08-03-2012, 12:38 AM
08-03-2012, 12:59 AM
Like subtlety in ice dancing
"[Gabrielle Douglas] performed beautifully today," Komova said during the post-meet interviews. "And I believe that she earned her gold medal."
That's the exact quote.
Well, I made it all the way through NBC's gymnastics coverage this time! And it wasn't totally useless. The NBC commentators did point out, all gossip-like, that Mustafina shrugged off her coach's consoling pat after she did her beam routine (the one where she fell off). I think I saw that on the European feed, it just never registered that's what it was. She wanted some time alone, and she's also not afraid to say no to her coach. I respect her for that.
The NBC commentators also let on what seems to be the strategy for Aly Raisman and her coach: she'd do the same floor routine she did at the team finals, get the same score, which would be enough to put her over Mustafina. But of course, no two routine is the same, and judges don't judge the same. They gave her a lower score, enough to tie her with Mustafina, who won on the tie-breaker. This explains why Raisman didn't put in that front layout that would've won her the bronze had she done it without going out of bounds. And if she did go out of bounds, she'd still have been in 4th place anyway. Hindsight is 20/20, and that's painful clarity. That maybe why Raisman looked rather pained after finding out her final placement. I hope Aly doesn't take it to heart, though. It's only a bronze! At the floor finals, where I'm sure the front layout is going back in, she could win a gold!
Unlike the European feed, NBC, of course, showed Gabby's immediate reaction to finding out she won. She hugged her coach in tearful, overwhelmed joy. Then they cut to Komova, who also hugged her coach, but out of seeming despair and the need for consolation. It was a very dramatic and poignant contrast. I also noticed that Mustafina may have been feeling a bit awkward. She seems to be very happy about her bronze win (with all her injuries, getting on that podium is achievement enough for Mustafina, I bet). But she didn't want to seem too happy when her teammate was so sad.
I was also pleasantly surprised that NBC not only showed the 4 routines of each of the top 4 gymnasts, but threw a few ones of Deng Linlin. Although, it is a bit weird considering Linlin only wound up in 6th, and I don't think NBC showed anything of 5th place finisher Sandra Raluca Izbasa.
Last edited by Serious Business; 08-03-2012 at 01:02 AM.
08-03-2012, 01:36 AM
Gabby Douglas did the best that she could do, so a big congrats to her.
I'm not an expert either but I think Viktoria Komova should have won. I think it's her style and her look on all four events that I prefer. Douglas' floor routine looks juniorish in comparison.
On another note, had Jordyn Weiber competed in the all-around, she probably would have won the bronze.
08-03-2012, 04:35 AM
I don't know what to make of Deng Linlin. She looks to be about ten years old. She's apparently twenty? Okay.
Mustafina reminds me a bit of Khorkina, who would scold (I think I recall) her coach. We in the U.S. grew up with tales of domineering Eastern bloc coaches who ruled their submissive gymnasts with an iron hand, and so seeing Khorkina arguing with her coach a refreshing contradiction.
08-03-2012, 08:04 AM
Bona Fide Member
I don't think there is any way in the present scoring system to take things like that into account. Is that right? As I understand it, the only thing that counts is the difficulty of the tricks you attempt, and then there are deductions for mistakes. (?)
Originally Posted by Bruin714
For the once-every=four-years fan, I think that gymnastics has the same problem as figure skating does. It is not possible for the audience to know why the winner won.
In this contest, it came down to the last floor routine by Komova. The announcer said something like, she needs a 15.385 to win. She performed perfectly. Did her routine deserve a 15.3 (she lost) or a 15.4 (she won)? There is no way for a casual fan to have an opinion, no matter how much that fan may like one performance or the other.
08-03-2012, 08:21 AM
Not to argue against you, Bruin714, but to me, in a sport where almost everyone looks like a child, and no one does floor routines that really express the music (they have no time--they're always running at top speed or flipping themselves like pancakes), I didn't notice that one athlete was any more or less juniorish than another. Certainly Komova has some elegance on the floor, but no one is a Joannie Rochette or YuNa Kim.
