Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Who will rise and who will fall in 2012-13?

noidont

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Haven't read the whole post. Not sure what people are arguing about, but it's silly to say having rich parents is an "unfair advantage." Han Yan's training costs might be sponsored by the Chinese fed and he might have rich parents (I don't know anything about that), but he definitely is good enough to qualify for it based on his results. It's not so easy to make the Chinese national team. How that has anything to do with Josh Farris is beyond me. I mean, the world isn't fair. Isabella Tobias is rich enough to get the best partner she can get. I also happen to think Han Yan has more natural talent than both Farris and Brown, both of whom, mind I say, has very little chance to get to Sochi, whereas Han Yan is a shoo-in at this point. Chinese taxpayers pay for worse things than supporting an Olympic athlete.
That being said, Yan is definitely not the fed's favorite skater, or otherwise they would send him to senior GP. That kid has shown some discipline issue the fed doesn't like. Free money isn't free. Certain things you can't even buy with money.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
When a federation pays for everything, they call the shots and the skaters do what they're told or they're out of the program. If you want to skate and the federation says no, you don't skate. Katia Grinkov was nearly tossed from the Russian program because they didn't think she was talented enough. She had to beg for her opportunity and she lived in fear they would change their minds. You don't pick you own coach, the federation assigns you to a coach and many of these decisions are based on politics. Japanese skaters can only go to coaches approved by their federation.

In North America, you pay your own way, but if you are successful, you will get a decent amount of funding from your federation. Expenses for international assignments are covered too. If Skate Canada was paying Patrick's expenses, he would not be training in Colorado. He would be in Barrie at the Mariposa Club. I would rather have a situation where the skaters and/or their parents are free to make their own choices based on what works best for the skater.

I never thought of it quite that way. I always felt a bit sad that here in the U.S. families either had to be rich or had to make sacrifices to allow their kid to keep going in an elite sports career, whereas in other countries, athletes were subsidized. But you're right: a country that pays its athletes' expenses is going to want to call the shots. This might matter less in, say, track and field, where a good coach needs only a few easily diagnosed skills, and one or two good coaches can train all the best athletes in one government-approved training center. But that doesn't always work in skating, where Paul Wylie might flourish with the Scotvolds while Jenny Kirk might nearly drown. And with subsidized skating, there might be mistakes and oversights in deciding who deserves training: I shuddered with horror at your point that Katia was almost dropped by the Soviet federation. (I wonder whether any other amazing skaters got frozen out of the program.) With the private system, you get an athlete like YuNa Kim, and she and her mother somehow sensed that they needed to be (a) out of Korea, (b) in Canada, and (c) with a previously untested coach who would magically be the one to channel her genius into championship material. Or Patrick Chan, who somehow sensed that the best combination of environment and training would be in the Colorado Rockies. I begin to see your point, Dragonlady. This system may not be for everyone in every country around the world, but it certainly has moments where it works in North America.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Haven't read the whole post. Not sure what people are arguing about, but it's silly to say having rich parents is an "unfair advantage." Han Yan's training costs might be sponsored by the Chinese fed and he might have rich parents (I don't know anything about that), but he definitely is good enough to qualify for it based on his results. It's not so easy to make the Chinese national team. How that has anything to do with Josh Farris is beyond me. I mean, the world isn't fair. Isabella Tobias is rich enough to get the best partner she can get. I also happen to think Han Yan has more natural talent than both Farris and Brown, both of whom, mind I say, has very little chance to get to Sochi, whereas Han Yan is a shoo-in at this point. Chinese taxpayers pay for worse things than supporting an Olympic athlete.
That being said, Yan is definitely not the fed's favorite skater, or otherwise they would send him to senior GP. That kid has shown some discipline issue the fed doesn't like. Free money isn't free. Certain things you can't even buy with money.

Han Yan is maybe a more talented JUMPER than Brown and Farris, but in terms of artistry, spins, and expression I'd say Brown and Farris are way ahead of Yan at this point. Yan has good speed, power, and SS but I will admit I don't totally understand why his PCS are so high, and he definitely needs a personality injection.

Anyways, in terms of Sochi, I'd say both Farris and Brown (3a mastery pending) have a realistic shot. I mean, Abbott will probably be on the team, but he's so inconsistent that even that isn't a given, Weir, we'll see how his comeback goes, it didn't work for Sasha after all, and then there's the likes of Rippon, Miner, Dornbush, Mahbanoozadeh but Josh and Jason really have as good a shot as any of those guys IMO, none of them have a reliable competition quad yet, Josh matched the SB of Miner and Rippon at JW and Jason wasn't far off even without any 3a, and we saw the kind of marks Armin and Ricky got last season...

