly unbeatable Takahashi this coming season. This news of Takahashi isn't going to work with Nichol is a relief from my Patrick fan point of view. Now this coming season is everybody's game.

SkateFiguring said:

Icenetwork has a more detailed article on the subject.

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Thank you so much for letting me know about the article.
I went to IN and read the whole article. I feel much better/calmer for the first time since the breaking of this news. Thanks again, SkateFiguring.

Bluebonnet said:

I'm ready for that! Let's blame these off-season craziness on sunspot activity peak in 2012.

So Takahashi is having a second thought on choreographer for this coming season after listening to Morozov. Sounds like Morozov will do his choreograph in Olympic season, just like what I've thought.

I don't understand why so many people forgot all about Morozov's brilliantness in the past? Maybe Morozov and Takahashi could bring out the best for each other again. At least Takahashi thought so. Otherwise, he wouldn't have decided to go back to him.

Good, so now I know if Chan won over Takahashi, Chan earned it. If Takahashi won over Chan, it will be the result of politiking and conspiracy. I like that!

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I agree with everything above, in its context, except that I am not sure that Takahashi will let Morozov do the choreography. (Bluebonnet, you are usually right though and nothing surprises me anymore.) Takahashi always struck me as a skater very astute as to what works and what doesn't, and he is of unusually strong spine for a skater. That Morozov is not going to be his coach, but an adviser, suggests that Takahashi is still in the driver's seat and up to form. I give one to Takahashi for putting limits on Morozov. As well, knowing how well Takahashi can skate to the audience, I think if anyone does, he of all people knows that Morozov's choreography comes off as a little too (okay, perhaps a way too) cheesy. I can't believe that Takahashi would let that happen.

Another aspect of the coaching modification by Takahashi is that Takahashi's competitive skating career has to entering its sunset phase. Patrick Chan is young, and Yuzuru Hanyu is barely out of being a toddler. Dai knows that he has to work really hard over the next couple of years to be competitive with those two, but he does not have as much of a safety net for mistakes as do the kids (if either Hanyu or Chan have a bad year, as unlikely as that may be, both can bounce back for Sochi). If Takahashi has a bad year, it could be more devastating and possibly the end. I got the impression from Takahashi's interviews (his saying that if he didn't improve, Hanyu would be better than him), he is pulling out all the stops to do whatever it takes to end at the top of his own game and the sport as a whole.

I suspect that the real showdown over the next two years is going to be between Chan and Hanyu, and I think that a lot of other people suspect the same. Takahashi wants to and is determined to prove everyone wrong, and will take whatever he can get, even from Morozov, to do that. And he might because he is one tough competitor.

The other factor, as alluded so wisely by OS168, it cannot help but be thought that outside influences (including money) probably played a big role in this re-union of forces. Reading Morozov's interviews, one certainly gets the impression that this is a guy who has never been one to eat crow on the basis of anything. He kind of appears to be eating crow here so we are all left wondering what the secret ingredient is.

Still, Takahashi and Morozov having any type of skating relationship again has to set a new high achieved on the wonky scale.

LuCN said:

Russia don't like Canada so they won't let they win?NO,in political way they have many thing to exchange.
Why they support Dai to win if Plushenko can't?Japanese figure skating federation doesn't have much power in skating world.but canada do.
Russian federation can support canada on male and ice dance and then canada support their female and pair,perfect,right?

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LOL! You crack me up!

LuCN said:

Russia don't like Canada so they won't let they win?NO,in political way they have many thing to exchange.

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Let me try to take you seriously:

Why they support Dai to win if Plushenko can't?Japanese figure skating federation doesn't have much power in skating world.but canada do.

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Japan has the most private money/support via the hottest market in the world while Russia has the most government money behind figure skating, which is most popular in these countries. Canada has pitiful private and public $upport for the sport which has also suffered a decline in popularity, with a meager market, taking into consideration also of its small population size. It has also one of the North America's measly two votes compared to the European power bloc of votes. WTH does the myth of Canada being a political power come from and maintained?

Russian federation can support canada on male and ice dance and then canada support their female and pair,perfect,right?

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Patrick Chan and V/M are champions because of their talents, personal dedication, hard work, with family and other private/personal support along with Skate Canada. Russian support has never been a part of their success and is not needed now or in 2014. Conversely, foreign federations can claim no credit on the excellence of the Russian female skaters or their Pairs.

If politicking can assure Canada a Ladies Worlds medal, then I'd believe in it.

Meanwhile, it's Takahashi who is seeking to benefit from Russian association.

eta: So what does Morozov get out of this? I think he wants some Olympic glory since he has not had any Men skater win an Olympic medal under his tutelage. He can't get Chan or Hanyu so Takahashi is his best hope especially sine he had ties and access to reach out to him. Could dropping Lori be part of the deal which Takahashi alluded to as changed circumstance? It's quite something for Dai to give up as he had not had an opportunity to work with the champion making choreographer before.