But as for the judging system, I'm not sure I've ever understood why one gymnast wins and another doesn't. The points differences are often even tinier than the athletes. I'm just happy when "my" gymnast wins and disappointed when he/she doesn't. Last night, I think I would have been happy either way, but I can't deny that I'm hugely thrilled that Gabby won.
08-03-2012, 09:39 AM
I think the scoring is generally easier to understand in gymnastics vs skating. At least with gymnastics, they state what the highest possible value is and then deduct points. It also seems like there is a collaborative review of the faults since the scores take longer when there are more issues to review and they use video review a lot. The NBC commentator has pointed out bent knees in the air, legs that aren't held close together in the air. All these little details that less experienced viewers don't see except in slo-mo. All we really notice is how hard it seems, amplitude and speed and the landing. Overall, I think it's easier to gain an overall understanding of gymnastics scoring vs skating. Total points from all apparatus wins - that's the only thing the two scoring systems have in common IMHO.
Originally Posted by Mathman
08-03-2012, 09:56 AM
Bona Fide Member
I am actually not in love with Komova's routine. Her teammates are actually more highly regarded on floor, although obviously Komova's changing that. Here's Russia's Ksensia Afansyeva. She's the reigning world champ on floor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkyZFma8e_A
Originally Posted by Olympia
And I can easily see the judges throwing Russia a bone and rewarded Afansyeva gold if she as a little more difficulty there, just like they did at worlds.
Last edited by bekalc; 08-03-2012 at 10:12 AM.
08-03-2012, 09:57 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
One thing that you can notice, though, is what the base value of the routines are:
Scores are here:
Difficulty scores on floor. The difficult is what was actually performed, not what was planned:
Raisman 6.3 (this is with her hardest trick replaced with an easier one)
Execution (this would include style issues like pointed toes, etc)
None of the three had any penalties (fell, stepped out of bounds, went over time)
The total score is Difficulty + Execution + Penalties.
Raisman (2nd overall) 15.133
Komova (3rd overall) 15.100
Douglas (4th overall) 15.033
Mustafina (6th overall) 14.60
Why we didn't get to see Izbasa on this apparatus (she was in 1st) is NBC being idiots.
08-03-2012, 10:18 AM
That does make things clear, Doris. Thanks. And I noticed that Tim and Elfi did call attention to the way, for instance, Douglas's legs were straight and together on the vault and someone else's were crossed in midair. That does help us see how the components go together to create the overall score.
08-03-2012, 10:42 AM
I have been watching gymnastics for a few years now and am pretty good with calculating scores - in gymnastics it is actually easier to count the score that a gymnast should receive than in figure skating. The reason why I personally thought Komova should have won was also because of that floor which was the best in her life. That girl just had surgery two months ago and had to go against a girl who was injury-free.
Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
But anyways, scores are calculated with a Difficulty score and Execution score. If your difficulty score is 6.0 (life Komova), your max score is 16.000 On floor tumbling passes, every small hop that you take after you finish a pass is a tenth off, every big hop is three tenths off. If you fall out of a spin (meaning you don't finish the rotation), you get about a three tenths deduction as well. One step out of bounds is one tenth and two feet are two tenths.
However, if you finish a tumbling pass without any hops (dead on) there should be no deductions. You can count the deduction as you watch a routine. Komova was dead on at almost every tumbling pass. I think she took one extra step. And she did not do a spin as well as she could have. She also finished low on one of the tumbling passes. In total, she should have gotten 0.6 in deductions giving her a 15.4 on floor. But the judges gave her a 15.1 and took 0.3 that just were not there. They kind of vanished in the air. Douglas's scoring was correct because she took more steps than Komova and fell out of a spin. She got a 15.033. Now, look at the difference. If Komova got that extra 0.3that deserved, she would have won.
But of course, the judges sometimes see stuff that I don't and the other way around. Yeah, right. My vision is not that bad. In other words, yes, you were correct in saying that Komova had a better floor than Douglas.
