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Thread: Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13?

  1. #136
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I believe Jason will do juniors internationally, seniors nationally.

    However, he tried the 3A in both programs at a small summer competition earlier this year.
    OMG! Did he land them? How'd they look? Are there vids?

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    Jason is only 17 years old. He's risen steadily in the ranks. He's serious about his skating and no doubt knows emphatically that he needs a 3A and a quad. I'm sure he's working diligently on getting both those jumps. Does anyone think he needs to either leave his coach for someone with a higher profile and perhaps more experience with a skater on his level or maybe get a jump coach on his team?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I believe Jason will do juniors internationally, seniors nationally.

    However, he tried the 3A in both programs at a small summer competition earlier this year.
    I was looking at Jason's 2A last season and wondering if he will be able to do a 3A with his current technique. His jumps are not big, either in height or distance. There is a lot to like about his skating but until he starts landing the big jumps, I'm not going to hop on his bandwagon just yet.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan66 View Post
    Joshua was named to the Team B envelope; therefore, he does get funding from U.S. Figure Skating. The Team B funding is the highest level of funding that he was eligible for given his results from last season.
    The problem is that if Joshua wins the JGPF and the junior worlds, would he be eligible for the Team A envelope? Plus, even if he gets the Team A funding, that still doesn’t mean the USFS will cover all his expenses + invite him to stay in nice villa for free. So that would still be different than Han Yan’s situation. And if you look at Patrick who is already the world champion, he is wearing the most plain clothes and people complain he’s not a fashionista. Poor guy, he has to be frugal in order to pay for his expenses.

    I don’t get mad when poor students get scholarship, and I don’t have problems with people getting sponsorships or donations to help funding. But I think it’s unfair to all other skaters if a rich student gets financial aid. What Han Yan gets is financial aid, not scholarship. The USFS and the JSF operate under the scholarship system, which is different than how the Chinese fed spends money on Han Yan. A rich student should pay for his/her own fees, no need for financial aid. Since Han Yan is competing at international competitions against non Chinese skaters, I think it is unfair to his competitors.

    Quote Originally Posted by yousunny View Post
    As tax payers, Chinese Fans are just unhappy about Federation's unwise decision for holding Yan in Junior events
    I did not want to get into Chinese tax politics, but since you started it… you know Han Yan’s fans are only 0.001% of Chinese taxpayers. My relative from my maternal side is currently living in China with his family, and the company he works at has sponsored some sports events in China so they know how sports work there. He told me that local Chinese really hate “second-generation rich,” Chinese teenagers born into rich families who like to show off luxury goods bought by their wealthy parents, and some people even want them stoned.

    You’re Chinese, so you know that many Chinese only make like $800 each month and they still need to pay taxes. If they know their money is wasted on a second-generation rich, I bet 90% or more of Chinese taxpayers would not want to pay taxes anymore. They would want to save their money so they can buy a mini apartment or send their children to better schools. Most Chinese never stay in a villa throughout their whole life.

    If Yan likes to skate, then he should use money from his rich family, or he can get sponsorships or fan donations. No problem with all that, as the sponsors and donators would pay for his costs voluntarily. But now he’s using money of other taxpayers, who need financial aid more than himself. If the majority of taxpayers know this, then they will be more unhappy than those 0.001% taxpayers who are Yan’s fans. This whole thing is not only unfair to fellow Chinese taxpayers but also a form of corruption.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I hope skating will survive a CoP champion like Chan. Really, he is so lacking in charisma and the sport seems to be in a nose dive since he won the championship.

