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Thread: Comebacks: Ando, Kim, Plushenko, Weir, etc.

  1. #61
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    I would give millions of my (humble ) credits any day to those who SURVIVED such a crucial transitional period from 6.0 to COP, successfully TRANSFORMED themselves and WON the big titles under the current system; such as Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, Brian Joubert, Jeffrey Buttle, Evan Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi.
    Let's not forget skaters in other disciplines who did the same. Shizuka Arakawa won her two biggest titles under each of the systems. Irina Slutskaya was massively successful before and after COP. Shen and Zhao. Navka/Kostomarov.

    Although, what it boils down to is, the COP/IJS didn't spring up in a vacuum. It was based on existing competitions and the top competitive programs skaters laid out. The things it rewards and emphasizes already exist in 6.0 skating. Some skaters took to it better than others, of course. But the opposite is also true. Buttle may never have had a World title under 6.0. Lysacek may have missed out on his Olympic gold without the COP. The only thing we know for sure is that Plushenko is a Skating God no matter what system is in place.

  2. #62
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    It is late here and I read: Plushenko is the only alive skater to have defeated yagudin..
    As far as I can tell there are only three other active skaters who have even competed against Yagudin (not counting the Japan Open).

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Kwan was robbed in Nagano. Figures suck. Damn those Austrian judges. Didn't Sonja Henjie's dad bribe the audience?
    What did the Austrian judges do?

    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    I would give millions of my (humble ) credits any day to those who SURVIVED such a crucial transitional period from 6.0 to COP, successfully TRANSFORMED themselves and WON the big titles under the current system; such as Evgeni Plushenko, Stephane Lambiel, Brian Joubert, Jeffrey Buttle, Evan Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi.
    Who else DID actually win the Euro and Worlds since 2004? Only Patrick Chan and Florent Amodio (correct me if I am wrong).

    And more remarkably, some of them Evgeni, Brian and Daisuke STILL compete at this elite level and aim for an Olympic medal at Sochi.
    You're wrong. But that's yet another skater who started out under 6.0. So, for that matter, did Carolina Kostner. Lysacek, OTOH, only skated a couple of senior international events under 6.0. Anyway, it's pretty cool to see skaters have such long and successful careers, and I agree that they deserve a lot of credit for adjusting to the many changes the IJS has brought and continues to bring. If you read KvdP's post-Worlds interview on IN, he discusses how difficult it can be to face off against skaters who were trained for the current system from a younger age.

    What stands out the most about Plushenko (to me at least) is this dude HAS NOT FALLEN JUST ONCE at any competitions after Mens SP at Salt Lake City in 2002 to this date! @_@ The number of competitions he entered was limited of course, but who else could have done that?
    He already won 1 OGM, 2 OSMs, 3 Worlds, 4 GPF, 7 Euros and he STILL WANTS to improve as a skater. His skating was not my cup of tea for a long time (because I rooted for Alexei around 2002), but I now respect and admire Evgeni and Mr. Mishin so much.
    Not true (bonus). Seniorita, don't watch, I am not into torturing my friends.

    But I do respect Plushy and what he has accomplished in his career (and much credit to Mr. Mishin as well).

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post

    Not true (bonus). Seniorita, don't watch, I am not into torturing my friends.

    But I do respect Plushy and what he has accomplished in his career (and much credit to Mr. Mishin as well).
    oh... During Vancouver Olympics, our Japanese announcer on TV was shouting into his microphone that Plushenko did not fall at all since SP at 2002 SLC and I believed...Thanks for correcting me.
    Watching the clips, I am rahter relieved to know that Evgeni is a human just like us, because I always had to wonder he might be from another universe!

    As for Verner, he is another skater who was raised up under the old system as you say, thus I excluded him.

  4. #64
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Kwan was robbed in Nagano. Figures suck. Damn those Austrian judges. Didn't Sonja Henjie's dad bribe the audience?

    What happened with the Austrian judges?
    Kwan was robbed in Nagano.

    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    What stands out the most about Plushenko (to me at least) is this dude HAS NOT FALLEN JUST ONCE at any competitions after Mens SP at Salt Lake City in 2002 to this date! @_@ The number of competitions he entered was limited of course, but who else could have done that?
    He has fallen 3 times, at Euros 2004 lp (i think this is the most axel for me), Worlds 2004 lp which was and the splat at Worlds 2005 sp which was painful to watch.

    edit: oh i see everything i said on the post is written already.
    Last edited by seniorita; 07-11-2012 at 02:36 AM.

  5. #65
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    As far as I can tell there are only three other active skaters who have even competed against Yagudin (not counting the Japan Open).


    What did the Austrian judges do?


    You're wrong. But that's yet another skater who started out under 6.0. So, for that matter, did Carolina Kostner. Lysacek, OTOH, only skated a couple of senior international events under 6.0. Anyway, it's pretty cool to see skaters have such long and successful careers, and I agree that they deserve a lot of credit for adjusting to the many changes the IJS has brought and continues to bring. If you read KvdP's post-Worlds interview on IN, he discusses how difficult it can be to face off against skaters who were trained for the current system from a younger age.