08-03-2012, 11:48 AM
Like subtlety in ice dancing
The judges also take points off on floor for tiny form breaks in leg line, separation, and things like not having ceiling touching height in the tumbles. Floor, being so long and filled with so many elements, tends to rack up tons of deductions when anything falls slightly short of the impossible perfection the judges have in mind. If McKayla Maroney and Kohei Uchimura's perfect vaults didn't get 10s in executions, and the judges found so much to deduct even in those split seconds, Komova's floor exercise, as amazingly pulled together as it was, was not going to get the score she needed to win. As it was, this is the highest floor score Komova has ever gotten in her career (except at something called the 2010 Central Region competition where she got a 16.4!? on floor). 15.359+ was just out of Komova's reach with her attempted difficulty.
08-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Bona Fide Member
If your going to penalize KOMOVA for tiny form breaks what about people Raisman? There's a ton of wrong things there with Aly... And even Douglas too. Komova's routine was judged .2 tenths better.
Originally Posted by Serious Business
That's the problem and why gymnasts like Uchimura, Komova, and Maroney on vault get penalized. They do so many things right form wise. That they get nick picked on the little things. Douglas though is by far the best gymnast in the US.
That though is the problem with vault. Its one skill, less things to deduct. So it gets scored ridiculously higher than the other events... Its absolutely frustrating... And then they over score the harder ones. I believe Raisman's Amanar with its large steps got a higher execution score than Mustafina's DTY which was well stuck.
I will say this too, Komova hasn't competed much on floor in the last two years. At YOG she did get a 14.9 for a routine with lower difficulty. The girl has been in and out of ankle surgery for the last two years. Last year when she came to worlds, she had only 3 months of training, and I think thats why she struggled a bit on beam/floor. But people started calling her a headcase/ saying she had no fight etc. And I thnk an impression came that she was weak on floor...
Komova hadn't competed internationally on floor since! Except for maybe a minor competition where she actually got a 14.9 for some stuck landings. She had an ankle surgery in Jan, so she only did bars/beam and once again was shaky on beam.. People started calling her a headcase some more. Her coach pretty much said she's not a headcaes, she just hasn't had much time to train. There's clips of her doing floor at Russian cup which was a bit shaky but once again, she was just competiting floor. Komova sticking landings like that is something she use to do-as a Junior.
Apparently in training Komova didn't look all that strong on floor seemed to be lacking some in endurance... I think the lack of the ability to really compete the Amanar hurt her in the AA and I think it hurt her patterson.. Obviously though Komova now that she's healthier with more training is much stronger everywhere.
I think Komova was just a gymnast completely written off. Someone who peaked as a Junior.. Something tells me that we may even see more on floor from this girl next year. So Komova's floor was shocking but part of it was because nobody saw her on floor much.
I just can't help feeling if this girl had a few more months-things would be different...The Amanar would have been more solid, the passes/form even better... The Patterson more solid too with more experience... The best thing about these games is that Komova's starting to look like the gymnast she was in 2010... She still doesn't have that consistency, but it will come.
I think too given those ankle issues, she really doesn't try to stick passes a lot in training etc. I got the feeling in prelims she wasn't trying that hard there either. Trying to save the stamina... Because thats another thing people were concerned about with her.
Last edited by bekalc; 08-03-2012 at 12:16 PM.
08-03-2012, 02:00 PM
That girl is not Raisman who gets high scores with terrible form and split jumps (that she does not get deducted on as much as she should). Komova was - yes - perfect on all her non-tumbling elements except for tenth on a spin. Yes, she deserved that and 15.4 just like Maroney deserved that perfect 16.5. Komova did not have tiny form breaks in leg line and separation. Instead she almost gets the same execution score that Douglas did with visible errors. I have been watching gymnastics for 12 years non-stop and know quite a bit about it.
Originally Posted by Serious Business
08-03-2012, 05:35 PM
Gadfly and Bon Vivant
I've almost entirely boycotted gymnastics since the disgraceful Sidney decision. So I won't go too far into this except to say:
a) it seems to have been a close decision (where partisans of the silver medalist can mount a defence for a different result and partisans of the gold medalist can mount a coherent defense of the results).
b) such contests are very good for a discipline ("what if" scenarios are always good for a sport, slam dunks - not so much). I still think Silivas should have won in 1988 (favorite floor evah!)
c) looking at the youtube stuff available I freakin' love Douglas's uneven bars routine more than any gymnast since Marcia Frederick (Komova not as much though it's pretty great).
d) let the would've shouldv'e could've arguments rage on!