    The vasty majority of the N. American public disagrees....skating is more than blades on ice, and speed.
    I also think skating is more than speed and good skaters need charisma and artistry. I’m also worried about figure skating’s future because if you look at the new junior world champion Han Yan, my goodness, the guy is rushed, emotionless, sloppy with his windmill arms, hunched back, and stiff torso. I used to think Patrick needed to work on artistry and audience connection, but after I saw Han Yan, Patrick looked like an artist and I would rather watch him with 3 falls than a clean Yan. If this Yan is the “future star” as bragged by his Chinese fans, then I’m worried about skating’s future.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    And then Jason is just so unique and racks up points on everything so even with just a solid 3a and no quad, could still be a threat IMO. Josh is really beautiful and I feel his skating is pretty universally appealing (clean lines, pure jump technique, he's masculine and good looking in a clean cut way, and his skating has nice classical style). Brown is more edgy and Weir-ish but most people seem to like that!
    This! I think Joshua and Jason are 2 talented skaters with different styles. Though still a little bit juniorish, they already have very good artistry for their age. Even if they lose to Han Yan next season, I like that they’re still working hard to be real figure skaters, the all-round skaters with in-betweens and emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Ultimately, regardless of country, eligible skaters are competing in a rather paternalistic system, in which many decisions and opportunities are out of their control and disproportionate to their own achievements. I don't see why skaters being slighted and ignored under one federation makes it OK for another federation to do it to some other skater.
    If this was what you said regarding Joshua and Yan, then I would not have a problem. If you look at ISU rules, they both are qualified to move up if their federations agree. But what you said was all like Yan should move up because he’s talented etc. and Joshua does not have to move up because he’s not as good. I got mad when I read your first post, I felt that you were biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I do think as it is currently done, PCScoring seriously undervalues artistry, performance ability and musicality. Perhaps, behind the scenes, judges will get some severe memos reeducating them in this regard.
    I agree on this and artistry should be more important in future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    In which case, Chan may see his PCS drop back to Earth and Takahashi would get a serious boost (and deservedly so).
    I feel you are biased again. You often blamed Patrick for his lack of artistry and audience connection, but you said Han Yan is so talented etc. In reality Yan is a lot worse than Patrick in the artistry category. If Chan may see his PCS drop back to Earth, then Yan may see his PCS drop back underground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    OMG! Did he land them? How'd they look? Are there vids?
    Jason landed the 3a in the SP but it was probably URed. In the LP he tried the 3a again but fell. Because Southport Summer Classic is a very small competition, there are no videos available online now.

    Quote Originally Posted by treeloving View Post
    I don't understand why Lakeside try to connected the fact that Han Yan got financial support from Chinese fed, get free training and has luxury item with whether he should complete in Sr gran Prix or not.

    I don't understand the logic here.

    Even if he is richest men in the world, if he deserve to compete in Senior then he deserve it.
    I understand you’re Chinese and English is your second language, so you may get confused by long posts. I don’t have a problem with that. However, I still wish you could read my posts more carefully so you would understand what I wrote and not twist my words. There are many ESL people on this forum, which made this such a nice multicultural forum. I only wish you could be more patient and read more carefully.

    First of all, no need to underline the word “deserve.” I did not choose to use that word. Another Chinese fan iceflame used it. I just quoted her. And we were discussing why Han Yan deserved to train at Ice Castle for free + to stay in some nice villa for free and does that mean other skaters did not deserve to have all their expenses covered? We were not discussing whether Yan deserves to compete seniors, so no need to mix the two topics together.

    Second of all, I’m not the one who started the discussion about how rich Yan’s family is. If you read my first post #55, I said the Chinese fed is spending big money on Yan without getting into Yan’s own family economy. Then Serious Business asked me “do you get mad when a poor student gets a scholarship?” I had to clarify and tell her that Yan is not a poor student. Why are you trying to mix my clarification with whether Yan deserves to compete seniors?

    Third of all, what I said about whether Yan competes seniors is this: the officers of the Chinese fed are his big bosses, and Yan obeys their decisions. What’s wrong with that? If you look at Joshua, the USFS is not paying for all his expenses, but he still has to obey his fed’s decision.

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    When a federation pays for everything, they call the shots and the skaters do what they're told or they're out of the program. If you want to skate and the federation says no, you don't skate. Katia Grinkov was nearly tossed from the Russian program because they didn't think she was talented enough. She had to beg for her opportunity and she lived in fear they would change their minds. You don't pick you own coach, the federation assigns you to a coach and many of these decisions are based on politics. Japanese skaters can only go to coaches approved by their federation.

    In North America, you pay your own way, but if you are successful, you will get a decent amount of funding from your federation. Expenses for international assignments are covered too. If Skate Canada was paying Patrick's expenses, he would not be training in Colorado. He would be in Barrie at the Mariposa Club. I would rather have a situation where the skaters and/or their parents are free to make their own choices based on what works best for the skater.