Idk, I'd say the Sochi team for men is really up in the air at this point. Abbott is a likely member, but he's Abbott, so there are no guarantees. If there's 3 spots, Josh and/or Jason could definitely make it, but in terms of getting 3 spots in the first place, the field is deep so someone will really have to step up between now and Nationals for the team to have a good shot at doing that...
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Weir, we'll see how his comeback goes, it didn't work for Sasha after all
yes but unlike Sasha, Johnny is coming back BEFORE the Olympic season to get back in teh swing of things, so he has the upper hand on that competition.

and then there's the likes of Rippon, Miner, Dornbush, Mahbanoozadeh
AND MESSING!!! :rock:
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I wouldn't compare Weir to Cohen.

Weir seems very serious about returning to competition and had been training for months before declaring himself for the GP this year, a full season before Sochi. That seems like a full commitment to his goal.

Cohen waited until the summer before Vancouver to start training seriously, and due to injury, she dropped out of both her GP events. She had to debut her programs at Nationals and few were surprised when she failed to make the cut.
 

Victura

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
When a federation pays for everything, they call the shots and the skaters do what they're told or they're out of the program. If you want to skate and the federation says no, you don't skate. Katia Grinkov was nearly tossed from the Russian program because they didn't think she was talented enough. She had to beg for her opportunity and she lived in fear they would change their minds. You don't pick you own coach, the federation assigns you to a coach and many of these decisions are based on politics. Japanese skaters can only go to coaches approved by their federation.

When did this happen with Katia? Before she was paired up with Sergei? I remember she wasn't particularly successful when she was very young when she did singles because she was never a strong jumper.

I definitely see your point though. I recently listened to Manleywoman's podcast with Sasha Fadeev, where he said that the pressure within the Soviet system was much higher than the pressure in North America since the federation had certain leverage in affecting other parts of one's lifestyle, with regards to housing, the ability to get an education, etc., and because of that, skaters had to agree to whatever the federation wanted them to do. Of course, this was back in the Soviet days, and I'm sure it's not quite like that in Japan or even Russia or China nowadays, but still.

He also made the point that in NA, succeeding has more to do with one's will, though I would add one's financial capabilities too. The downside to being able to have more control over your own training and skating is that you have to be the one to fund all of it. In the end, there are advantages and disadvantages to both, and neither system is perfect.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I don't know whether Chinese skating has changed since the days when Shen and Zhao were training, but it was very grueling, Spartan, and restricted at that point. The economic improvements in China may have resulted in changes for the better. I remember reading that the skaters weren't allowed to date anyone. At that point, Hongbo Zhao was in his late twenties, and I can't imagine any American skater, or even any Russian skater for that matter, being told that he wasn't allowed to have a social life at all at that age. (Try to envision anyone telling that to Plushenko, or to Oksana Grishchuk.) I can see that kind of restriction with fifteen-year-old gymnasts, but not in men who would be old enough to run for the U.S. House of Representatives (and who, incidentally, are strong enough to hold a full-grown woman aloft on one hand).
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
When did this happen with Katia? Before she was paired up with Sergei? I remember she wasn't particularly successful when she was very young when she did singles because she was never a strong jumper.

She wrote about it in "My Sergei". They didn't think she'd even make the skating school because she was not the right size starting out as a tot. Then she wasn't very strong in her elements. Even after they paired her with Sergei there was talk that she would be replaced. It would have been skating's loss. I think she wrote about finding out that Sergei'd put his foot down and said if they switched his partner (even though at that point he wasn't not interested in her at all romantically) he'd be done with skating... I could be making that last part up. It's been eons since I've read the book.
 

Gliding on ice

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I used to think Patrick needed to work on artistry and audience connection, but after I saw Han Yan, Patrick looked like an artist and I would rather watch him with 3 falls than a clean Yan. If this Yan is the “future star” as bragged by his Chinese fans, then I’m worried about skating’s future.

If Yan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. There is no need to use hearsay evidence and start bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.


If you look at Joshua, the USFS is not paying for all his expenses, but he still has to obey his fed’s decision.

If you really feel that Joshua will be at a huge disadvantage because his training expense is not covered by the USFS, maybe you should visit Josh's personal website to find out how you can make a financial contribution to his skating expense. I am sure your effort will be MUCH MORE appreciated this way.
 
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phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
If Yan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. There is no need to use hearsay evidence and start bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.

If you really feel that Joshua will be at a huge disadvantage because his training expense is not covered by the USFS, maybe you should visit Josh's personal website to find out how you can make a financial contribution to his skating expense. I am sure your effort will be MUCH MORE appreciated this way.

Hmmmm. The comments were fairly made and gave us all, including us fans of Yan, pause . . . for consideration. Forgetting about the economics and the politics, I wish Yan was moving up to seniors. It is overdue based on his talent, which is great. It would also force him to improve his artistry.

