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Thread: Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13?

  1. #181
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    The Russian superbabies are not quite soup yet but it's fun watching them grow up. Julia S. is the one to watch this season, I think. Her growth issues are (hopefully) behind her and her jumps are still intact as we saw at the end of last season. Elizabetha T. is a wonder, but I have heard she has grown so I'll wait and see how she's doing. I'm glad to see that she'll be getting real choreography this season. Her LP was truly dreadful last year. She really deserves better than that horrible program.
    Who is Julia S. You mean Adelina? She is grown up lady now and looks great, someone had posted these photos on fsu from The Ice show.

    Liza had Lambiel's choreography last year in sp and I loved it.

  2. #182
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    The season has not started yet, guys!

    Let's see how well YuNa performs without Orser but with Wilson's (probably) gorgeous programs, and with her reportedly 'newly found' motivation (competitive fire) within herself and her 'unchanged' love for skating. Let's see how much Javier and Yuzuru will progress under Orser and how higher both can go up in the mix in the new season, shall we?
    exactly. we don't even know what yuna's condition is nor her preparation. heck she doesn't even have a coach yet. but hey, i'm sure dragonlady is hoping that yuna will fail in order to justify orser's greatness as a coach.

  3. #183
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    I really don't understand why think it the people in North-America, that only few choreographers can do a good program .. I liked Liza's programs. But I didn't like her costumes. Adelina had beautiful costumes.

  4. #184
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    Yes, Liza's costumes were kind of off-putting. I remember laughing at Tara Lipinski's frilly, girlish outfits when she was thirteen and fourteen, but they're beginning to look pretty good in the rear-view mirror compared to the triangles of fabric and all that illusion on Liza.

    As for YuNa, she doesn't have a coach yet? I assumed she was still with Oppegard. Silly me...of course if she's been in Korea all this time, she isn't at the Kwan family rink. She'd better get hopping, though. She's got a lot of catching up to do, and I want to see her at her best.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I really don't understand why think it the people in North-America, that only few choreographers can do a good program .. I liked Liza's programs. But I didn't like her costumes. Adelina had beautiful costumes.
    I'm not sure that's accurate, but which non North-American (based) choreographers do you think we should check out?

  6. #186
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'm not sure that's accurate, but which non North-American (based) choreographers do you think we should check out?
    I can't answer for Plushyfan, but I can think of some good choreographers currently outside of NA - though with so many skaters flocking to such a small number of choreographers, it is something of a challenge! Two obvious ones are Ingo Steuer (though he doesn't work with outside clients, right?) and Kenji Miyamoto. Whoever was responsible for Florent Amodio's programs before he want to Morozov did well - Zhulin? Jeannette? (I know you liked them, too)). I believe Yuzuru Hanyu worked with Bestemianova and Bobrin on his programs last season; those were good. Liudmila Vlasova is listed as the choreographer for Cappellinni and Lanotte, and they had good programs in 2011-12.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    With regard to the Ladies, I don't think Yu-na will be a force without Brian Orser. She had lost a lot of speed, flow, and just general polish in her last visit to Worlds and she's been out of competition ever since so she's unlikely to have maintained her competitive skills considering she's been going to school, etc. Yu-Na was a much better skater with Orserr than she was before, or since. Dumping him was not Team Kim's best idea.
    Difficult to say that Orser made or will make the critical difference. There are other gifted skaters who have not done well with Orser to raise a reasonable doubt on whether he is the panacea to a skater skating his/her best. But even if Orser is that great, given the circumstances of the break-up (especially when details were given out about Yuna's skate program), it would definitely be detrimental for Yuna to go back to Orser. That much is for sure. She will get her best result by skating elsewhere. There are also a lot of other factors, than coaching, which will determine how well she does. She will get the coach she wants and needs to be her best.

    Coming from Toronto, and having followed Orser since he was a kid (and loved his skating and having thought quite highly of him . . . I even remember his commercial for McCain juice when he was a kid), my perspective of him has unfortunately changed watching him coach. His playing out the split of Yuna in the press was, with all due respect, unbecoming of anyone but especially someone who was supposed to be so seasoned. He should have known better. (It also came at the wrong time for the sport generally in Canada to be played out on the front page of the Globe and Mail.) That behavior aside, which speaks more to his character than his ability, the notable skaters who have struggled under him suggest that he is not for everyone. Regarding his present stable of fantastic skaters, especially Javier and Yuzuru, they will do well despite him (as long as he doesn't wreck them by commissioning bad choreography like that trash he had done for Yuzuru's exhibition this year . . . which suggests that he really hasn't understood Yuzuru's skating personality). People love or hate Orser, think he is a genius or a user/frontman, but my opinion is that he has a long road to travel before people are generally going to either take to him or think him worthy of the skaters he coaches.

