Comebacks: Ando, Kim, Plushenko, Weir, etc.

Serious Business · Jul 10, 2012

deedee1 said:
I would give millions of my (humble ) credits any day to those who SURVIVED such a crucial transitional period from 6.0 to COP, successfully TRANSFORMED themselves and WON the big titles under the current system; such as Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, Brian Joubert, Jeffrey Buttle, Evan Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi.

Let's not forget skaters in other disciplines who did the same. Shizuka Arakawa won her two biggest titles under each of the systems. Irina Slutskaya was massively successful before and after COP. Shen and Zhao. Navka/Kostomarov.

Although, what it boils down to is, the COP/IJS didn't spring up in a vacuum. It was based on existing competitions and the top competitive programs skaters laid out. The things it rewards and emphasizes already exist in 6.0 skating. Some skaters took to it better than others, of course. But the opposite is also true. Buttle may never have had a World title under 6.0. Lysacek may have missed out on his Olympic gold without the COP. The only thing we know for sure is that Plushenko is a Skating God no matter what system is in place.

Buttercup · Jul 11, 2012

seniorita said:
It is late here and I read: Plushenko is the only alive skater to have defeated yagudin..

As far as I can tell there are only three other active skaters who have even competed against Yagudin (not counting the Japan Open).

ImaginaryPogue said:
Kwan was robbed in Nagano. Figures suck. Damn those Austrian judges. Didn't Sonja Henjie's dad bribe the audience?

What did the Austrian judges do?

deedee1 said:
I would give millions of my (humble ) credits any day to those who SURVIVED such a crucial transitional period from 6.0 to COP, successfully TRANSFORMED themselves and WON the big titles under the current system; such as Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, Brian Joubert, Jeffrey Buttle, Evan Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi.
Who else DID actually win the Euro and Worlds since 2004? Only Patrick Chan and Florent Amodio (correct me if I am wrong).

And more remarkably, some of them Evgeni, Brian and Daisuke STILL compete at this elite level and aim for an Olympic medal at Sochi.

You're wrong. But that's yet another skater who started out under 6.0. So, for that matter, did Carolina Kostner. Lysacek, OTOH, only skated a couple of senior international events under 6.0. Anyway, it's pretty cool to see skaters have such long and successful careers, and I agree that they deserve a lot of credit for adjusting to the many changes the IJS has brought and continues to bring. If you read KvdP's post-Worlds interview on IN, he discusses how difficult it can be to face off against skaters who were trained for the current system from a younger age.

What stands out the most about Plushenko (to me at least) is this dude HAS NOT FALLEN JUST ONCE at any competitions after Mens SP at Salt Lake City in 2002 to this date! @_@ The number of competitions he entered was limited of course, but who else could have done that?
He already won 1 OGM, 2 OSMs, 3 Worlds, 4 GPF, 7 Euros and he STILL WANTS to improve as a skater. His skating was not my cup of tea for a long time (because I rooted for Alexei around 2002), but I now respect and admire Evgeni and Mr. Mishin so much. :yes:

Not true (bonus). Seniorita, don't watch, I am not into torturing my friends.

But I do respect Plushy and what he has accomplished in his career (and much credit to Mr. Mishin as well).

deedee1 · Jul 11, 2012

Buttercup said:
Not true (bonus). Seniorita, don't watch, I am not into torturing my friends.

But I do respect Plushy and what he has accomplished in his career (and much credit to Mr. Mishin as well).

oh...

: During Vancouver Olympics, our Japanese announcer on TV was shouting into his microphone that Plushenko did not fall at all since SP at 2002 SLC and I believed...Thanks for correcting me.

Watching the clips, I am rahter relieved to know that Evgeni is a human just like us, because I always had to wonder he might be from another universe!

As for Verner, he is another skater who was raised up under the old system as you say, thus I excluded him.

seniorita · Jul 11, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Kwan was robbed in Nagano. Figures suck. Damn those Austrian judges. Didn't Sonja Henjie's dad bribe the audience?