I also wonder about Amodio in all of this. Fernandez left Morozov because he favoured Amodio and gave him more attention. Now Morozov has publicly announced that Takahashi is his favorite student, the most talented and the OGM contender. How is Amodio taking this and how will he take it during the time leading up to Sochi Olympics?

os168 said:

Yeah funny how big $$$ can change someone's attitude.

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I doubt it's a question of money only. It's not like Nico-chan is a poor boy. And it's not like only his selfish ego does the talking. To have an OC is a healthy ambition of any coach and a professional. Moreover, Morozov was always obsessed with Dai. That's why he got so upset when their cooperation ended.

Bluebonnet said:

Good, so now I know if Chan won over Takahashi, Chan earned it. If Takahashi won over Chan, it will be the result of politiking and conspiracy. I like that!

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The Kremlin is open to another deal- they will give Chan an OM on two conditions: 1. Chan will fall no more than 5 times in total. 2. David Dore has to retire before Sochi.

LuCN said:

Russia don't like Canada so they won't let they win?NO,in political way they have many thing to exchange.
Why they support Dai to win if Plushenko can't?Japanese figure skating federation doesn't have much power in skating world.but canada do.
Russian federation can support canada on male and ice dance and then canada support their female and pair,perfect,right?

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Well, of course Russians, with their passion to artistry, art and education, adore Dai. Why shouldn't they. But that's beside the point. What they surely don't want is to be the country where one more scandalious Olympics happen. That's why they don't want one more controversial OGM. They wish to host the Games with fair play and true champions.

That's a great characterization of the way Russians seem to feel about skating. When I first started watching skating in the eighties, the USSR was at the top of the heap in ice dancing and pairs skating (with one or two exceptions from other countries, such as Torvill/Dean). I realized after a while that I almost never resented the Russians' supremacy because they were so wonderful. They weren't just technically superior, they were artistically the best as well. Pairs skating in the West was a perfunctory athletic exercise often done by brother and sister until the Soviets revolutionized the discipline. Ice dancing...well, for a long time they were the only skating power where athletes were allowed to be impassioned about music and artistry without being considered outsiders. In the U.S. or Canada in those days, a boy who skated was likely to get taunted on his way to the practice rink. In Russia, a champion skater was a national hero. As you say, with hearts like this, no wonder they adore Daisuke.

I don't think adoration of Daisuke's skating or any other skater's needs to be rationalized by nationality.

I wish all choreographers and skaters, especially Morozov and his proteges, would abide by rules laid down by Mary Murphy of So You Think You Can Dance:

1. No booty shaking;

2. No self worthship - self caressing and stroking; and

3. No reaching - with stretched out arms and open hands. (Mostly accompanied by an O face with open mouth.)

:yes:

Just haven't read the tread all through. Just looking for news. As for the above post I first saw the face stroking by MK. I think 'Lyra' at the end was her first brushing her face in program. I do not find it offensive. Just a little flourish by Lori.

Vive le difference between SLC when AFAIK, Niki did Yagudin's SP Winter which I loved, most all lovedit and is a memorable great SP to many folks. Was this his work? The footwork sequence was copied in SOI opening number, full cast. He was King Morozov after he left Tarasova. What has happened?

I know he is very unpopular on boards for his womanizing ways, cheating, divorcing etc. He does not win over the female fans who know all about this. He is darkly handsome. People are happy Miki is done with him. I hated Leonova's LP this year but she won silver at worlds. I'd be interested to know what programs he choreographed that won medals in WC or Olympics. Also very interested to hear what programs he did that people felt were really bad with links. In a decade, his popularity with fans and the respect for his work has done a 180.

It is hard for me to separate someone from what he is to what he does. Other than Leonova (SP and LP) who did he choreograph last season?

He was the David Wilson (ie respected, liked) a decade ago. Based on his work with Leonova and Amodio, I personally hope he does not have a lot of input to the programs. I'd like to see his hits lsited with links and his misses to understand his body of work. Wow, he is so unpopular with the fans nowadays! Deserved?

Olympia said:

That's a great characterization of the way Russians seem to feel about skating. When I first started watching skating in the eighties, the USSR was at the top of the heap in ice dancing and pairs skating (with one or two exceptions from other countries, such as Torvill/Dean). I realized after a while that I almost never resented the Russians' supremacy because they were so wonderful. They weren't just technically superior, they were artistically the best as well. Pairs skating in the West was a perfunctory athletic exercise often done by brother and sister until the Soviets revolutionized the discipline. Ice dancing...well, for a long time they were the only skating power where athletes were allowed to be impassioned about music and artistry without being considered outsiders. In the U.S. or Canada in those days, a boy who skated was likely to get taunted on his way to the practice rink. In Russia, a champion skater was a national hero. As you say, with hearts like this, no wonder they adore Daisuke.