    I am sorry for not being able to resist wading into this Orser debate but if there is one factor that has probably set back the sport more in Canada and give to the public the incorrect perception of being a refuge of catty arrogance, the Orser factor is probably it. Big time. Just had to say that.

    Let's let Yuna Kim move on in peace and triumphs on both a personal level and a skating level.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    Let's let Yuna Kim move on in peace and triumphs on both a personal level and a skating level.


    Best of luck to YuNa. Best of luck to other skaters who currently work with Orser.
    Let the season begin! NOW!

  9. #189
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Yes, Liza's costumes were kind of off-putting. I remember laughing at Tara Lipinski's frilly, girlish outfits when she was thirteen and fourteen, but they're beginning to look pretty good in the rear-view mirror compared to the triangles of fabric and all that illusion on Liza.
    Liza's costumes didn't suit for the music, and didn't suit for her age.
    Last edited by plushyfan; 07-25-2012 at 02:20 PM.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I can't answer for Plushyfan, but I can think of some good choreographers currently outside of NA - though with so many skaters flocking to such a small number of choreographers, it is something of a challenge! Two obvious ones are Ingo Steuer (though he doesn't work with outside clients, right?) and Kenji Miyamoto. Whoever was responsible for Florent Amodio's programs before he want to Morozov did well - Zhulin? Jeannette? (I know you liked them, too)). I believe Yuzuru Hanyu worked with Bestemianova and Bobrin on his programs last season; those were good. Liudmila Vlasova is listed as the choreographer for Cappellinni and Lanotte, and they had good programs in 2011-12.
    Nice summary of good choreographers outside of N. America. I look forward to seeing more of their works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I think the current crop of women are still adjusting to the stringent under-rotation calls of the modern IJS. Many of these skaters would be attempting more difficult 3/3s, just like the ladies of yore, if the laxer rules were in place. But those 3/3s, like the 3/3s that many past women's luminaries have done, would not pass muster under the current system.
    I was comparing this past season with the next season, and I don’t think the weakness of 2012 worlds ladies’ competition is caused by the strict UR calls. UR calls have existed before this past season, but we have seen more difficult jump layouts before this past season. For instance, the 2012 world silver medalist only had a 3t+3t, while the 2011 world silver medalist did 3lz+3t. There was no UR rule in 2011? Plus, UR rule also applies to men and some men get < on their quad and 3a, but 16 men still went for those difficult jumps in Nice. I don’t think the ladies should use the strict UR rule as an excuse for not pushing themselves at the 2012 worlds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Goodness, do you get mad when a poor student gets a scholarship?
    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    If his family is as rich as some say, I wish he had the option to fund his overseas training himself.
    If Han's family is indeed that rich, then both wishes result in the same thing: Han Yan living and training in Canada with Lori Nichols (or possibly with Patrick Chan's new team).
    Han Yan would be training where he wanted!
    You have a tendency to assume things that you don’t know. First you assumed Han Yan is a poor student who gets a scholarship. After you learned he’s a rich student and what he gets is not scholarship but financial aid, you made another assumption! But there’s no evidence that Han Yan and his parents ever tried to discuss with the Chinese fed that they want to pay for Yan’s own training. Just because Lu Chen demanded independence does not mean Han Yan asked to pay for himself. Chinese and Russian federations are totalitarian, but if a skater really wants something we would still know it. In the ‘90s when the outside world had little information access to Chinese skaters you still found out the quarrel between Lulu and the Chinese fed. We also know that Iliushechkina and her dad are now combating with the Russian fed. You’re just assuming that Yan’s family is willing to pay, but you really don’t know.

    In fact, many Chinese athletes do not love their sports. Some of them choose sports because they don't do well in school and skating (or other sports) is easier and more fun and brings them more fame than studying. There are other benefits like when they retire they’ll get college diploma and have the opportunity to go to an elite graduate school without taking entrance exams. Most Chinese skaters only consider skating as a job, a source of income. They expect to make money from it, not to spend their own money on it.

