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Thread: Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by yousunny View Post
    I am not sure whether Joshua receives funding from US skating federation or not, but some US skaters do.
    Joshua was named to the Team B envelope; therefore, he does get funding from U.S. Figure Skating. The Team B funding is the highest level of funding that he was eligible for given his results from last season.

  2. #92
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    I'm not a Chinese national, I still don't want to see a talent like Han Yan squandered. I think he's ready for seniors, and would benefit from it. I don't get what the Chinese fed is doing. It's not like they have a particularly deep men's field where only a few can get opportunities and resources.

    Ultimately, regardless of country, eligible skaters are competing in a rather paternalistic system, in which many decisions and opportunities are out of their control and disproportionate to their own achievements. I don't see why skaters being slighted and ignored under one federation makes it OK for another federation to do it to some other skater. The baseline level of acceptable treatment of these athletes isn't the very worst one.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I hope skating will survive a CoP champion like Chan. Really, he is so lacking in charisma and the sport seems to be in a nose dive since he won the championship.

    Even in Canada, there are major problems, and we all saw the tiny arena at SC last season was barely half full when Chan skated.

    If Chan is the "CoP" champion it seems the public prefers other skaters from the past regardless of their nationality.

    I am not a big Plushy fan but would not hesitate to pay to see him skate Live.
    Sadly, I don't feel the same way about Chan.
    You know, I am a Chan fan and thought he earned that win in Nice, but I do sympathize with what you're saying. It's pretty undeniable now that Chan is not connecting with a lot of audiences, maybe even most of them. If he continues to fail to connect with so many people, while winning as much as he did, that's not good for the popularity of men's skating. However, the idea that something like this would permanently depress the sport is a silly one. These things happen in all sports: a dominant competitor/team on a streak is one that most people don't like. Streaks end, new challengers who are more popular wind up succeeding. And of course, rules can change. I'm surprised they didn't seem to pass any new rules addressing Chan's much-booed win.

    I do think as it is currently done, PCScoring seriously undervalues artistry, performance ability and musicality. Perhaps, behind the scenes, judges will get some severe memos reeducating them in this regard. In which case, Chan may see his PCS drop back to Earth and Takahashi would get a serious boost (and deservedly so).

  3. #93
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    From Joshua Farris' site:

    As Josh rises in the rankings, the cost of his training also escalates, and is currently around $70,000 a year. He receives funding through the New England Amateur Skating Foundation and the US Athletic Foundation, which are both made possible through donations. Read below for information on how to make a donation to Josh's training.
    I've read this same paragraph for at least two years and I'm guessing his training costs may have gone up. And he is still a Junior. But he probably saves on his costs because he trains in his hometown.

    As I posted earlier, I envision much success for Joshua, both nationally and internationally.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by yousunny View Post
    Han Yan is two-time Chinese national Champion, youth Olympic champion and junior world champion. He has won 8 out of 11 international competitions and has been on podium 10 out of 11. If he is in US, I believe he can receive stipend or award too.

    As tax payers, Chinese Fans are just unhappy about Federation's unwise decision for holding Yan in Junior events, because Yan is the No.2 or maybe No.1 ranked male skater in China. Holding him back will hurt China's chance to get medals in competitions and may also hurt China's spots for worlds and Olympics.
    Actually, Yan is the current no.1 male Chinese skater (19th) in world standing. Song ranked 25th and Guan 47. For Season's best, Song is higher than Yan (226.75 vs 222.45). Both Song and Yan are two-time national Champion. In last season's Chinese national Winter Game (held every 4 years), Yan wins 2 out 3 disciplines (2nd in short program) while Song wins short program and total. Yan wins junior world and YOG. Song got two GP medals.

    My point is Yan's performance is very close to Song if not better. And if Yan competes in senior GPs this season, he would have similar chance to medal as Song does. But if Yan competes in JGP, he would have 90 percent chance to get three more junior golds for Chinese federation. I can understand Chinese fed.'s decision to let Yan stays junior, but cannot agree. According to Chinese fed.'s reaction to Song's GP medals, senior medal obviously weighs more than junior gold, but they just don't want to take any risk.
    Last edited by yousunny; 07-17-2012 at 07:15 PM.

