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Thread: Scoring Requirements (TES requirements for ISU Championships, and new GP Score reqs)

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    Scoring Requirements (TES requirements for ISU Championships, and new GP Score reqs)

    Debate has been raging over at FSU about the new TES requirements and how damaging they'll be to less deep federations. Indeed, the smaller federations were very shortsighted when they voted to remove the preliminaries, as the ISU Council responded with these new minimums. The basic consequence is that idea that all federations have one spot at Worlds in each discipline, regardless of how they placed the year prior, is a thing of the past. The new TES Minimums are as follows

    ISU European and ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships 2013:
    MEN SP 25,00 FS 45,00
    LADIES SP 20,00 FS 36,00
    PAIR SKATING SP 20,00 FS 36,00
    ICE DANCE SD 18,00 FD 28,00

    ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013:

    MEN SP 20,00 FS 40,00
    LADIES SP 20,00 FS 35,00
    PAIR SKATING SP 20,00 FS 30,00
    ICE DANCE SD 17,00 FD 27,00

    ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2013:

    MEN SP 35,00 FS 65,00
    LADIES SP 28,00 FS 48,00
    PAIR SKATING SP 28,00 FS 45,00
    ICE DANCE SD 29,00 FD 39,00
    Last edited by blue dog; 07-09-2012 at 04:13 PM.

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    It seems to me that this will make for a much smaller roster of competitors at Worlds. If countries such as, say, the Philippines can't qualify anyone in a discipline, but there's still a maximum of three that any country can send, and those spots are designated by the prior year's rankings, then the total number of skaters won't be adjusted by skaters from any of the stronger federations, isn't that so?

    While I understand that the ISU wants to uphold certain standards, this is self-defeating, it seems to me. For one thing, how will skaters from weak federations ever gain international experience? For another, how will skating build an audience in countries that don't get to send skaters? Surely there's a better way to keep competitions to a high standard.

    I am reminded of Chinese pairs coach Yao Bin's first trip to Worlds. He and his partner came in dead last. But it was the view of skating excellence that he got at that competition that galvanized him to build China's pairs program into the marvelous entity it later became. Would we have had Shen and Zhao without that early international effort by Yao Bin and his partner?

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    We have the GP series for the elites but World Championships and the Olympics should encompass the whole world to include all the best skaters every nation can produce. Things go in cycles. While the U.S. is lamenting the demise of figure skating's popularity, it is currently hot in Japan, likely to continue on to China and one day back in the USA. Meanwhile, the sport should be inclusive to encourage and nurture pioneering talents from smaller newer federations. We need more hands to pass the torch around to ensure its health and growth.

    As the new rules stand, does each Team Event member have to meet the TES requirements individually or as a couple?
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 07-01-2012 at 08:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    We have the GP series for the elites but World Championships and the Olympics should encompass the whole world to include all the best skaters every nation can produce.

    Meanwhile, the sport should be inclusive to encourage and nurture pioneering talents from smaller newer federations. We need more hands to pass the torch around to ensure its health and growth.


    I have always enjoyed skaters from smaller federations at 4CCs and look forward to getting to see these skaters to improve in their own ways respectively each season. For instance Danielle Obrien & Gregory Merriman of Australia at 4CC was for me this past season, whose free dance to Glenn Miller medley I enjoyed and thought they progressed a lot under Pasquale and Anjelika!

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    Since skaters have to do both the team and individual event, I think the minimum TES rule will apply to both. However, we don't know at this point what the TES minimums will be for the Olympic season.

    If the field for 2013 Worlds is severely depleted because so few skaters qualified, the ISU may have to rethink those values.

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    Is skating so crowded, so hugely popular, that we need to find ways to weed out skaters and fans? I don't think so.

    At this point, it would be nice to attract new audiences and up-and-coming skaters. This policy does exactly the opposite.

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    I also don't like these kind of limitations, especially because countries with strong skaters aren't going to be able to send more athletes. So the net result is fewer skaters will be able to experience the magic of Worlds.

    The change does address something that I don't like, which is when a marginal federation can send weak skaters on the strength of one athlete, when that athlete retires the following year. As an example, someone can win Worlds and if another teammate finishes just outside the top 10, they can send 3 skaters to next year's Worlds. If that World champion retires, then the federation can send 3 skaters who cannot compete for the top placements when stronger countries can send only 1 or 2. Yes, those countries cannot send more skaters if the World champion's country sends fewer, but at least there is some correlation between the strength of the current stable of skaters and whether they can go to Worlds.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Is skating so crowded, so hugely popular, that we need to find ways to weed out skaters and fans? I don't think so.
    .
    A smaller roster is more cost effective in lots of ways... more average joes off the street are more apt to go to an event that is *maybe* 2 hours long instead of an entire day... with skaters they don't know/aren't elite...

    that's the only thing I can think for the reasoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    We have the GP series for the elites but World Championships and the Olympics should encompass the whole world to include all the best skaters every nation can produce.
    Wasn't it Skate Canada that threatened ISU to abolish Worlds-2013 after ISU canceled preliminaries? It seems to me that after such a blackmail ISU didn't have much of a choice than either 1. introduce high TES limit, or 2. beg Putin to say once again "That's not an expensive event" and host Worlds-2013.

