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Thread: Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gliding on ice View Post
    If Yan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. There is no need to use hearsay evidence and start bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.

    If you really feel that Joshua will be at a huge disadvantage because his training expense is not covered by the USFS, maybe you should visit Josh's personal website to find out how you can make a financial contribution to his skating expense. I am sure your effort will be MUCH MORE appreciated this way.
    Hmmmm. The comments were fairly made and gave us all, including us fans of Yan, pause . . . for consideration. Forgetting about the economics and the politics, I wish Yan was moving up to seniors. It is overdue based on his talent, which is great. It would also force him to improve his artistry.

    As well, Lakeside's comments should remind us all that the skating world, even though those who follow it and like to think so, does not live in a vacuum. I have heard similar sentiments more generally expressed many times to believe their legitimacy of heart. But even outside of China, in other countries, I often wonder about some skaters whether they had been born in a different country or under different circumstances whether they would have gone farther, or alternatively would we have never seen their talent at all.

    Although I kind of now just take whatever I can get through watching the sport, accepting that life is just like that, every once and a while, I have to wonder why it appears that a federation goes out of its way to make a blunderheaded move, more likely to hurt or punish a skater than help him/her. This is in the case where the skater has made it far enought that his/her talent/potential is undeniable. In the case of Yan, I really feel that here. If China wants to help Yan become better, then he should be advanced. If China doesn't care, and really considers the sport the domain of imperialist pigs, then it can just continue to screw him blue. But going half way with the kid seems kind of strange and a smack-down.

    No federation is perfect, and there is politics, even in Japan where most of us would acknowledge that the model is probably the best for getting the best skaters to skate their best. Even here, it is acknowledged when we write of coaches, that their ability to politic affects the scores of the skaters. And the decisions of the federation regarding coaching we (me too) tend to criticize, but, through its faults, it is pretty amazing and fantastic for what it has accomplished, and it has enough integrity to want its skaters to do well at the highest levels.

    If Yan was in Japan, he would be moved up on the basis of merit, not held back on the basis of politics. But China is a different place, with different values and priorities. Rightly or wrongly, it is out of that context that Yan has to gain entry into the international forum to compete. The discussion here, coming from both sides, on every aspect has been really informative and wise. But the most important aspect that, with skating and its economic barriers to entry, will always have problems like this. Open discussions are important because they help.

    Now, changing gears here, now that it has been confirmed by the publication of the interview with the all-time great Kurt Browning that he was responsible for the choreography of Hanyu's exhibition skate that many people did not like (because it was so much Kurt and not enough Hanyu), now with the skating talent being at such a high level for the elite skaters, it has to be considered as to who will rise next year and who will kind of fall, that the choreography will play a role, not just for the skaters but the choreographers. If one of the top males skaters (who are all changing their choreographers) has a big fall in performance next year, it could be that the choreographer, not the talent of the skater, will be the big factor. (In this regard, I will be most especially interested to see whether Hanyu will get choreography good enough to match his talent and spirit. If Wilson is doing it, this will be his litmus test.)

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    Chinese taxpayers pay for worse things
    The fact that Chinese taxpayers are made to pay for worse things does not mean they should also be forced to pay for this one. Murder is worse than stealing someone’s wallet, but that doesn’t make theft right.

    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Han Yan is maybe a more talented JUMPER than Brown and Farris, but in terms of artistry, spins, and expression I'd say Brown and Farris are way ahead of Yan at this point. Yan has good speed, power, and SS but I will admit I don't totally understand why his PCS are so high, and he definitely needs a personality injection.
    I agree on everything else here except that I think Yan is not that much more talented in terms of jumps than Joshua. First of all Yan’s jumps are not that consistent. I’ve seen them live at JGPF last year, and Yan’s jumps did not have much height, although they covered much distance. When Joshua lands his 4T, there will not be much difference between their jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliding on ice View Post
    As most other users on this forum could tell, yousunny was just trying to express the frustrations of Chinese figure skating fans about the Fed's decision to let Yan stay junior for another year. What is this whole discussion of Chinese taxpayers and "second-generation rich" about?
    Since you are one of Yan’s hardcore Chinese fans, I don’t have a problem when people defend their favorite, but please read yousunny’s post more carefully. She did not post “As Han Yan’s fans, we are unhappy…” She posted “As tax payers…” So I replied to her about Chinese taxpayers. Am I not allowed to reply to a certain point made in a post?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliding on ice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    I used to think Patrick needed to work on artistry and audience connection, but after I saw Han Yan, Patrick looked like an artist and I would rather watch him with 3 falls than a clean Yan. If this Yan is the “future star” as bragged by his Chinese fans, then I’m worried about skating’s future.
    If Yan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. There is no need to use hearsay evidence and start bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.
    I am a fan of Patrick Chan. I don’t like how some posters blame him and I would argue with them, but I would never tell anyone “If Chan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. Stop bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.” Since Chan, Yan, and other skaters are currently competing and audience pay for watching competitions, I believe all figure skating fans have right to watch performances of all of these skaters and say what they like and what they don’t like about these skaters. I respect different opinions as long as they’re not biased and there’s no name calling.