What happened with the Austrian judges?
Kwan was robbed in Nagano. :yes:

deedee1 said:
What stands out the most about Plushenko (to me at least) is this dude HAS NOT FALLEN JUST ONCE at any competitions after Mens SP at Salt Lake City in 2002 to this date! @_@ The number of competitions he entered was limited of course, but who else could have done that?

He has fallen 3 times, at Euros 2004 lp (i think this is the most :eek:

axel for me), Worlds 2004 lp which was :laugh:

and the splat at Worlds 2005 sp which was painful to watch.:no:

edit: oh i see everything i said on the post is written already.

plushyfan · Jul 11, 2012

Buttercup said:
As far as I can tell there are only three other active skaters who have even competed against Yagudin (not counting the Japan Open).

What did the Austrian judges do?

You're wrong. But that's yet another skater who started out under 6.0. So, for that matter, did Carolina Kostner. Lysacek, OTOH, only skated a couple of senior international events under 6.0. Anyway, it's pretty cool to see skaters have such long and successful careers, and I agree that they deserve a lot of credit for adjusting to the many changes the IJS has brought and continues to bring. If you read KvdP's post-Worlds interview on IN, he discusses how difficult it can be to face off against skaters who were trained for the current system from a younger age.

Not true (bonus). Seniorita, don't watch, I am not into torturing my friends.

But I do respect Plushy and what he has accomplished in his career (and much credit to Mr. Mishin as well).

He fell at the Moscow World Championships, he had terrible pain, because Plush had bilateral groin hernias, after this had surgery in Munich. But he wanted to compete in Moscow, and started the competition.
The Moonlight Sonata is one of the best Sp of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlGVCUwzb7I

plushyfan · Jul 11, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Kwan was robbed in Nagano. Figures suck. Damn those Austrian judges. Didn't Sonja Henjie's dad bribe the audience?

I totally agree. Kwan should have won.

seniorita · Jul 11, 2012

Buttercup said:
As far as I can tell there are only three other active skaters who have even competed against Yagudin (not counting the Japan Open).

Joubert, KVDP(not active), who else?

Buttercup · Jul 11, 2012

seniorita said:
Joubert, KVDP(not active), who else?

Joubert is the only other one to have been on the podium with Yagudin (here, enjoy teenager Baboo with Yags and Sasha Abt). But there actually are two other guys who are not KvdP (though I'm not sure one of them should count). Let's see if anyone knows the answer...

plushyfan · Jul 11, 2012

Buttercup said:
Joubert is the only other one to have been on the podium with Yagudin (here, enjoy teenager Baboo with Yags and Sasha Abt). But there actually are two other guys who are not KvdP (though I'm not sure one of them should count). Let's see if anyone knows the answer...

ABT WAS ROBBED in 2002! He was the best, not Yagudin.

seniorita · Jul 11, 2012

Buttercup said:
Joubert is the only other one to have been on the podium with Yagudin (here, enjoy teenager Baboo with Yags and Sasha Abt). But there actually are two other guys who are not KvdP (though I'm not sure one of them should count). Let's see if anyone knows the answer...

Lindeman counts? Is Sandhu coming back?

Buttle, Lambiel?

Mathman · Jul 11, 2012

Buttercup said:
What did the Austrian judges do?

seniorita said:
What happened with the Austrian judges?

Oh those Austrians!

At the 1980 Olympics there were three Germanic judges on the ladies panel (East Germany, West Germany, and Austria). They (along with four other judges on the nine-judge panel) cheated, conspired, and in general sold their souls to the Devil to let Anett Poetsche win instead of Linda Fratianne. The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.

This was revenge for what happened in 1927. Austrian Herma Szabo was going for her record sixth world championship in Oslo. The five panel judge comprised three rascally Norwegians and two Austro-Germans. Sonja Henie won, three judges to two

-- her first of ten world championships. Szabo was so put out that she retired on the spot. The next year the ISU changed the rules to say that each country could have only one judge on the panel.

An the 1906 World championships, held in Munich, defending champion Ulrich Salchow refused to compete against Austrian Gilbert Fuchs because he knew he didn't have a chance against Fuchs in Germany.