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    Haven't read the whole post. Not sure what people are arguing about, but it's silly to say having rich parents is an "unfair advantage." Han Yan's training costs might be sponsored by the Chinese fed and he might have rich parents (I don't know anything about that), but he definitely is good enough to qualify for it based on his results. It's not so easy to make the Chinese national team. How that has anything to do with Josh Farris is beyond me. I mean, the world isn't fair. Isabella Tobias is rich enough to get the best partner she can get. I also happen to think Han Yan has more natural talent than both Farris and Brown, both of whom, mind I say, has very little chance to get to Sochi, whereas Han Yan is a shoo-in at this point. Chinese taxpayers pay for worse things than supporting an Olympic athlete.
    That being said, Yan is definitely not the fed's favorite skater, or otherwise they would send him to senior GP. That kid has shown some discipline issue the fed doesn't like. Free money isn't free. Certain things you can't even buy with money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    When a federation pays for everything, they call the shots and the skaters do what they're told or they're out of the program. If you want to skate and the federation says no, you don't skate. Katia Grinkov was nearly tossed from the Russian program because they didn't think she was talented enough. She had to beg for her opportunity and she lived in fear they would change their minds. You don't pick you own coach, the federation assigns you to a coach and many of these decisions are based on politics. Japanese skaters can only go to coaches approved by their federation.

    In North America, you pay your own way, but if you are successful, you will get a decent amount of funding from your federation. Expenses for international assignments are covered too. If Skate Canada was paying Patrick's expenses, he would not be training in Colorado. He would be in Barrie at the Mariposa Club. I would rather have a situation where the skaters and/or their parents are free to make their own choices based on what works best for the skater.
    I never thought of it quite that way. I always felt a bit sad that here in the U.S. families either had to be rich or had to make sacrifices to allow their kid to keep going in an elite sports career, whereas in other countries, athletes were subsidized. But you're right: a country that pays its athletes' expenses is going to want to call the shots. This might matter less in, say, track and field, where a good coach needs only a few easily diagnosed skills, and one or two good coaches can train all the best athletes in one government-approved training center. But that doesn't always work in skating, where Paul Wylie might flourish with the Scotvolds while Jenny Kirk might nearly drown. And with subsidized skating, there might be mistakes and oversights in deciding who deserves training: I shuddered with horror at your point that Katia was almost dropped by the Soviet federation. (I wonder whether any other amazing skaters got frozen out of the program.) With the private system, you get an athlete like YuNa Kim, and she and her mother somehow sensed that they needed to be (a) out of Korea, (b) in Canada, and (c) with a previously untested coach who would magically be the one to channel her genius into championship material. Or Patrick Chan, who somehow sensed that the best combination of environment and training would be in the Colorado Rockies. I begin to see your point, Dragonlady. This system may not be for everyone in every country around the world, but it certainly has moments where it works in North America.
    Last edited by Olympia; 07-21-2012 at 02:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    Haven't read the whole post. Not sure what people are arguing about, but it's silly to say having rich parents is an "unfair advantage." Han Yan's training costs might be sponsored by the Chinese fed and he might have rich parents (I don't know anything about that), but he definitely is good enough to qualify for it based on his results. It's not so easy to make the Chinese national team. How that has anything to do with Josh Farris is beyond me. I mean, the world isn't fair. Isabella Tobias is rich enough to get the best partner she can get. I also happen to think Han Yan has more natural talent than both Farris and Brown, both of whom, mind I say, has very little chance to get to Sochi, whereas Han Yan is a shoo-in at this point. Chinese taxpayers pay for worse things than supporting an Olympic athlete.
    That being said, Yan is definitely not the fed's favorite skater, or otherwise they would send him to senior GP. That kid has shown some discipline issue the fed doesn't like. Free money isn't free. Certain things you can't even buy with money.
    Han Yan is maybe a more talented JUMPER than Brown and Farris, but in terms of artistry, spins, and expression I'd say Brown and Farris are way ahead of Yan at this point. Yan has good speed, power, and SS but I will admit I don't totally understand why his PCS are so high, and he definitely needs a personality injection.

    Anyways, in terms of Sochi, I'd say both Farris and Brown (3a mastery pending) have a realistic shot. I mean, Abbott will probably be on the team, but he's so inconsistent that even that isn't a given, Weir, we'll see how his comeback goes, it didn't work for Sasha after all, and then there's the likes of Rippon, Miner, Dornbush, Mahbanoozadeh but Josh and Jason really have as good a shot as any of those guys IMO, none of them have a reliable competition quad yet, Josh matched the SB of Miner and Rippon at JW and Jason wasn't far off even without any 3a, and we saw the kind of marks Armin and Ricky got last season...