    A young skater has to really LOVE skating for his/her parents to be willing to pay for all the expenses. Michelle’s dad was willing to make the sacrifices for her because she loved skating more than anything in the world. Patrick loves skating more than all the beautiful clothes and luxury items, so his mom tries hard to support his skating ambition instead of buying him luxury items. You cannot assume that every young skater loves skating in the same way and every parent is willing to provide the same level of support. Some people may love luxury items more than skating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    And their grievances are a lot more immediate: factory workers who aren't paid, farmers who are forcibly moved to make way for developments. And very often, when they vent, they don't have a choice but to go after the government directly.
    The poorest Chinese (laid-off workers, farmers forced out of their farms, etc.) are not the majority of taxpayers and are not so relevant to the question of whether taxpayers are willing to pay for Han Yan’s expenses + stay at the U.S. villa. The poors, however, should receive government financial aid. Many middle-class Chinese show sympathy for the poors but hatred for second-generation rich. They’re willing to pay taxes and even make donations to help the poors, but few would be happy to pay taxes for a rich guy’s stay at a villa.

    You don’t need to preach to them how they should blame the government and not blame the second-generation rich. Most people already know it’s mainly the corrupt and totalitarian government that creats this inequality, but it’s difficult for people to not hate the privileged who is richer than them but also using their money. Many people will hate the government system as well as the privileged. If you’re a poor and your rich neighbor likes to show off his riches, you may not hate him yet. But if the rich neighbor also gets a financial aid from the government while you have to pay high-rate tax and you know what you pay will go into your neighbor’s financial aid, then it’s difficult to not hate your neighbor. Of course you hate the government for creating this ludicrous system, but it’s hard to not also hate your neighbor. Well, maybe you, Serious Business, would still love your neighbor, but many others e.g. some Chinese taxpayers would generate hate toward the neighbor too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    In which case, Chan may see his PCS drop back to Earth and Takahashi would get a serious boost (and deservedly so).
    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    Han's proved himself. Joshua hasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I mean, I'd hate to see skating talent squandered anywhere.
    I don’t think there’s a need to discuss this topic any further with you, since you’ve shown enough dislike and bias against Patrick and Joshua. When you wished Patrick’s PCS to drop back to Earth, you showed enough dislike for him. No need to say you’re his fan after that statement. Joshua and Yan both obeyed their federations and stayed juniors, but you did not treat them fairly from the very beginning. In your first reply to me you blamed Joshua as if it was his own fault for not moving up to senior, while you accused the Chinese fed for Yan’s staying juniors. After I told you they both are qualified to move up, you changed and said “I'd hate to see skating talent squandered anywhere.” Well, you certainly did not hate to see Joshua’s talent squandered. You only defend the skater you like. OTOH, a skater you dislike suffers the same problem and you think he’s not wronged at all. LOL you’re this biased yourself, and you think Chinese taxpayers should only blame the institution and not blame the rich guys who use their money? Easy on yourself and hard on others huh.

  11. #191
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    Difficult to say that Orser made or will make the critical difference. There are other gifted skaters who have not done well with Orser to raise a reasonable doubt on whether he is the panacea to a skater skating his/her best. But even if Orser is that great, given the circumstances of the break-up (especially when details were given out about Yuna's skate program), it would definitely be detrimental for Yuna to go back to Orser. That much is for sure. She will get her best result by skating elsewhere. There are also a lot of other factors, than coaching, which will determine how well she does. She will get the coach she wants and needs to be her best.

    Coming from Toronto, and having followed Orser since he was a kid (and loved his skating and having thought quite highly of him . . . I even remember his commercial for McCain juice when he was a kid), my perspective of him has unfortunately changed watching him coach. His playing out the split of Yuna in the press was, with all due respect, unbecoming of anyone but especially someone who was supposed to be so seasoned. He should have known better. (It also came at the wrong time for the sport generally in Canada to be played out on the front page of the Globe and Mail.) That behavior aside, which speaks more to his character than his ability, the notable skaters who have struggled under him suggest that he is not for everyone. Regarding his present stable of fantastic skaters, especially Javier and Yuzuru, they will do well despite him (as long as he doesn't wreck them by commissioning bad choreography like that trash he had done for Yuzuru's exhibition this year . . . which suggests that he really hasn't understood Yuzuru's skating personality). People love or hate Orser, think he is a genius or a user/frontman, but my opinion is that he has a long road to travel before people are generally going to either take to him or think him worthy of the skaters he coaches.