    Btw by your logic, if my post is not your cup of tea, go ahead and read other posts you like. You can always use the “Ignore” button instead of wasting your time to tell me what not to post and what not to watch. Just a suggestion though. You don’t need to adopt it if you don’t want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliding on ice View Post
    If you really feel that Joshua will be at a huge disadvantage because his training expense is not covered by the USFS, maybe you should visit Josh's personal website to find out how you can make a financial contribution to his skating expense. I am sure your effort will be MUCH MORE appreciated this way.
    Ahhh! Now you’re telling me how should I spend my money and my effort. In one post you’re telling me what to do and what not to do three times? I wish I were born in a rich family like Yan so I can have a lot of extra money to do whatever I want, but I’m not that lucky. I have to study hard to get scholarships and work long hours on the weekends to pay for my tuition and fees + Universal Studio + competition tickets. My parents don’t buy me all those luxury items either. Yes, we live in an unfair world.

    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    If one of the top males skaters (who are all changing their choreographers) has a big fall in performance next year, it could be that the choreographer, not the talent of the skater, will be the big factor. (In this regard, I will be most especially interested to see whether Hanyu will get choreography good enough to match his talent and spirit. If Wilson is doing it, this will be his litmus test.)
    I read from the 2012-2013 Programs by Discipline thread that Yuzru Hanyu’s SP is "Parisienne Walkways" by Gary Moore choreographed by Jeffry Buttle. I don’t know how’s the program since there are no online videos now, but I must say, I don’t like this music and can’t think of any skater who will look good skating to it.

  3. #153
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8Br4cohiM

    Peter Tchernyshev looked great skating to anything IMO. Here he and Naomi Lang look great skating to Parisienne Walkways by Gary Moore

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8Br4cohiM

    Peter Tchernyshev looked great skating to anything IMO. Here he and Naomi Lang look great skating to Parisienne Walkways by Gary Moore
    Yes but Peter wears (orr at least in 05 wore) too much cologne... he's one of those guys that seems to bathe in it... he sat behind us during the ice dance events at nationals... found out a few weeks later that it was most likely the reason I had such intense headaches as that's one of my triggers. BLAH.

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    At least that's better than a certain French Olympic medalwinner who didn't seem to bathe or wear deodorant while skating barechested. At one event I sat in the front row and was met with a blast of phew each time he skated by.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    At least that's better than a certain French Olympic medalwinner who didn't seem to bathe or wear deodorant while skating barechested. At one event I sat in the front row and was met with a blast of phew each time he skated by.
    *lovely* though BO does not trigger my migraines... it's perfume/chemical that does it for me... (not that BO is any more pleasant to smell though lol)

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    At least that's better than a certain French Olympic medalwinner who didn't seem to bathe or wear deodorant while skating barechested. At one event I sat in the front row and was met with a blast of phew each time he skated by.
    Now that's what I call a scented candeloro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I don't know whether Chinese skating has changed since the days when Shen and Zhao were training, but it was very grueling, Spartan, and restricted at that point. The economic improvements in China may have resulted in changes for the better. I remember reading that the skaters weren't allowed to date anyone. At that point, Hongbo Zhao was in his late twenties, and I can't imagine any American skater, or even any Russian skater for that matter, being told that he wasn't allowed to have a social life at all at that age. (Try to envision anyone telling that to Plushenko, or to Oksana Grishchuk.) I can see that kind of restriction with fifteen-year-old gymnasts, but not in men who would be old enough to run for the U.S. House of Representatives (and who, incidentally, are strong enough to hold a full-grown woman aloft on one hand).
    Rules are there to be broken. Shen and Zhao certainly didn't start dating as late as they claimed. And Han Yan definitely dates around lol. For some reason Chinese narratives tend to be over dramatic about making sacrifice. It's satisfying to some people.
    To Lakeside though, for what reason do you assume the Chinese taxpayers are unwilling to pay for Han Yan's training costs? I'm guessing we just don't know. Actually, maybe the US taxpayers wouldn't so much object to paying for Josh Farris as well. Maybe the problem lies with the U.S. system's inability to fund their top skaters properly, which is definitely not Han Yan's fault...
    I think Josh Farris has great potential. I also happen to think Jason Brown's so called artistry is overrated. Han Yan however has something special - fantastic skating skill COP likes. I'm not even that much of a fan of his skating. Just stating a fact.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post