As well, Lakeside's comments should remind us all that the skating world, even though those who follow it and like to think so, does not live in a vacuum. I have heard similar sentiments more generally expressed many times to believe their legitimacy of heart. But even outside of China, in other countries, I often wonder about some skaters whether they had been born in a different country or under different circumstances whether they would have gone farther, or alternatively would we have never seen their talent at all.

Although I kind of now just take whatever I can get through watching the sport, accepting that life is just like that, every once and a while, I have to wonder why it appears that a federation goes out of its way to make a blunderheaded move, more likely to hurt or punish a skater than help him/her. This is in the case where the skater has made it far enought that his/her talent/potential is undeniable. In the case of Yan, I really feel that here. If China wants to help Yan become better, then he should be advanced. If China doesn't care, and really considers the sport the domain of imperialist pigs, then it can just continue to screw him blue. But going half way with the kid seems kind of strange and a smack-down.

No federation is perfect, and there is politics, even in Japan where most of us would acknowledge that the model is probably the best for getting the best skaters to skate their best. Even here, it is acknowledged when we write of coaches, that their ability to politic affects the scores of the skaters. And the decisions of the federation regarding coaching we (me too) tend to criticize, but, through its faults, it is pretty amazing and fantastic for what it has accomplished, and it has enough integrity to want its skaters to do well at the highest levels.

If Yan was in Japan, he would be moved up on the basis of merit, not held back on the basis of politics. But China is a different place, with different values and priorities. Rightly or wrongly, it is out of that context that Yan has to gain entry into the international forum to compete. The discussion here, coming from both sides, on every aspect has been really informative and wise. But the most important aspect that, with skating and its economic barriers to entry, will always have problems like this. Open discussions are important because they help.

Now, changing gears here, now that it has been confirmed by the publication of the interview with the all-time great Kurt Browning that he was responsible for the choreography of Hanyu's exhibition skate that many people did not like (because it was so much Kurt and not enough Hanyu), now with the skating talent being at such a high level for the elite skaters, it has to be considered as to who will rise next year and who will kind of fall, that the choreography will play a role, not just for the skaters but the choreographers. If one of the top males skaters (who are all changing their choreographers) has a big fall in performance next year, it could be that the choreographer, not the talent of the skater, will be the big factor. (In this regard, I will be most especially interested to see whether Hanyu will get choreography good enough to match his talent and spirit. If Wilson is doing it, this will be his litmus test.)
 

lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Chinese taxpayers pay for worse things
The fact that Chinese taxpayers are made to pay for worse things does not mean they should also be forced to pay for this one. Murder is worse than stealing someone’s wallet, but that doesn’t make theft right.

Han Yan is maybe a more talented JUMPER than Brown and Farris, but in terms of artistry, spins, and expression I'd say Brown and Farris are way ahead of Yan at this point. Yan has good speed, power, and SS but I will admit I don't totally understand why his PCS are so high, and he definitely needs a personality injection.
I agree on everything else here except that I think Yan is not that much more talented in terms of jumps than Joshua. First of all Yan’s jumps are not that consistent. I’ve seen them live at JGPF last year, and Yan’s jumps did not have much height, although they covered much distance. When Joshua lands his 4T, there will not be much difference between their jumps.

As most other users on this forum could tell, yousunny was just trying to express the frustrations of Chinese figure skating fans about the Fed's decision to let Yan stay junior for another year. What is this whole discussion of Chinese taxpayers and "second-generation rich" about?
Since you are one of Yan’s hardcore Chinese fans, I don’t have a problem when people defend their favorite, but please read yousunny’s post more carefully. She did not post “As Han Yan’s fans, we are unhappy…” She posted “As tax payers…” So I replied to her about Chinese taxpayers. Am I not allowed to reply to a certain point made in a post?

I used to think Patrick needed to work on artistry and audience connection, but after I saw Han Yan, Patrick looked like an artist and I would rather watch him with 3 falls than a clean Yan. If this Yan is the “future star” as bragged by his Chinese fans, then I’m worried about skating’s future.
If Yan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. There is no need to use hearsay evidence and start bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.
I am a fan of Patrick Chan. I don’t like how some posters blame him and I would argue with them, but I would never tell anyone “If Chan is not your cup of tea, go ahead and watch performances from the skaters you like. Stop bashing him on a public forum like Golden Skate.” Since Chan, Yan, and other skaters are currently competing and audience pay for watching competitions, I believe all figure skating fans have right to watch performances of all of these skaters and say what they like and what they don’t like about these skaters. I respect different opinions as long as they’re not biased and there’s no name calling.

Btw by your logic, if my post is not your cup of tea, go ahead and read other posts you like. You can always use the “Ignore” button instead of wasting your time to tell me what not to post and what not to watch. ;) Just a suggestion though. You don’t need to adopt it if you don’t want to.