    I am sorry for not being able to resist wading into this Orser debate but if there is one factor that has probably set back the sport more in Canada and give to the public the incorrect perception of being a refuge of catty arrogance, the Orser factor is probably it. Big time. Just had to say that.

    Let's let Yuna Kim move on in peace and triumphs on both a personal level and a skating level.
    This is just one person's opinion, but I really don't think less of Orser because of the Yuna breakup. From where I sit, I think Orser's mistake was putting his emotions on his sleeve for everyone to see. He should have been more quiet about it, but I don't think it was arrogance that drove it, but rather confusion and frustration. That's what I sensed watching the interviews and other things. While Orser might be seasoned as a coach, YuNa was really his first high-profile client. We're not talking about Frank Carroll here.

    As for skaters who struggled under Orser, i.e. Adam Rippon, we don't have enough evidence that the coaching situation is what drove their problems.

    And I totally disagree that he has done NOTHING for his current skaters (or they have done well despite him). As I said in a previous post (which got deleted for some reason?), I loved what he did with Elene G this season. She had a brand new confidence this year --and I loved she went for 3Z-3T in the Short at Worlds this year. I think he's also helped Javier stay focused this season. And if he lacked credibility, why are skaters still going to him?

    I'd rather not go back and squabble over who was in the wrong in the past, but I think it's quite unfair that Orser's being painted as a terrible coach.

    ETA: In the interest of keeping to the topic of this thread -- I am interested to see how Elene G. will develop this season. I pretty much wrote her off in the last few years, and she totally surprised me this season. I think she can be a factor if she keeps the good work (and she stops making silly mistakes). She has amazing jumps when puts it all together.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 07-25-2012 at 11:34 AM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    Nice summary of good choreographers outside of N. America. I look forward to seeing more of their works.


    I was comparing this past season with the next season, and I don’t think the weakness of 2012 worlds ladies’ competition is caused by the strict UR calls. UR calls have existed before this past season, but we have seen more difficult jump layouts before this past season. For instance, the 2012 world silver medalist only had a 3t+3t, while the 2011 world silver medalist did 3lz+3t. There was no UR rule in 2011? Plus, UR rule also applies to men and some men get < on their quad and 3a, but 16 men still went for those difficult jumps in Nice. I don’t think the ladies should use the strict UR rule as an excuse for not pushing themselves at the 2012 worlds.



    You have a tendency to assume things that you don’t know. First you assumed Han Yan is a poor student who gets a scholarship. After you learned he’s a rich student and what he gets is not scholarship but financial aid, you made another assumption! But there’s no evidence that Han Yan and his parents ever tried to discuss with the Chinese fed that they want to pay for Yan’s own training. Just because Lu Chen demanded independence does not mean Han Yan asked to pay for himself. Chinese and Russian federations are totalitarian, but if a skater really wants something we would still know it. In the ‘90s when the outside world had little information access to Chinese skaters you still found out the quarrel between Lulu and the Chinese fed. We also know that Iliushechkina and her dad are now combating with the Russian fed. You’re just assuming that Yan’s family is willing to pay, but you really don’t know.

    In fact, many Chinese athletes do not love their sports. Some of them choose sports because they don't do well in school and skating (or other sports) is easier and more fun and brings them more fame than studying. There are other benefits like when they retire they’ll get college diploma and have the opportunity to go to an elite graduate school without taking entrance exams. Most Chinese skaters only consider skating as a job, a source of income. They expect to make money from it, not to spend their own money on it.

    A young skater has to really LOVE skating for his/her parents to be willing to pay for all the expenses. Michelle’s dad was willing to make the sacrifices for her because she loved skating more than anything in the world. Patrick loves skating more than all the beautiful clothes and luxury items, so his mom tries hard to support his skating ambition instead of buying him luxury items. You cannot assume that every young skater loves skating in the same way and every parent is willing to provide the same level of support. Some people may love luxury items more than skating.