    Ahhh! Now you’re telling me how should I spend my money and my effort. In one post you’re telling me what to do and what not to do three times? I wish I were born in a rich family like Yan so I can have a lot of extra money to do whatever I want, but I’m not that lucky. I have to study hard to get scholarships and work long hours on the weekends to pay for my tuition and fees + Universal Studio + competition tickets. My parents don’t buy me all those luxury items either. Yes, we live in an unfair world.
    I don't want to get in the middle of your argument, but this statement of yours is very impressive indeed. Very few people have the self-discipline to do what you're doing. Best of luck to you! You'll be an asset to any career you decide to pursue.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    The problem is that if Joshua wins the JGPF and the junior worlds, would he be eligible for the Team A envelope?
    No.

    2012-13 Team Envelope Criteria

    Envelope A:
    •Placements 1st-10th at the 2012 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
    •2012 U.S. National Senior Champion
    •Placements 1st-3rd at the ISU Senior Grand Prix Final in the 2011-12 season
    •2012 ISU Four Continents Champion

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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    Rules are there to be broken. Shen and Zhao certainly didn't start dating as late as they claimed. And Han Yan definitely dates around lol. For some reason Chinese narratives tend to be over dramatic about making sacrifice. It's satisfying to some people.
    I don't know if Shen and Zhao were forbidden to date but they had been yelled at by their coach to hold hands and to live and die together since the beginning of their partnership. I guess they listened.

    To Lakeside though, for what reason do you assume the Chinese taxpayers are unwilling to pay for Han Yan's training costs? I'm guessing we just don't know. Actually, maybe the US taxpayers wouldn't so much object to paying for Josh Farris as well. Maybe the problem lies with the U.S. system's inability to fund their top skaters properly, which is definitely not Han Yan's fault...
    I assume US taxpayers have a lot to disagree with on how their money is spent.

    I think Josh Farris has great potential. I also happen to think Jason Brown's so called artistry is overrated. Han Yan however has something special - fantastic skating skill COP likes. I'm not even that much of a fan of his skating. Just stating a fact.
    I mostly agree with you here. Though Han Yan seems to have childish streaks off ice sometimes, he has that champion vibes on ice that Brown and even Hanyu lack, as talented as they are. It's the kind of champion vibes Yagudin, Plushenko, Joubert, Chan, et al, have plenty of. Yan's skating is very mature for his age, with fabulous skills. He just needs some seasoning, in choreography and in experience.

    I see Farris as the most promising and soon to be most successful next generation US male skater, able to win some major medals.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 07-22-2012 at 03:19 PM.

  12. #162
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    Rules are there to be broken. Shen and Zhao certainly didn't start dating as late as they claimed. And Han Yan definitely dates around lol. For some reason Chinese narratives tend to be over dramatic about making sacrifice. It's satisfying to some people.
    Several thoughts on this: It's not satisfaction, I think, but a narrative meant to encourage obedience. As in, looky here, average citizen, your heroes got where they are by obeying the authorities and giving up personal freedom!

    At the same time, though, just because people surreptitiously break rules doesn't mean the rules and control in Chinese sports programs aren't a lot stricter than what most people anywhere, in any situation would be used to. Just as kids may sneak around a Catholic school but it doesn't mean the nuns aren't strict (I speak from personal experience)! Having to hide a relationship, as Shen/Zhao might have had to do, is really not that fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    I think Josh Farris has great potential. I also happen to think Jason Brown's so called artistry is overrated. Han Yan however has something special - fantastic skating skill COP likes. I'm not even that much of a fan of his skating. Just stating a fact.
    I think Joshua has all the basics needed to be an effective competitor. But there's just some drive missing to get him to that next level from what I see: the drive to dominate the important competitions and/or the drive to express himself more fully on ice. Unlike you, I definitely think Brown's artistry is amazing. And unlike Farris, I think Brown has a much deeper hunger to succeed competitively and artistically. It's just Brown's high level jumps aren't there yet (fingers crossed for that 3axel).