    Idk, I'd say the Sochi team for men is really up in the air at this point. Abbott is a likely member, but he's Abbott, so there are no guarantees. If there's 3 spots, Josh and/or Jason could definitely make it, but in terms of getting 3 spots in the first place, the field is deep so someone will really have to step up between now and Nationals for the team to have a good shot at doing that...

  9. #144
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Weir, we'll see how his comeback goes, it didn't work for Sasha after all
    yes but unlike Sasha, Johnny is coming back BEFORE the Olympic season to get back in teh swing of things, so he has the upper hand on that competition.

    and then there's the likes of Rippon, Miner, Dornbush, Mahbanoozadeh
    AND MESSING!!!

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    ^^ True. Keegan is awesome.

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    I wouldn't compare Weir to Cohen.

    Weir seems very serious about returning to competition and had been training for months before declaring himself for the GP this year, a full season before Sochi. That seems like a full commitment to his goal.

    Cohen waited until the summer before Vancouver to start training seriously, and due to injury, she dropped out of both her GP events. She had to debut her programs at Nationals and few were surprised when she failed to make the cut.

  12. #147
    Custom Title Victura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    When a federation pays for everything, they call the shots and the skaters do what they're told or they're out of the program. If you want to skate and the federation says no, you don't skate. Katia Grinkov was nearly tossed from the Russian program because they didn't think she was talented enough. She had to beg for her opportunity and she lived in fear they would change their minds. You don't pick you own coach, the federation assigns you to a coach and many of these decisions are based on politics. Japanese skaters can only go to coaches approved by their federation.
    When did this happen with Katia? Before she was paired up with Sergei? I remember she wasn't particularly successful when she was very young when she did singles because she was never a strong jumper.

    I definitely see your point though. I recently listened to Manleywoman's podcast with Sasha Fadeev, where he said that the pressure within the Soviet system was much higher than the pressure in North America since the federation had certain leverage in affecting other parts of one's lifestyle, with regards to housing, the ability to get an education, etc., and because of that, skaters had to agree to whatever the federation wanted them to do. Of course, this was back in the Soviet days, and I'm sure it's not quite like that in Japan or even Russia or China nowadays, but still.

    He also made the point that in NA, succeeding has more to do with one's will, though I would add one's financial capabilities too. The downside to being able to have more control over your own training and skating is that you have to be the one to fund all of it. In the end, there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and neither system is perfect.
    Last edited by Victura; 07-21-2012 at 06:23 PM.

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    I don't know whether Chinese skating has changed since the days when Shen and Zhao were training, but it was very grueling, Spartan, and restricted at that point. The economic improvements in China may have resulted in changes for the better. I remember reading that the skaters weren't allowed to date anyone. At that point, Hongbo Zhao was in his late twenties, and I can't imagine any American skater, or even any Russian skater for that matter, being told that he wasn't allowed to have a social life at all at that age. (Try to envision anyone telling that to Plushenko, or to Oksana Grishchuk.) I can see that kind of restriction with fifteen-year-old gymnasts, but not in men who would be old enough to run for the U.S. House of Representatives (and who, incidentally, are strong enough to hold a full-grown woman aloft on one hand).

  14. #149
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victura View Post
    When did this happen with Katia? Before she was paired up with Sergei? I remember she wasn't particularly successful when she was very young when she did singles because she was never a strong jumper.
    She wrote about it in "My Sergei". They didn't think she'd even make the skating school because she was not the right size starting out as a tot. Then she wasn't very strong in her elements. Even after they paired her with Sergei there was talk that she would be replaced. It would have been skating's loss. I think she wrote about finding out that Sergei'd put his foot down and said if they switched his partner (even though at that point he wasn't not interested in her at all romantically) he'd be done with skating... I could be making that last part up. It's been eons since I've read the book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I used to think Patrick needed to work on artistry and audience connection, but after I saw Han Yan, Patrick looked like an artist and I would rather watch him with 3 falls than a clean Yan. If this Yan is the “future star” as bragged by his Chinese fans, then I’m worried about skating’s future.
    If Yan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. There is no need to use hearsay evidence and start bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.


    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    If you look at Joshua, the USFS is not paying for all his expenses, but he still has to obey his fed’s decision.
    If you really feel that Joshua will be at a huge disadvantage because his training expense is not covered by the USFS, maybe you should visit Josh's personal website to find out how you can make a financial contribution to his skating expense. I am sure your effort will be MUCH MORE appreciated this way.
    Last edited by Gliding on ice; 07-22-2012 at 03:13 AM.

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