Two years later at the 1908 Olympic games in London, Fuchs took one look at the judging panel and decided not to compete. Three Swedes swept the podium (Salchow, Johansson, and Thoren). Russian Nikolai Panin came second to Salchow in the school figures portion, but when he saw how Salchow was marked by the judges he withdrew before the free skating.

Buttercup · Jul 11, 2012

seniorita said:
Lindeman counts? Is Sandhu coming back? Buttle, Lambiel?

No, probably not, and definitely not. But I'll give you one of the answers - the easier one.

Mathman said:
At the 1980 Olympics there were three Germanic judges on the ladies panel (East Germany, West Germany, and Austria). They (along with four other judges on the nine-judge panel) cheated, conspired, and in general sold their souls to the Devil to let Anett Poetsche win instead of Linda Fratianne. The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.

Well, Sonia Bianchetti claims otherwise

And I don't believe East and west Germany were very friendly back then.

ice coverage · Jul 11, 2012

Not to make a mountain out of molehill, but John Kerr's Twitter conversation today raised my eyebrows (emphases added):

Ryan Stevens ‏@ohh_n

@Jkerrbear I'm still holding out for British gold in ice dance. ‪#coughcough‬ ‪#comeback‬! ‪#anothercough‬

John Alastair Kerr ‏@Jkerrbear

@ohh_n sometimes I do think about it

7:53 AM - 11 Jul 12

Jaana · Jul 11, 2012

yaya124 said:
For his program in 2010 probably, but not for his programs in the last season, and certainly not for the programs in the coming season. But I guess, for some people, Plushenko=no transitions, no matter what he does.

Nevertheless, this season would be very interesting with all these "old" stars competing.

As I watch this performance from 2012 EC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg

I can see that Plushenko´s "transitions" are after a jump and there is a lot of plain sroking before a jump... This is the Russian idea of having transitions, LOL, totally different compared to what Chan and Takahashi are performing.

mskater93 · Jul 11, 2012

Mathman said:
The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.

It was actually called "Factored Placements" but in some cases "Fractured Placements" makes more sense! Each segment received a factor and your placement in each segment was multiplied by the factor.

When there were three segments, it was 0.3, 0.2, and 0.5 for figures, SP, FS which changed to 0.2, 0.3, and 0.5 as figures were reduced as a percentage.

blue dog · Jul 11, 2012

mskater93 said:
It was actually called "Factored Placements" but in some cases "Fractured Placements" makes more sense! Each segment received a factor and your placement in each segment was multiplied by the factor.

When there were three segments, it was 0.3, 0.2, and 0.5 for figures, SP, FS which changed to 0.2, 0.3, and 0.5 as figures were reduced as a percentage.

I remember this! During the SP/LP (91-97) era, it became 4.0/6.0. I remember this as "so-and-so-needs-help" system.

Olympia · Jul 11, 2012

Mathman said:
Oh those Austrians!

At the 1980 Olympics there were three Germanic judges on the ladies panel (East Germany, West Germany, and Austria). They (along with four other judges on the nine-judge panel) cheated, conspired, and in general sold their souls to the Devil to let Anett Poetsche win instead of Linda Fratianne. The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.

This was revenge for what happened in 1927. Austrian Herma Szabo was going for her record sixth world championship in Oslo. The five panel judge comprised three rascally Norwegians and two Austro-Germans. Sonja Henie won, three judges to two -- her first of ten world championships. Szabo was so put out that she retired on the spot. The next year the ISU changed the rules to say that each country could have only one judge on the panel.

An the 1906 World championships, held in Munich, defending champion Ulrich Salchow refused to compete against Austrian Gilbert Fuchs because he knew he didn't have a chance against Fuchs in Germany.

Two years later at the 1908 Olympic games in London, Fuchs took one look at the judging panel and decided not to compete. Three Swedes swept the podium (Salchow, Johansson, and Thoren). Russian Nikolai Panin came second to Salchow in the school figures portion, but when he saw how Salchow was marked by the judges he withdrew before the free skating.

Well, Salchow won out in the end: he has a jump named after him. I can't resist pointing out that there's no jump called the Fuchs.