If you really feel that Joshua will be at a huge disadvantage because his training expense is not covered by the USFS, maybe you should visit Josh's personal website to find out how you can make a financial contribution to his skating expense. I am sure your effort will be MUCH MORE appreciated this way.
Ahhh! Now you’re telling me how should I spend my money and my effort. In one post you’re telling me what to do and what not to do three times? :confused: I wish I were born in a rich family like Yan so I can have a lot of extra money to do whatever I want, but I’m not that lucky. I have to study hard to get scholarships and work long hours on the weekends to pay for my tuition and fees + Universal Studio + competition tickets. My parents don’t buy me all those luxury items either. Yes, we live in an unfair world.

If one of the top males skaters (who are all changing their choreographers) has a big fall in performance next year, it could be that the choreographer, not the talent of the skater, will be the big factor. (In this regard, I will be most especially interested to see whether Hanyu will get choreography good enough to match his talent and spirit. If Wilson is doing it, this will be his litmus test.)
I read from the 2012-2013 Programs by Discipline thread that Yuzru Hanyu’s SP is "Parisienne Walkways" by Gary Moore choreographed by Jeffry Buttle. I don’t know how’s the program since there are no online videos now, but I must say, I don’t like this music and can’t think of any skater who will look good skating to it.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8Br4cohiM

Peter Tchernyshev looked great skating to anything IMO. Here he and Naomi Lang look great skating to Parisienne Walkways by Gary Moore

Yes but Peter wears (orr at least in 05 wore) too much cologne... he's one of those guys that seems to bathe in it... he sat behind us during the ice dance events at nationals... found out a few weeks later that it was most likely the reason I had such intense headaches as that's one of my triggers. BLAH.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
At least that's better than a certain French Olympic medalwinner who didn't seem to bathe or wear deodorant while skating barechested. At one event I sat in the front row and was met with a blast of phew each time he skated by.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
At least that's better than a certain French Olympic medalwinner who didn't seem to bathe or wear deodorant while skating barechested. At one event I sat in the front row and was met with a blast of phew each time he skated by.

*lovely* though BO does not trigger my migraines... it's perfume/chemical that does it for me... (not that BO is any more pleasant to smell though lol)
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
At least that's better than a certain French Olympic medalwinner who didn't seem to bathe or wear deodorant while skating barechested. At one event I sat in the front row and was met with a blast of phew each time he skated by.

Now that's what I call a scented candeloro. ;)
 

noidont

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
I don't know whether Chinese skating has changed since the days when Shen and Zhao were training, but it was very grueling, Spartan, and restricted at that point. The economic improvements in China may have resulted in changes for the better. I remember reading that the skaters weren't allowed to date anyone. At that point, Hongbo Zhao was in his late twenties, and I can't imagine any American skater, or even any Russian skater for that matter, being told that he wasn't allowed to have a social life at all at that age. (Try to envision anyone telling that to Plushenko, or to Oksana Grishchuk.) I can see that kind of restriction with fifteen-year-old gymnasts, but not in men who would be old enough to run for the U.S. House of Representatives (and who, incidentally, are strong enough to hold a full-grown woman aloft on one hand).

Rules are there to be broken. Shen and Zhao certainly didn't start dating as late as they claimed. And Han Yan definitely dates around lol. For some reason Chinese narratives tend to be over dramatic about making sacrifice. It's satisfying to some people.
To Lakeside though, for what reason do you assume the Chinese taxpayers are unwilling to pay for Han Yan's training costs? I'm guessing we just don't know. Actually, maybe the US taxpayers wouldn't so much object to paying for Josh Farris as well. Maybe the problem lies with the U.S. system's inability to fund their top skaters properly, which is definitely not Han Yan's fault...
I think Josh Farris has great potential. I also happen to think Jason Brown's so called artistry is overrated. Han Yan however has something special - fantastic skating skill COP likes. I'm not even that much of a fan of his skating. Just stating a fact.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Ahhh! Now you’re telling me how should I spend my money and my effort. In one post you’re telling me what to do and what not to do three times? :confused: I wish I were born in a rich family like Yan so I can have a lot of extra money to do whatever I want, but I’m not that lucky. I have to study hard to get scholarships and work long hours on the weekends to pay for my tuition and fees + Universal Studio + competition tickets. My parents don’t buy me all those luxury items either. Yes, we live in an unfair world.

I don't want to get in the middle of your argument, but this statement of yours is very impressive indeed. Very few people have the self-discipline to do what you're doing. Best of luck to you! You'll be an asset to any career you decide to pursue.
 

SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
The problem is that if Joshua wins the JGPF and the junior worlds, would he be eligible for the Team A envelope?

No.

2012-13 Team Envelope Criteria

Envelope A:
•Placements 1st-10th at the 2012 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
•2012 U.S. National Senior Champion
•Placements 1st-3rd at the ISU Senior Grand Prix Final in the 2011-12 season
•2012 ISU Four Continents Champion
 
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