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Thread: Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13?

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Camerlengo is also great although he is considered NA because he lives there?
    And his beautiful wife Anjelika Krylova will be added to one of the great choreographers in a year or two for sure! I hope more single skaters will go to her for their programs!

    to Kenji Miyamoto. Really looking forward to Kevin Reynolds' and Plushenko's program in the new season!

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I can't answer for Plushyfan, but I can think of some good choreographers currently outside of NA - though with so many skaters flocking to such a small number of choreographers, it is something of a challenge! Two obvious ones are Ingo Steuer (though he doesn't work with outside clients, right?) and Kenji Miyamoto. Whoever was responsible for Florent Amodio's programs before he want to Morozov did well - Zhulin? Jeannette? (I know you liked them, too)). I believe Yuzuru Hanyu worked with Bestemianova and Bobrin on his programs last season; those were good. Liudmila Vlasova is listed as the choreographer for Cappellinni and Lanotte, and they had good programs in 2011-12.
    While I didn't care for Hanyu's programs, I agree with the list you made. My question was more regarding the underlying assumption of North American bias.

  3. #198
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Really nice summary of good choreographers. But I mean another thing too. Many North-American figure skating fans, experts, commentators totally disagree with the Europeans. The best example is Plushy's Godfather program. The people went crazy for it, I think that is the most viewed male program on YouTube( in total cca more than 1million) today, but in North-America it is a bad program.
    I believe this and this are the most viewed competitive skating programs on Youtube, though neither comes close to the view count of some little girl skating to Whip My Hair. I am not sure what the most viewed program by a man is, but the most viewed Plushenko program is probably the Sex Bomb EX.

    The Godfather wasn't one of Plushy's better efforts, artistically.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    While I didn't care for Hanyu's programs, I agree with the list you made. My question was more regarding the underlying assumption of North American bias.
    There are probably some cultural preferences that come into play, but NA-based choreographers have diverse styles, so even if they do work with most of the high-profile, it's not like there's a single style being forced on viewers.

  4. #199
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I believe this and this are the most viewed competitive skating programs on Youtube, though neither comes close to the view count of some little girl skating to Whip My Hair. I am not sure what the most viewed program by a man is, but the most viewed Plushenko program is probably the Sex Bomb EX.

    The Godfather wasn't one of Plushy's better efforts, artistically.
    I talked about the men's program, the Godfather is the most viewed, check it. And I think, the Sex Bomb EX the most viewed program ever IN FIGURE SKATING's history. in totally cca 3,5-4 millions. I had a Sex Bomb version of my favorite videos, what 2.2 millions people watched it, but that is can't find today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWZtD7IUNr4

    almost one million viewer

    Yes, i think too, Plushy had more artistically program in his career, and Plushy had better performance and interpretation in Godfather program, for. ex. 2005, and 2006 Euros. But my opinion isn't change. That was great pprogram, and the NBC commentators were so ridiculous.

  5. #200
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    People click on some youtube videos by mistake also the one who top fell off was featured on many websites that brought them there so see some skaters naughty bits, nothing more. I wouldn't take those numbers as gospel.

  6. #201
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    I really don't understand why think it the people in North-America, that only few choreographers can do a good program .. I liked Liza's programs. But I didn't like her costumes. Adelina had beautiful costumes.
    It's always been a point of contention. The N. American vs European choreography styles are vastly different, and few transcend that. Culture seems to dictate who likes what (again with a few not "conforming" to their side of the world) in this case. It's why the presentation/artistic marks are SO subjective.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    It's always been a point of contention. The N. American vs European choreography styles are vastly different, and few transcend that. Culture seems to dictate who likes what (again with a few not "conforming" to their side of the world) in this case. It's why the presentation/artistic marks are SO subjective.
    Thanks Tonichelle. I never thought of this, never thought that these are the reasons, but I think you're right.

  8. #203
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    Plushyfan, the problem with Elizabeta's programs was that she didn't cover the ice. She only skated in the middle of the ice rink and only ventured to one end of the ice once in the LP. Mishin said it was because she was a little girl and couldn't cover the whole rink. When she grows up, she'll use the whole ice.

    I loved her skating at Skate Canada but compared to Suzuki's LP, Eliza's LP looked like a junior program and not a very good junior program. And yes, the outfits were inappropriate and ugly.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Plushyfan, the problem with Elizabeta's programs was that she didn't cover the ice. She only skated in the middle of the ice rink and only ventured to one end of the ice once in the LP. Mishin said it was because she was a little girl and couldn't cover the whole rink. When she grows up, she'll use the whole ice.