    The poorest Chinese (laid-off workers, farmers forced out of their farms, etc.) are not the majority of taxpayers and are not so relevant to the question of whether taxpayers are willing to pay for Han Yan’s expenses + stay at the U.S. villa. The poors, however, should receive government financial aid. Many middle-class Chinese show sympathy for the poors but hatred for second-generation rich. They’re willing to pay taxes and even make donations to help the poors, but few would be happy to pay taxes for a rich guy’s stay at a villa.

    You don’t need to preach to them how they should blame the government and not blame the second-generation rich. Most people already know it’s mainly the corrupt and totalitarian government that creats this inequality, but it’s difficult for people to not hate the privileged who is richer than them but also using their money. Many people will hate the government system as well as the privileged. If you’re a poor and your rich neighbor likes to show off his riches, you may not hate him yet. But if the rich neighbor also gets a financial aid from the government while you have to pay high-rate tax and you know what you pay will go into your neighbor’s financial aid, then it’s difficult to not hate your neighbor. Of course you hate the government for creating this ludicrous system, but it’s hard to not also hate your neighbor. Well, maybe you, Serious Business, would still love your neighbor, but many others e.g. some Chinese taxpayers would generate hate toward the neighbor too.




    I don’t think there’s a need to discuss this topic any further with you, since you’ve shown enough dislike and bias against Patrick and Joshua. When you wished Patrick’s PCS to drop back to Earth, you showed enough dislike for him. No need to say you’re his fan after that statement. Joshua and Yan both obeyed their federations and stayed juniors, but you did not treat them fairly from the very beginning. In your first reply to me you blamed Joshua as if it was his own fault for not moving up to senior, while you accused the Chinese fed for Yan’s staying juniors. After I told you they both are qualified to move up, you changed and said “I'd hate to see skating talent squandered anywhere.” Well, you certainly did not hate to see Joshua’s talent squandered. You only defend the skater you like. OTOH, a skater you dislike suffers the same problem and you think he’s not wronged at all. LOL you’re this biased yourself, and you think Chinese taxpayers should only blame the institution and not blame the rich guys who use their money? Easy on yourself and hard on others huh.
    Some people love nice things and skating like Johnny Weir and his designer bags and Sasha Cohen.

  13. #193
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I can't answer for Plushyfan, but I can think of some good choreographers currently outside of NA - though with so many skaters flocking to such a small number of choreographers, it is something of a challenge! Two obvious ones are Ingo Steuer (though he doesn't work with outside clients, right?) and Kenji Miyamoto. Whoever was responsible for Florent Amodio's programs before he want to Morozov did well - Zhulin? Jeannette? (I know you liked them, too)). I believe Yuzuru Hanyu worked with Bestemianova and Bobrin on his programs last season; those were good. Liudmila Vlasova is listed as the choreographer for Cappellinni and Lanotte, and they had good programs in 2011-12.
    Really nice summary of good choreographers. But I mean another thing too. Many North-American figure skating fans, experts, commentators totally disagree with the Europeans. The best example is Plushy's Godfather program. The people went crazy for it, I think that is the most viewed male program on YouTube( in total cca more than 1million) today, but in North-America it is a bad program.
    Very interesting:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0S6NPTPI8 GP final ESPN commentary 2004/2005
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIENLK-tfM ECH 2006 ESPN commentary they really like the program

    aaaand one month later....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21woRiBqrks 2006 OG with NBC commentary, what a bad program!! I really like some posts under the video. Those are their opinions about the commentators. (I can't laugh, I almost explode, when I listen to the commentators. sorry...)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajp5x...eature=related Eurosport commentary

    ?????????
    Last edited by plushyfan; 07-26-2012 at 09:38 AM.

  14. #194
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    I do wish people in skating like Brian Orser and Han Yan would stop going around killing other people's pets! If only because they leave a trail of victims whose only apparent recourse is to go online and interrupt otherwise reasonable discussions...

    Anyway, onto business outside the pet cemetery.

    Great choreographers from outside North America I can think of immediately include Kenji Miyamoto, who did various pieces for Daisuke Takahashi, including the Bachelorette gala number, and Stephane Lambiel, who not only have done fantastic pieces for himself, but also did Daisuke's Amélie exhibition number. I think Miyamoto is the one choreographing new competitive pieces for Plushenko? So his renown has spread beyond Japan, as it should!
    Last edited by Serious Business; 07-25-2012 at 04:09 PM.

  15. #195
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Camerlengo is also great although he is considered NA because he lives there?

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