    Han Yan, on the other hand, belongs in a different context. Unlike the US, China has never had a single male skating star. So far, Han's record shows he's on his way to being the first. I think as raw as Han Yan is artistically, there are some fundamentals in there. He has a basic feel for the music, and I see glimpses of artistry and flair trying to come out. However, full musical expression is like a language he doesn't quite speak yet. And the time to learn languages is when one is young. He needs to be immersed in musical and dance training on a regular basis. The Chinese skating program does not appear to have any facility for that. If his family is as rich as some say, I wish he had the option to fund his overseas training himself. Barring that, competing in seniors would at least expose him to skaters who are more mature and complete artistically.

    My frustration isn't just for Han's sake. I mean, I'd hate to see skating talent squandered anywhere. But for a country that hasn't had a breakthrough success in that discipline, it's especially frustrating. The rise of one trailblazer usually unearths a glut of other stars. Shen/Zhao paved the way for the other Chinese pairs; Midori Ito/Yuka Sato presaged the explosion of Japanese ladies, etc. If the Chinese federation cultivates Han into a star, that will lead to others. It's not just Han's potential they're holding back here.

  13. #163
    On the Ice Wildstorm's Avatar
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    This is going to be an amazing couple of seasons leading up to the games! There are just SO MANY remarkable athletes in the field.
    I hope that Johnny does well, and that Dai can sweep Patrick off the top of the podeum for a bit.
    But out of all of the skaters competing I expect we'll see great things from Yuzuru, that kid's on fire!

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    I think we have the deepest Men's field ever. There are so many quality skaters right now that watching the Men is a joy and a treat, unlike the Ladies field which is generally weak. Chan and Takahashi are at the highest level, but the rest of the top 10 are none too shabby either and with Plushenko, Lysacek and Weir coming back next season, it only gets more difficult to make the podium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8Br4cohiM

    Peter Tchernyshev looked great skating to anything IMO. Here he and Naomi Lang look great skating to Parisienne Walkways by Gary Moore
    Thank you, Doris. You’re indeed an expert! Peter looks handsome in that video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Yes but Peter wears (orr at least in 05 wore) too much cologne... he's one of those guys that seems to bathe in it... he sat behind us during the ice dance events at nationals... found out a few weeks later that it was most likely the reason I had such intense headaches as that's one of my triggers. BLAH.
    Certain types of cologne also give me headaches. Good that we don’t smell anything watching online video. We only watch his great skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I don't want to get in the middle of your argument, but this statement of yours is very impressive indeed. Very few people have the self-discipline to do what you're doing. Best of luck to you! You'll be an asset to any career you decide to pursue.
    Thank you, Olympia. Best of luck to you and the skaters you like in the coming season, too!

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFan66 View Post
    No.

    2012-13 Team Envelope Criteria

    Envelope A:
    •Placements 1st-10th at the 2012 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
    •2012 U.S. National Senior Champion
    •Placements 1st-3rd at the ISU Senior Grand Prix Final in the 2011-12 season
    •2012 ISU Four Continents Champion
    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    To Lakeside though, for what reason do you assume the Chinese taxpayers are unwilling to pay for Han Yan's training costs? I'm guessing we just don't know. Actually, maybe the US taxpayers wouldn't so much object to paying for Josh Farris as well. Maybe the problem lies with the U.S. system's inability to fund their top skaters properly, which is definitely not Han Yan's fault...
    I don’t think there are big problems with the U.S. system. As you can see from SkateFan66’s post, the USFS operates under the scholarship system. You need to fulfill certain criteria in order to get the Team A envelope. I don’t have problem with providing financial aid grants for talented poor skaters like Plushenko and S/Z and other poor Chinese and Russian skaters either. The U.S. government also provides some financial aid loans and grants for poor students, although they have to pay off the loans after several years. The problem with Yan is that rich student should not receive financial aid grant (note the difference between scholarship and financial aid) under any system. I’m not saying it’s Yan’s fault, but his good luck definitely put most of his competitors at a disadvantage.

    As “for what reason do I assume the Chinese taxpayers are unwilling to pay for Han Yan,” I did not elaborate on it because I did not want to get too much into Chinese political economy. But since you are asking now, first of all you know income inequality is a big problem in China and many Chinese hate second-generation rich who show off their luxury items. Second of all corruption is another big problem in China that makes its citizens lose trust in the government. If they find out income inequality and corruption are linked together, they will not be happy.