    I loved her skating at Skate Canada but compared to Suzuki's LP, Eliza's LP looked like a junior program and not a very good junior program. And yes, the outfits were inappropriate and ugly.
    OK. I know, I read Mishin, but I don't say about it "horrible" program. That was her first senior international debut with a junior program, yes.

  10. #205
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    DL is right in that SS, CH, TR, IN, and PE all are affected by ice coverage.

  11. #206
    Custom Title DianaSelene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    DL is right in that SS, CH, TR, IN, and PE all are affected by ice coverage.
    I understand what you are saying - yes, ice coverage affects all of the components but I would not say to a huge extent. I'll take Liza's program as an example: she had bad ice coverage as well as choreography. However, she had average transitions, good skating skills, and great interpretation and performance. Even with the ice coverage, she was able to project very well. Part of that is because Liza is a born performer and even bad programs don't make her look bad. Just think how she will shine if she finally gets great programs.

    About what Dragonlady said, Tuktamysheva's programs were not good but I wouldn't say they were terrible. She is quite young and has enough time to improve. I don't think you can compare her to Suzuki in terms of programs and components - the age difference and experience. Suzuki has been skating for a long time and knows her style and preferences as well as the choreographers that she likes. Tuktamysheva is still exploring - she is trying to find the choreographers that will give her comfortable and great programs. That is why she went to Lambiel and Dickson and Wilson. Why does everyone expect a skater coming out of juniors to immediately adjust and look like a senior skater at her first competition? And I think it is awesome when a skater can look great with a bad program. That just shows how much better he/she will be with a better one.
    Last edited by DianaSelene; 07-27-2012 at 12:27 PM.

  12. #207
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    Which is why I love it when skaters stay around awhile, because we benefit from their added savvy, artistic maturity, and understanding of how to present the skills. A skater like Michelle Kwan or Irina Slutskaya was wonderful throughout the career, from gifted youngster to mature competitor. That's nice enough. Then you also have a skater like Suzuki, who barely made a splash in her early years, and surprised us with her bountiful talent in her twenties. I'm sure Tuktamysheva will be wonderful through what I hope will be a long career. What she gives us now at this early stage is enough. Except for her outfits. If you'll pardon a little play on words, they're not nearly enough.

  13. #208
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DianaSelene View Post
    I understand what you are saying - yes, ice coverage affects all of the components but I would not say to a huge extent. I'll take Liza's program as an example: she had bad ice coverage as well as choreography. However, she had average transitions, good skating skills, and great interpretation and performance. Even with the ice coverage, she was able to project very well. Part of that is because Liza is a born performer and even bad programs don't make her look bad. Just think how she will shine if she finally gets great programs.

    About what Dragonlady said, Tuktamysheva's programs were not good but I wouldn't say they were terrible. She is quite young and has enough time to improve. I don't think you can compare her to Suzuki in terms of programs and components - the age difference and experience. Suzuki has been skating for a long time and knows her style and preferences as well as the choreographers that she likes. Tuktamysheva is still exploring - she is trying to find the choreographers that will give her comfortable and great programs. That is why she went to Lambiel and Dickson and Wilson. Why does everyone expect a skater coming out of juniors to immediately adjust and look like a senior skater at her first competition? And sometimes, skaters with And I think it is awesome when a skater can look great with a bad program. That just shows how much better he/she will be with a better one.
    I think part of it is that Liza and Adelina was hyped so much on these boards as juniors, I think people really expected them to have it all when they rose to the senior level. Certainly technically they definitely are competitive to the seniors, but definitely not artistically. And that's totally OK.

    The same applies for Gracie Gold.

  14. #209
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    On the Gracie front, Lynn Rutherford tweeted the following:

    Gracie Gold had solid short in snr ladies group B at Skate Detroit, earning 62.69 pts.(unofficial) for a Rippon Lutz, 3flip3toe & 2Axel.
    Sounds good Gracie! Her highest international SP score ever was 60.18 at Tallinn JGP. Her US Championships SP this year was 60.21.

    The Rippon Lutz is a new addition to her programs. In fact, does anyone else, male or female, do a Rippon 3Lz except Rippon?

  15. #210
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    No, they don't. Her coach was joking around and said since it's even harder for a lady, they should call it a "Gold Lutz"

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