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Thread: Comebacks: Ando, Kim, Plushenko, Weir, etc.

  1. #121
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Yes, of course they are different skaters, but Takahashi and Chan are doing transitions which deserve high PCS score, Plushenko is not.
    Dai and Chan well deserve higher pcs for various reasons but I want to remind you that transitions is one bullet in the pcs.
    So if this was a mathematic statement , any skater who does transitions doesnt deserve high pcs score. They would deserve high transition score.

  2. #122
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Since this dead horse keeps suffering, if I recall your podium was

    1. Takahashi
    2. Kozuka
    3. Plushenko or Wier (I think you felt Wier at the time, but I also know you thought Plushenko's jump difficulty might have been enough). Correct?

    plushyfan, I'm not a Plushenko fan but even I was amazed by his Sheffield LP - the sheer competitive vigour alone is astonishing. But no, that was nowhere near the complexity of what Chan or Takahashi (or Abbott on his best days) does.

    Obviously, if you're bored by the more complex stuff, you're bored by it. Others are bored by the stand-and-pose aspect of Plushenko's skating. Others are bored by Chan's lack of showmanship. We're all attracted to figure skating for different reasons, and each top skater has their own unique skill sets that we respond to (or not).

    But Chan's footwork is sick. The footwork to his Take Five SP might be the most difficult ever.
    Of course, of course, it's matter of taste who is our favorite.

  3. #123
    Custom Title DianaSelene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaana View Post
    Yes, of course they are different skaters, but Takahashi and Chan are doing transitions which deserve high PCS score, Plushenko is not.
    Plushenko is great in other component elements and has greatly improved his transitions. So what you say is not fully correct. JUST transitions and lack of other components do not deserve higher pcs scores.
    Last edited by DianaSelene; 08-11-2012 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    No problem.
    and entire post
    .
    Lot of stuff to think about! Sorry about the shingles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Hmm, he had leans on 4 jumps - both of the Lutzes, the Loop, and one of the Triple Axels. That Axel and the second Lutz additionally had minor problems on the landings. Yes, he was still definitely the best in terms of jumps in 2010, but it was far from his best. I feel there are skaters who were overall better than him at that competition, despite deserving less points on the jumps. Of course, Evan Lysacek was not one of them.
    I remembered the lutz combo going well along with the 3A combo. It was so rare to not see those kind of air positions result in pops or falls by the skaters so because that didn't happen it just didn't seem like it become a justification of why he should have lost because there were not actual jump failures. It was really a brand new thing I had never read before it trying to justify a person losing "leans in the air" on successful jumps!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Scores Plushenko got at Europeans were ridiculously inflated. The fact he got 8s for transitions doesn't mean he deserved them! Just compare what he does between his elements with Chan's or Dai's programs. The difference is really visible as long as you can distinguish between Plushenko's crossovers and Chan's complex and intricate footwork...
    Euro judges are inflationary toward Plushenko but the Olympic judges were brutal! Far more brutal than to any other skater.

    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Dai and Chan well deserve higher pcs for various reasons but I want to remind you that transitions is one bullet in the pcs.
    So if this was a mathematic statement , any skater who does transitions doesnt deserve high pcs score. They would deserve high transition score.
    I know what you are saying. PCS has IN, TR, PE, SS, and CH. If you think transitions are worth 20 or 30 which many people think would be a good score for Plushenko that does not mean all PCS must be 20 or 30. Like he got 80+ in PCS and the SS and PE are good for 80. Interpretation was also good 70 to 80. Choreography was something I liked so 70 is good. Transitions is sometimes almost like choreography to seemingly a lot of people. 20 to 30 is what I feel is what he would be given by a lot of pe. At the Olympics some judges wanted him to be 50 in transitions or whatever the multiple of 5 would be in the SP. You have to average all the things together! So whatever his transitions score would be would always be lower than his total PCS score.
    Last edited by gmyers; 08-11-2012 at 04:09 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianaSelene View Post
    Plushenko is great in other component elements and has greatly improved his transitions. So what you say is not fully correct. JUST transitions and lack of other components do not deserve higher pcs scores.
    Which components (choreography, performance, interpretation, skating skills, transitions) do you think he excelled at in Sheffield?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    New IN article:
    "Kostner may retire, Ando committed to competing: Last two ladies world champions heading in opposite directions"

    I have been wondering whether Ando's heart is really in her comeback.
    I cannot read Japanese, but some of the recent tweets that Ando has sent in English give the impression that she is seriously depressed. Skater friends, such as Misha Ge and Daisuke Murakami, have been trying to cheer her up.
    Success on the ice doesn't necessarily bring happiness.
    Best wishes to both Ando and Kostner, no matter what their futures hold!
    I am a bit confused, if she doesnt want to compete then why is she?

  7. #127
    Custom Title DianaSelene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Which components (choreography, performance, interpretation, skating skills, transitions) do you think he excelled at in Sheffield?
    ALL OF THEM!!!!