    I didn't follow the ISU Congress, so feel free to correct me if I got it wrong. To me the chronology of the events looks this way: small federations were childishly happy with the idea that preliminaries might get cancelled. It means their skaters will get a direct access to Worlds and free of charge, unike in preliminaries where federations have to pay to organizers if their skaters won't qualify. After the preliminaries got cancelled, Skate Canada said their word. Then the ISU introduced the high TES and small federations realized that they got screwed.

    Qualification rounds exist in all major sports. It's simply normal to have them. All options that they offer now, like to take part in senior B event and get TES minimum, are not in fact the real options since they are not Worlds. What I don't get is why they cancelled preliminaries in the first place. If the reason is that some small federations in fact didn't pay for taking part in preliminaries when they were obliged to, ISU could simply disqualify those particuar federations from taking part in the following Wolrds preliminaries, unless they pay all their debts. But not to cancel preliminaries for everyone.

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    Thanks for your hard work. Very enlightening.

    The statistic about Canada's ladies brings a thought to mind. Suppose that Osmond is still the only Canadian lady with the baseline score by Worlds, and Phaneuf wins Nationals. Phaneuf can't be sent, and Osmond has to go, even if she comes in, say, fourth?

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    Custom Title Mattieu's Avatar
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    This Japanese sight has an amazing amount of results information all in one place.
    So easy to find any ISU result at the click of a button!
    http://deep-edge.net/result.php?s=2011&e=

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    Moving up the testing structure Kypma's Avatar
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    Thanks to Mattieu from me too! that list is a great reference. And to Doris for the breakdown in dance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    The statistic about Canada's ladies brings a thought to mind. Suppose that Osmond is still the only Canadian lady with the baseline score by Worlds, and Phaneuf wins Nationals. Phaneuf can't be sent, and Osmond has to go, even if she comes in, say, fourth?
    From what I gather, Phaneuf could still go to 4CC and try to get the minimum score there, or at any other senior B post-Nationals. It's not like the World team is always selected at Nats; recall that just this past season they waited for the outcome of 4CC between her and Lacoste. But yes, if no other lady reached the minimum TES scores by worlds, then Skate Canada would have to send Osmond (or no one at all, but that seems silly).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    We have the GP series for the elites but World Championships and the Olympics should encompass the whole world to include all the best skaters every nation can produce...
    I think there has been a gradual but irresistible movement throughout Cinquanta's reign to make the ISU less and less a community of national federations and more and more a world sports-governing body. It seems possible that one day the world championship will be contested by top-ranking individual skaters without regard to nationality.

    The biggest change by far in moving from the 6.0 ordinal system to the present code of points paradigm is the role of the technical specialists. These officials are appointed directly by the ISU, they serve strictly at Cinquanta's pleasure, and in principle do not represent any national federation.

    The older model was that each nation send its team to the world championship and especially to the Olympic games. The national tram comprised athletes, coaches, federation officials, publicists, and judges. The team was charged with bringing back as many medals as possible, and each team member was expected to do his or her part toward that goal, hence the lack of confidence in the fairness of judging that plagued figure skating throughout its 100-year-plus history.

    To me, this minimum score thing fits the trend of increasing the central authority of the ISU and diminishing the prerogatives of the member federations.

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    Does the minimum requirements apply to the Olympics? I believe it would be counter to the Olympics spirits and rules.

    One major concern I have about a possible long term consequence of the minimum requirements based on the Technical Scores is that it would induce a push for young skaters to focus on training jumps prematurely and overly hard, not only on the expense of their basic skating skills but also of their bodies which may pay an early and permanent price.

    ISU does provide for adjustments depending on the actual number of skaters eligible for these competitions, but their consideration will be based on economics, not the welfare of the skaters, the federations, or the sport.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Does the minimum requirements apply to the Olympics? I believe it would be counter to the Olympics spirits and rules.
    I think it has become quite common in most Olympic sports. Here are the qualifying standards for track and field for the London games.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oly...ification.html

    For instance, in the men's hundred meters the "A" standard is 10.18 seconds and the "B" standard is 10.24 seconds. A country can enter up to three sprinters if they have that many who have met the A standard. If a country has no sprinter who has met the A standard, they may send one (only) sprinter who has met the B standard. If no sprinter meets even the B standard, that country cannot participate in the event.

    I don't know what the exact formula is, but I believe that these times are set by first deciding the "target" number of athletes (2000 for the London games), then setting the qualifying times at whatever level is expected to make it come out that way.

    Edited to add Just for reference, in the U.S. Olympic trials just completed, 15 men and 15 women met the A standard in the 100 meters.
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-04-2012 at 05:13 PM.

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