    Not true (bonus). Seniorita, don't watch, I am not into torturing my friends.

    But I do respect Plushy and what he has accomplished in his career (and much credit to Mr. Mishin as well).

    He fell at the Moscow World Championships, he had terrible pain, because Plush had bilateral groin hernias, after this had surgery in Munich. But he wanted to compete in Moscow, and started the competition.
    The Moonlight Sonata is one of the best Sp of all time.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlGVCUwzb7I
    Last edited by plushyfan; 07-11-2012 at 05:34 AM.

  6. #66
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Kwan was robbed in Nagano. Figures suck. Damn those Austrian judges. Didn't Sonja Henjie's dad bribe the audience?
    I totally agree. Kwan should have won.

  7. #67
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    As far as I can tell there are only three other active skaters who have even competed against Yagudin (not counting the Japan Open).
    Joubert, KVDP(not active), who else?

  8. #68
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Joubert, KVDP(not active), who else?
    Joubert is the only other one to have been on the podium with Yagudin (here, enjoy teenager Baboo with Yags and Sasha Abt). But there actually are two other guys who are not KvdP (though I'm not sure one of them should count). Let's see if anyone knows the answer...

  9. #69
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Joubert is the only other one to have been on the podium with Yagudin (here, enjoy teenager Baboo with Yags and Sasha Abt). But there actually are two other guys who are not KvdP (though I'm not sure one of them should count). Let's see if anyone knows the answer...
    ABT WAS ROBBED in 2002! He was the best, not Yagudin.

  10. #70
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Joubert is the only other one to have been on the podium with Yagudin (here, enjoy teenager Baboo with Yags and Sasha Abt). But there actually are two other guys who are not KvdP (though I'm not sure one of them should count). Let's see if anyone knows the answer...
    Lindeman counts? Is Sandhu coming back? Buttle, Lambiel?

  11. #71
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    What did the Austrian judges do?
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita
    What happened with the Austrian judges?
    Oh those Austrians!

    At the 1980 Olympics there were three Germanic judges on the ladies panel (East Germany, West Germany, and Austria). They (along with four other judges on the nine-judge panel) cheated, conspired, and in general sold their souls to the Devil to let Anett Poetsche win instead of Linda Fratianne. The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.

    This was revenge for what happened in 1927. Austrian Herma Szabo was going for her record sixth world championship in Oslo. The five panel judge comprised three rascally Norwegians and two Austro-Germans. Sonja Henie won, three judges to two -- her first of ten world championships. Szabo was so put out that she retired on the spot. The next year the ISU changed the rules to say that each country could have only one judge on the panel.

    An the 1906 World championships, held in Munich, defending champion Ulrich Salchow refused to compete against Austrian Gilbert Fuchs because he knew he didn't have a chance against Fuchs in Germany.

    Two years later at the 1908 Olympic games in London, Fuchs took one look at the judging panel and decided not to compete. Three Swedes swept the podium (Salchow, Johansson, and Thoren). Russian Nikolai Panin came second to Salchow in the school figures portion, but when he saw how Salchow was marked by the judges he withdrew before the free skating.

  12. #72
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Lindeman counts? Is Sandhu coming back? Buttle, Lambiel?
    No, probably not, and definitely not. But I'll give you one of the answers - the easier one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    At the 1980 Olympics there were three Germanic judges on the ladies panel (East Germany, West Germany, and Austria). They (along with four other judges on the nine-judge panel) cheated, conspired, and in general sold their souls to the Devil to let Anett Poetsche win instead of Linda Fratianne. The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.
    Well, Sonia Bianchetti claims otherwise And I don't believe East and west Germany were very friendly back then.

  13. #73
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Not to make a mountain out of molehill, but John Kerr's Twitter conversation today raised my eyebrows (emphases added):

    Ryan Stevens ‏@ohh_n
    @Jkerrbear I'm still holding out for British gold in ice dance. ‪#coughcough‬ ‪#comeback‬! ‪#anothercough‬

    John Alastair Kerr ‏@Jkerrbear
    @ohh_n sometimes I do think about it
    7:53 AM - 11 Jul 12

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    For his program in 2010 probably, but not for his programs in the last season, and certainly not for the programs in the coming season. But I guess, for some people, Plushenko=no transitions, no matter what he does.

    Nevertheless, this season would be very interesting with all these "old" stars competing.
    As I watch this performance from 2012 EC

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJtNXvyWbg

    I can see that Plushenko´s "transitions" are after a jump and there is a lot of plain sroking before a jump... This is the Russian idea of having transitions, LOL, totally different compared to what Chan and Takahashi are performing.
    Last edited by Jaana; 07-11-2012 at 12:47 PM.

  15. #75
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The next year the ISU changed the rules from combined scores to fractured placements so that a skater could not build up such a huge lead in figures that it was impossible for free skating specialists to catch up.
    It was actually called "Factored Placements" but in some cases "Fractured Placements" makes more sense! Each segment received a factor and your placement in each segment was multiplied by the factor.

    When there were three segments, it was 0.3, 0.2, and 0.5 for figures, SP, FS which changed to 0.2, 0.3, and 0.5 as figures were reduced as a percentage.

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