    There have been news that Chinese government is giving out big prizes like tens of thousands of dollars to Olympic medalists and many Chinese think medalists make too much money. Then Chinese Olympic gold and silver medalists in shooting and their coach (the first medals are expected to come on the shooting and so the medalists usually get high prizes) clarified that they did not get all those high prizes and they also only make several hundred dollars each month, just like many other Chinese. But even after their clarification some Chinese still do not believe them and think they’re intentionally saying that to show off their patriotism. They are already Olympic gold and silver medalists and are likely to win more medals for China at the coming London Olympics, yet some of their compatriots show jealousy and disbelief towards them.

    Income inequality, together with inflation and unaffordable housing, have created big social tensions in China that many Chinese care less about Olympic medals than buying mini apartment for themselves. Chinese taxpayers do not trust how the government is using their money because there’s a high level of corruption in most government agencies, and China’s sport administration center has certainly been associated with corruption. If some Chinese show jealousy and disbelief towards their Olympic gold and silver medalists and multiple time world champions, then I don’t think they will be happy if they find out they’re paying for some junior skater who did not even win JGPF. Unlike Yan, the questioned Olympic shooting medalists are not second-generation rich. They’re from middle-class families and worked hard to attain success. Plus, the taxpayers are not just paying for Yan’s training costs, but they’re paying for his stay in some nice villa in the U.S., that’s something different than what Joshua and even Jeremy get from the USFS.

    I did some research before I posted about the Chinese taxpayers. Because Chinese taxpayers do not have the opportunity to vote on anything, we will never know each of their opinion. I plan to take a class that’s related to Chinese political economy in the fall, so I wanted to warm up for it and conducted a simple survey myself by asking 10 Chinese citizens including my relative’s family, their colleagues and friends, and my schoolmates from mainland China. I asked them, “If given a choice, do you want a part of your taxes to cover Han Yan’s expenses?” 9 out of 10 people voted “No,” only 1 (my uncle) voted “Yes.” In the surveying process most people did not know who is Han Yan, 3 people asked if Yan is a poor child out of school who needs education and they were willing to make donations. I explained to them briefly, “Han Yan is a talented young Chinese figure skater who is likely to win multiple world and even Olympic medals for China.” 5 out of 10 people (they make about $800-$1,000 each month) hesitated and said “I don’t make much money myself.” “I think China’s tax rate is too high for low-income families. I wish we could have a tax cut.” “Can the athlete’s parents also help part of funding? How is Han Yan’s family economy?” I answered “he’s from a rich family and he has luxury items.” Then all 5 people voted “No” and said “I want to save money so I can buy a mini apartment/send my child to better school.” “If Yan’s parents can buy him luxury items, then ask them to pay for his expenses.” “This is another example of how corrupt our government is!” 2 out of 10 people are relatively rich, but they also voted “No” and said “I make like 2 million RMB per year, but I don’t let my teenage child wear luxury items. Something’s wrong with Han Yan’s parents. If we spoil kids like this, they will not be independent and responsible individuals.” “I’ve also been called second-generation rich before, but my dad only wears an Omega. This Han Yan is richer than my dad.” 1 out of 10 people happens to like figure skating and she likes S/Z and Plushenko, but she also voted “No” because she’s only willing to pay for the poor skaters like S/Z and Plushenko, but unwilling to pay for the rich ones. The remaining 1 person did not ask about Han Yan’s family economy and did not want a tax cut but said, “Our government already spends too much money on sports. It’s like they want to hide their inefficiencies by doing the easy things. I wish they could use tax money to help the laid-off workers or to build a strong military so we can beat Japan and get the Diaoyu Islands back, so No.” I did not even tell any of them that Yan stayed in a nice villa while training in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by noidont View Post
    I think Josh Farris has great potential. I also happen to think Jason Brown's so called artistry is overrated.
    I agree about Joshua’s great potential, but I think Jason does have great artistry. I respect your opinion even though I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I assume US taxpayers have a lot to disagree with on how their money is spent.
    But Americans are not paying for all of Joshua’s expenses + his stay in a nice villa in Europe, so it’s different than Han Yan’s situaion. Plus, if the majority of Americans are dissatisfied with how the government spends our money, we have an opportunity to throw the president out of office every 4 years. I don’t think the Chinese have this opportunity even though they deserve it.
    Last edited by lakeside; 07-23-2012 at 12:03 PM. Reason: misspelled prizes

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