  8. #128
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I expect many many posts like that during Sochi cause no other Federation other than Russian is strong enough to be politiking but you what? He could actually take bronze and deserve it.
    I'm sorry Seniorita if you think they are not going to pull every string to get their athletes where they want. I think other feds will too, but russia has a history of being, well, better at it. I like Arthur a lot, and he may well deserve better than bronze. I think he is wonderful and would be better if he got out from under shadow of Plushenko, and wish he had a different coach as Mishin is really Plushy's father and Arthur will never get what Mishin can give him while Plush skates.

    But I do think there is a tremendous amount of corruption in every country. Russia and her athletes get very upset and usually protest any result. You know the situations that were contested. In FS Irina in 2002 was really too much.

    Sorry, I feel this way, and you are entitled to see things as you wish. I like skaters from around the world, whereas, you are endearingly devoted to Plush and the Russian skaters. That is fine with me. I kind of don't have huge nationalism issues that some (not you, but some) cannot get over.

  9. #129
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Imaginery Pogue the point of Euros was not to excel to the pcs but to be better than the rest at this competition, no?
    I would say performance and interpretation of whatever choreography he was given (better than Amodio's for sure) was what set him apart. Plus the only jump he crooked was the 2axel. Maybe if you see the whole final group together in the order they skated, you can see what I saw. Skating Skills you know better, I find them good. Thomas and Amodio had the best in that competition for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post

    Sorry, I feel this way, and you are entitled to see things as you wish. I like skaters from around the world, whereas, you are endearingly devoted to Plush and the Russian skaters. That is fine with me. I kind of don't have huge nationalism issues that some (not you, but some) cannot get over.
    Errm, no, Plushenko is my favorite skater that I dont need to have an excuse for but I m not devoted to the Russian skaters and I root for skaters from many countries, some of them I see they are better than Plushenko. The russian skaters for me are Plush, V/T and Liza, Adelina and Julia.They happen to be very good skaters. You dont know me that well.
    You can say whatever you want about RF, I see politiking from everywhere. My post was because I believe it is unfair to claim Arthur will have a politiking bronze when competition hasnt placed yet.

    From what I saw, Mishin devotes more ice time on Arthur and Liza than Plush. And they have different ice time schedules, they dont train together most of the day. Plus Arthur is really pushed in this group to set himself apart and surpass Plushenko, at least he does more different quads in practice. It will be a hard season, he blew the Worlds and they now have one spot that probably will give to Plushenko because as much as people think he sucks he wont finish 16th, that is the only problem I see. Which coach would be better now for him?
    Last edited by seniorita; 08-12-2012 at 04:33 AM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Dai and Chan well deserve higher pcs for various reasons but I want to remind you that transitions is one bullet in the pcs.
    Well, it was about transitions I was posting above.

  11. #131
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Which components (choreography, performance, interpretation, skating skills, transitions) do you think he excelled at in Sheffield?
    Yes, all of them!!!!! And this was a general opinion in Eurpean media. Listen to the Eurosport commentators!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOW1g...eature=related

    Nicky Slater:ES comentator
    ......
    Skating highlights? Plushenko, of course. Evgeni was not ‘more of the same’ for me, which is what I expected. There was less frenetic movement, more strength in his presence, sophistication in the choreography and maturity, plus the impressive technical. Great to see him back stronger than ever.


    Sinead Kerr:
    ……
    The main event this year – if the crowd was anything to go by – was the Men’s. The arena was packed and the audience was excited, mainly, I think, because of the return of Olympic gold medallist and twice silver medallist, Evgeni Plushenko, who – as ever – didn’t disappoint.
    We have done many shows with Evgeni and there is no doubt that he is a star in the skating world. He has a presence which is hard to define and almost impossible to imitate – as his training partner, runner up Artur Gachinski, can attest to.
    Artur skated cleanly and landed more quads than Evgeni, tried his best to skated like him and in some ways is more able in the transition steps. Yet, somehow, when he finished, he was met with good applause rather than the impromptu standing ovation and wild enthusiasm following Plushenko. Many people questioned Evgeni’s comeback, but I think he proved here in Sheffield that he is still one of the best competitors ever in the sport and certainly a big draw. He is also a charmer, praising the organization and atmosphere of the event in his interview following the competition.

    Morozov:
    TR: What was the main event of the Europeans?
    NM: Pluschenko's gold. I'm overwhelmed with his skating! In the Lp he showed the level that no one could this season, not even the Canadian Patrick Chan. Many say Pluschenko's components were too high, but I would give him even higher marks! He has the charisma that a true champion must have....

    The main event of the competition in Sheffield became the return of Evgeni Plushenko. I was simply shocked from his performance. How much masculine power he has!
    In the free program Evgeni showed such a level, which in this season cannot show even Patrik Chan.

    And the marks for the components are not heightened. I would have put even higher ones! The skating, which Plushenko shows, is a real man’s skating. He has a charisma. That is why his skating is a felt like a skating, not just walking on the ice.

    etc., etc.
    Do you think they are blind, or don't understand the figure skating?
    Last edited by plushyfan; 08-12-2012 at 06:07 AM.