  5. #95
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    re: Han Yan/Joshua Farris

    It's a calculated risk. The fact is, if they skate junior this season on the GP circuit, but have a wicked Nationals, they can go to 4CC/Worlds/WTT. However, if they skate senior, they cannot go to junior Worlds. That two-way street has closed (I hereby dub it the Ten-Han rule, given the prediliction of Denis Ten and Sui/Han to skate both. And I do think S/H in particular were a reason for this rule). The downside for the skater is that there is the risk of being seen as junior when/if they eventually get to seniors that season, but I don't think that's a longterm risk. The federation, on the other hand, preserves the opportunity to send someone to both junior and senior worlds (provided they haven't competed on the senior circuit, they can compete on the junior circuit) if necessary - preservation of JGP slots, more JW slots, etc.

  6. #96
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    ImaginaryPogue, maybe that is the reasoning of the Federations (although I'm inclined to think Farris is held back because the US has a much deeper men's field). But it's a pretty silly one. First of, it's only junior competitions, the spots for them aren't that important. Second of all, forcing a proven junior competitor like Joshua or Han to stay at that level of competition means that they take up a spot another junior skater could use. This negates the spots they already earned. It makes much more sense to let them graduate, so up and coming junior skaters from their countries could take advantage of those hard-earned spots and get a chance to succeed on their own merit.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    re: Han Yan/Joshua Farris

    It's a calculated risk. The fact is, if they skate junior this season on the GP circuit, but have a wicked Nationals, they can go to 4CC/Worlds/WTT. However, if they skate senior, they cannot go to junior Worlds. That two-way street has closed (I hereby dub it the Ten-Han rule, given the prediliction of Denis Ten and Sui/Han to skate both. And I do think S/H in particular were a reason for this rule). The downside for the skater is that there is the risk of being seen as junior when/if they eventually get to seniors that season, but I don't think that's a longterm risk. The federation, on the other hand, preserves the opportunity to send someone to both junior and senior worlds (provided they haven't competed on the senior circuit, they can compete on the junior circuit) if necessary - preservation of JGP slots, more JW slots, etc.
    I don't think this "No going back to junior" rule will be applied to 2012-2013 season.

  8. #98
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    russian skaters

    Rise:

    Tuktamisheva, Lipniskaya, Shelepen, Radionova,
    Davankova/Deputat, Stolbova/Klimov, Bazarova/Larionov,
    Ilinikh/Kazalapov, Bobrova/Solovev
    Gachinsky and Plushenko, considering his new approach.

    I think Gachinski and Lipniskaya will be very interesting this year!
    If Gachinski manages to stay on his feet as he did last year at Euro 2012, he will surpass many elite skaters including Chan but not Plushenko.
    And no one will surpass Plushenko next year and at Oly, if he manages continue to stay on his feet and be healthy.

  9. #99
    Custom Title DianaSelene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    Rise:

    Tuktamisheva, Lipniskaya, Shelepen, Radionova,
    Davankova/Deputat, Stolbova/Klimov, Bazarova/Larionov,
    Ilinikh/Kazalapov, Bobrova/Solovev
    Gachinsky and Plushenko, considering his new approach.

    I think Gachinski and Lipniskaya will be very interesting this year!
    If Gachinski manages to stay on his feet as he did last year at Euro 2012, he will surpass many elite skaters including Chan but not Plushenko.
    And no one will surpass Plushenko next year and at Oly, if he manages continue to stay on his feet and be healthy.
    OH, HOW I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT!

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I'm not a Chinese national, I still don't want to see a talent like Han Yan squandered. I think he's ready for seniors, and would benefit from it. I don't get what the Chinese fed is doing. It's not like they have a particularly deep men's field where only a few can get opportunities and resources.

    Ultimately, regardless of country, eligible skaters are competing in a rather paternalistic system, in which many decisions and opportunities are out of their control and disproportionate to their own achievements. I don't see why skaters being slighted and ignored under one federation makes it OK for another federation to do it to some other skater. The baseline level of acceptable treatment of these athletes isn't the very worst one.



    You know, I am a Chan fan and thought he earned that win in Nice, but I do sympathize with what you're saying. It's pretty undeniable now that Chan is not connecting with a lot of audiences, maybe even most of them. If he continues to fail to connect with so many people, while winning as much as he did, that's not good for the popularity of men's skating. However, the idea that something like this would permanently depress the sport is a silly one. These things happen in all sports: a dominant competitor/team on a streak is one that most people don't like. Streaks end, new challengers who are more popular wind up succeeding. And of course, rules can change. I'm surprised they didn't seem to pass any new rules addressing Chan's much-booed win.