As for the German judges colluding, I actually remember hearing from the old Cold War days that even though East and West Germany didn't get along politically, judges from either Germany would be more likely to enjoy and support an ethnic German skater from either country. Of course there's no saying how much this impacted particular competitions.

plushyfan · Jul 11, 2012

Jaana said:
As I watch this performance from 2012 EC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg

I can see that Plushenko´s "transitions" are after a jump and there is a lot of plain sroking before a jump... This is the Russian idea of having transitions, LOL, totally different compared to what Chan and Takahashi are performing.

Why do you think the current system is the best? I liked the old programs that I looked much more relaxed. The new programs that annoy me sometimes, too much movements. And many male skaters doesn't look good, when they skate.
Eurosport commentary much more better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOW1gt2Hrnk&feature=related

For example Sonia Bianchetti hates the sytem and she wrote after Sheffield:

Sonia Bianchetti Garbato about EC http://www.soniabianchetti.com/about_sonia.html

Plushenko, who placed second in the short program, gave a strong performance to "Tango de Roxanne", which included a quadruple toe-loop and seven triples, including two triple Axels. Evgeny's free program was the only flawless program of the event. The fact he was able to execute a quad was a kind of miracle because of the serious problems he is having with his knee. He will have to undergo surgery again in the next weeks.
In spite of this, the Czar was able to give an explosive performance, at great speed and full of passion. Evgeny was the only skater who really filled the ice, who was able to communicate all the time with the spectators in the arena, driving them crazy. Once again he proved to be a great champion. Welcome back, Evgeny! But a question comes to my mind: why do we have to rely on the comeback of an old champion to create such an atmosphere in the arena? Why are the new talented skaters not able to achieve this? Is there something wrong in the development of the sport?

I look forward to when Chan blow up the arena outside of North America.

plushyfan · Jul 11, 2012

Mathman said:
Oh those Austrians!

At the 1980 Olympics there were three Germanic judges on the ladies panel (East Germany, West Germany, and Austria). They (along with four other judges on the nine-judge panel) cheated, conspired, and in general sold their souls to the Devil to let Anett Poetsche win instead of Linda Fratianne. The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.

This was revenge for what happened in 1927. Austrian Herma Szabo was going for her record sixth world championship in Oslo. The five panel judge comprised three rascally Norwegians and two Austro-Germans. Sonja Henie won, three judges to two -- her first of ten world championships. Szabo was so put out that she retired on the spot. The next year the ISU changed the rules to say that each country could have only one judge on the panel.

An the 1906 World championships, held in Munich, defending champion Ulrich Salchow refused to compete against Austrian Gilbert Fuchs because he knew he didn't have a chance against Fuchs in Germany.

Two years later at the 1908 Olympic games in London, Fuchs took one look at the judging panel and decided not to compete. Three Swedes swept the podium (Salchow, Johansson, and Thoren). Russian Nikolai Panin came second to Salchow in the school figures portion, but when he saw how Salchow was marked by the judges he withdrew before the free skating.

OMG! What a man you are!

seniorita · Jul 11, 2012

Jaana said:
As I watch this performance from 2012 EC

Jaana said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg

I can see that Plushenko´s "transitions" are after a jump and there is a lot of plain sroking before a jump... This is the Russian idea of having transitions, LOL, totally different compared to what Chan and Takahashi are performing.

Agreed, but transitions are not the alpha and omega of figure skating, no matter the campaign the last few seasons. It is one of the many stuff required. Luckily it has started deflating the whole brainwashing thing.

Daisuke is not who he is because of his transitions, there are a lot more in his skating than transitions before, and after his jumps

ALso if you look carefully Daisuke doesnt have so many transitions as you claim, certainly not as many as Chan, which is why I like him.

Mathman have you digested the Wikipedia?

Thanx once again for the reply.

Buttercup you are killing me. Before Verner I watched worlds and olympics list of partricipants. I skipped Euros. So now I watched Euros, Kristofer Bertnsson is the other choice or it doesnt count cause he retired? I missed him a lot at the last Euros..

Comebacks: Ando, Kim, Plushenko, Weir, etc.

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