  12. #132
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post



    Errm, no, Plushenko is my favorite skater that I dont need to have an excuse for but I m not devoted to the Russian skaters and I root for skaters from many countries, some of them I see they are better than Plushenko.
    I agree, some skaters are better in some aspect. But he can offset it with his competitive abilities. If anybody is very good in training, that's of little value.

    And I also think no one would be better for Arthur like Mishin.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Imaginery Pogue the point of Euros was not to excel to the pcs but to be better than the rest at this competition, no?
    I would say performance and interpretation of whatever choreography he was given (better than Amodio's for sure) was what set him apart. Plus the only jump he crooked was the 2axel. Maybe if you see the whole final group together in the order they skated, you can see what I saw. Skating Skills you know better, I find them good. Thomas and Amodio had the best in that competition for me.
    Of course. I'd have to rewatch all the skates to compare them, PCS wise, but Plushenko earned his Euro title this year, no denying it.

    plushyfan, I'd say Morosov is blatantly politicking, that Kerr actually has very little in her comment that relates to PCS scoring and Nicky has a little more, but not enough for me to actually argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan
    I agree, some skaters are better in some aspect. But he can offset it with his competitive abilities. If anybody is very good in training, that's of little value.
    Absolutely true. And that's why he remains such a threat.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'd say Morosov is blatantly politicking, ...
    Really?! Someone has just switched back to him and "blatantly", I mean honestly, stated to wanting to use his politicking for Sochi.

  15. #135
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    I remembered the lutz combo going well along with the 3A combo. It was so rare to not see those kind of air positions result in pops or falls by the skaters so because that didn't happen it just didn't seem like it become a justification of why he should have lost because there were not actual jump failures. It was really a brand new thing I had never read before it trying to justify a person losing "leans in the air" on successful jumps!
    Everything matters. Bad air position means less GOE.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Since this dead horse keeps suffering, if I recall your podium was

    1. Takahashi
    2. Kozuka
    3. Plushenko or Wier (I think you felt Wier at the time, but I also know you thought Plushenko's jump difficulty might have been enough). Correct?
    My immediate reaction was that Weir deserved Bronze, but that was influenced by how poorly I thought of Plushenko after his SP that had some of the most horrible musical interpretation ever, crappy spins, and a real lack of great skating skills compared to many of the other skates. Plushenko's LP was better than my immediate reaction at the time (which was also influenced by watching the anti-Plushenko NBC coverage directly beforehand), although the program and his skating quality were definitely a shadow of his former self.

    I also didn't factor in Weir's lacking SP enough at the time. I definitely still feel Weir outskated Lysacek in the LP, though, and I still feel Takhashi and Kozuka deserved the top spots at that Olympics. Their overall skating quality was the best of the competition, FAR superior to Plushenko and Lysacek, and they had the most difficult LP's.

    1. Takahashi (SP 1, LP 1) - Really screwed over by undeserved < calls and too much of a deduction on the ! calls. The fall in the LP didn't matter, he was still the best. If Patrick Chan can fall 3 times these days and still beat everyone else, then Takahashi at 2010 Olympics certainly had a 1 fall cushion over the rest of the field, with the way they skated.
    2. Kozuka (SP 7, LP 2) - Yes, his LP really is that good. A clean Quad and 3Axel-3Toe, speed, edges, and a sensitivity that suits the music really well.
    3. Plushenko (SP 3, LP 3) - He deserves a medal for skating relatively clean with the only Quad-Triple combinations of the competition. Everything else about his skating was lacking, although his innate performance ability in the LP was still better than Lysacek's and he at least had SOME musical interpretation.
    4. Lysacek (SP 2, LP 5) - Very good SP performance and such a lackluster LP performance. The jumps are small (and that second Triple Axel is just barely rotated and landed), the choreography and the interpretation especially are poor, and his skating skills are entirely average for someone at this level. He deserves 5th in the LP only because of how relatively clean it was...I'd barely put him ahead of Patrick Chan's performance that had a fall and a step-out.
    5. Weir (SP 6, LP 4) - The SP was too reserved, not enough attack (and it wasn't a great program to begin with), which resulted in a bit less quality on the technical elements too. The LP had lovely musical interpretation and flow over the ice at times (I'd have him 3rd on PCS for the LP), but obviously the difficulty wasn't there in comparison to the top 3. He should have been really close in points to Plushenko's LP, though.
    6. Chan (SP 8, LP 6) - A messy SP and I don't like his LP, but he skated it extremely well aside from the couple jump mistakes.
    7. Lambiel (SP 5, LP 7) - The worst in terms of jumps out of the top 8 at this competition and, except for the second half of his SP, he skated so nervous throughout the whole competition. His amazing spins and second footwork sequence keep him that high in the SP, but he really should have been hammered in the LP on the PCS because it was not good.
    8. Oda (SP 4, LP 8) - A technically solid, if bland, SP performance and an overly cautious LP performance (which seriously detracts from the character he is trying to play here) that becomes drastically hurt by the fall and resulting "timeout" he takes.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 08-12-2012 at 07:25 PM.

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