    I do think as it is currently done, PCScoring seriously undervalues artistry, performance ability and musicality. Perhaps, behind the scenes, judges will get some severe memos reeducating them in this regard. In which case, Chan may see his PCS drop back to Earth and Takahashi would get a serious boost (and deservedly so).
    We might be going back to Salt lake city if we let booing influence rules and or judges. Besides if we are to be fair; Patrick's style is introvert most like extrovert. And in comparison lucky Kostner, overrated Witt, tiny triple Tara, Plushy, Evan and Joubert in comparison have been far more overmarked pc wise than Cahn no matter how you look at it. If we are upset about Chan's win, and I prefer Dai far more with his theatrical style and power jumps woven in so well to his program, then let us yell and scream about those other skaters who won far more controversially.

  11. #101
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    We might be going back to Salt lake city if we let booing influence rules and or judges. Besides if we are to be fair; Patrick's style is introvert most like extrovert. And in comparison lucky Kostner, overrated Witt, tiny triple Tara, Plushy, Evan and Joubert in comparison have been far more overmarked pc wise than Cahn no matter how you look at it. If we are upset about Chan's win, and I prefer Dai far more with his theatrical style and power jumps woven in so well to his program, then let us yell and scream about those other skaters who won far more controversially.
    I agree SLC's backlash was a farce. But people did indeed complain about those other wins, and some legitimate changes were implemented as a result: Lysacek's Olympic win prompted the increase in value for quad jumps. Besides those examples: Trixie Schuba's wins precipitated the devaluing and eventual elimination of figures before that. Zayak prompted the Zayak rule. Etc, etc. I should be clear that I do not want the rules or the instructions to judges changed specifically to dethrone Chan, of whom I am a fan of. At the same time, I do want artistry and audience connection to get better rewards in the IJS. If backlash against Chan can make that happen, I can live with that. And I think (and hope) Chan can make the adjustment if that actually happens, provided they don't actually send out communication citing Chan as an example of bad artistry.

  12. #102
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^ who has won controversialy besides Tara? I didnt see their names in the robbery thread.

    Sorry I m lazy to look, is Radionova entering the JGP??? The time has come?

  13. #103
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    ^^ She's supposed to. Now that all Russian wondababies enter senior circuit, Russian federation will have to put her on the list.

  14. #104
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    ^ who has won controversialy besides Tara? I didnt see their names in the robbery thread.

    Sorry I m lazy to look, is Radionova entering the JGP??? The time has come?
    I hope so, she is amazing.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I agree SLC's backlash was a farce. But people did indeed complain about those other wins, and some legitimate changes were implemented as a result: Lysacek's Olympic win prompted the increase in value for quad jumps. Besides those examples: Trixie Schuba's wins precipitated the devaluing and eventual elimination of figures before that. Zayak prompted the Zayak rule. Etc, etc. I should be clear that I do not want the rules or the instructions to judges changed specifically to dethrone Chan, of whom I am a fan of. At the same time, I do want artistry and audience connection to get better rewards in the IJS. If backlash against Chan can make that happen, I can live with that. And I think (and hope) Chan can make the adjustment if that actually happens, provided they don't actually send out communication citing Chan as an example of bad artistry.

    I (mostly) agree. Chan is my favorite skater, but if he and his advisors/coaches could not forsee the backlash from his skating the way he did at Nice, he and they need to take a course on human relations (perhaps Dale Carnegies's How to Make Friends and Influence People). The booing was still wrong and very uncouth (made me feel horrible listening to it while watching the broadcast), but it should have been forseeable. Audience reaction should never be determinative of score because that means that the audience basically determines, on any given day, the factors which determine score. But afterward, the powers that be should always be reviewing what happened, and how they can make the situation better and audience reaction like that is certainly a wake-up call for at least consideration.

    Chan did receive a proper score (I think, but I was only able to figure it out after watching and re-watching the skate to see why the judges did what they did). That having been said:

    For the good of the sport, we really have to question whether it is right that a skater can happily flush artistry down the toilet (I write that because he sure looked happy after his performance at Nice), concentrate on technical scoring provisions, and not only be confident of still winning, but actually win. That loophole need be closed. Chan can be artistic. He is as good or better than anyone at artistry when he puts his mind to it. He chose not to be, or seemingly even to care, at Nice. He will have no trouble adjusting. (He is the best!)

    But do close the loophole. I want to see PC bring out his artistry.

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