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Yep. Russians really love Takahashi as well as Lambiel because they pretty much are art on ice.

Olympia said:

That's a great characterization of the way Russians seem to feel about skating. When I first started watching skating in the eighties, the USSR was at the top of the heap in ice dancing and pairs skating (with one or two exceptions from other countries, such as Torvill/Dean). I realized after a while that I almost never resented the Russians' supremacy because they were so wonderful. They weren't just technically superior, they were artistically the best as well. Pairs skating in the West was a perfunctory athletic exercise often done by brother and sister until the Soviets revolutionized the discipline. Ice dancing...well, for a long time they were the only skating power where athletes were allowed to be impassioned about music and artistry without being considered outsiders. In the U.S. or Canada in those days, a boy who skated was likely to get taunted on his way to the practice rink. In Russia, a champion skater was a national hero. As you say, with hearts like this, no wonder they adore Daisuke.

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Funny thing is: did the Russian supremacy ever really go away? The nationality of the winning skaters may have changed but the coaching that has been producing medalists continues to be of Russian origin. I don't think there can be a legitimate power shift until a different nation produces a superior school of coaches.

os168 said:

Yeah funny how big $$$ can change someone's attitude. I am sure Miki's WC bonus to her coach team awarded by JSF can't hurt either.

First Hanyu goes to Orser, then Daisuke goes to Morozov. More example of JSF and friends' attempt lobbying for an OGM while trying to 'kit' their top contenders with the 'name' team. Less to do with the quality of work on the ice than about establishing what looks good on paper. Easily exploiting IJS, who's judges are conditioned to study more on the past than judging what is right infront of them due to a default weakness of a human judging system and latency effect, with a scale of value that is entirely elementary and easily manipulated.

Who says money and politics can't buy winners? This sport and the tactics by its most successful federations and winners in the past 2 years at least proves it can, or certainly it wouldn't stop people blatantly trying. People who had been disillusioned with the sport before and think it is corrupted and fixed, things like this just makes it easier to believe so.

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So which federation are you accusing of buying winners?

os168 said:

First Hanyu goes to Orser, then Daisuke goes to Morozov. More example of JSF and friends' attempt lobbying for an OGM while trying to 'kit' their top contenders with the 'name' team. Less to do with the quality of work on the ice than about establishing what looks good on paper. Easily exploiting IJS, who's judges are conditioned to study more on the past than judging what is right infront of them due to a default weakness of a human judging system and latency effect, with a scale of value that is entirely elementary and easily manipulated.

Who says money and politics can't buy winners? This sport and the tactics by its most successful federations and winners in the past 2 years at least proves it can, or certainly it wouldn't stop people blatantly trying. People who had been disillusioned with the sport before and think it is corrupted and fixed, things like this just makes it easier to believe so.

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I highly doubt that the JSF is involved in this decision of Daisuke working together with Morozov. Morozov has publicly said some nasty things about the JSF in the past that indicated some falling-out between them and it looks like he has fallen off the JSF's list of favoured foreign coaches. For instance, the JSF heavily pressured Miki to leave Morozov for ages and have long stopped sending Japanese skaters to him for coaching and choreography. For better or for worse, this looks like it was entirely Daisuke's decision. If the JSF wasn't able to successfully force Daisuke to go to a foreign coach in 2009 (and apparently they did try very hard to do so), I doubt they would succeed now when Daisuke is older and even more successful.

DianaSelene said:

Yep. Russians really love Takahashi as well as Lambiel because they pretty much are art on ice.

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according to the reports and the fans number ,I think Russian love Johnny Weir most.much more than Dai and Lambiel,though I love Dai more...

I think Johnny is probably the most popular foreign skater for Russian fans in general, but I've seen videos of Russian fan meetings with Stephane and Daisuke and they both seem well-loved and popular in Russia based on the enthusiasm and number of fans in them.


BTW the International Figure Skating magazine Facebook page claims that Lori Nichol is indeed going to choreograph Daisuke's programs next season and that Daisuke confirmed this information yesterday. Are there any other sources confirming this?

I think Lori has a real opportunity here to create an indelible masterpiece with Daisuke. I know Lori gets crap for her ubiquitous programs, quite a few of which are not as inspired as they could be. And rightfully so. But she still comes up with amazing, genius combinations of music + skater + choreography now and then, like having Mao skate a mesmerizing piece to a patriotic hymn sung by a choir of British boy sopranos. I think Daisuke is quite possibly the best canvas for an artist at this level of competitive skating. I'm excited to see Lori make the most of it.