Men's and Ladies' Gymnastics | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Men's and Ladies' Gymnastics

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
You can't blame the CoP for the bad economy that killed off the Tom Collins tour.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
You can't blame the CoP for the bad economy that killed off the Tom Collins tour.


Of course many factors can be considered but why do they feel more like weak excuses to me?

Why do you think so many track stars are getting a free pass regarding the doping?
The sport is in trouble and needs heroes ands stars.

More scandals will do it irreparable harm.

Scandals....why does that word ring a bell? :)

And who said launching a 40 city tour in this economy would be easy?

Let's face it, in any economy a good product is needed to succeed.

And CoP skating ain't it.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think the biggest Champions on Ice tour was 2002, following the Olympics. 93 cities. The skaters were exhausted.

Not every skater did every show. As I recall, Sarah Hughes, as Olympic champion, skated last in the shows at the beginning of the tour that she participated in. When Sarah dropped out, they put Michelle in that spot (Fields of Gold). But Alexei Yagudin said, hey, wait a minute. i'm a gold medal winner, too. Michelle only got bronze. So they let Yagudin skate last for a good portion of the tour.

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/events/coi02/coi_open_judy.jpg

More Champions on Ice, 2002 :)

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/trophies/winners/PRT2002.jpg
 

MissIzzy

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Um, Gymnastics is currently operating under its own version of CoP. One that the NBC commentators express confusion over and people tweet is destroying the sport(they also tweet that the Russians are overscored). Does anyone even post scoring protocols online?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, the gymnastics CoP is easier to understand that the figure skating sytem. (Not that I understand it, but anyway...)

What I got out of the commentary was that the difficulty score is predetermined by the tricks that you chose to include in your routine. So many points for a half-back-pikey-double-sommersault, etc. If you omit or fail to execute a planned element, the difficulty score is reduced accordingly.

This is sort of like the total element score in skating, but not really. In skating you do not have to do the tricks that you plan, you can substitute a later jump for one missed earlier, etc.

Then the Execution score. I guess this is sort of like GOE, except instead of giving bonus points for meeting certain bullets or for doing an element with extra flair, the only thing that counts is deductions for specific errors. One point for a fall, three tenths for having your legs come apart when they are supposed to be together, and like that.

There does not seem to be anything in gymnastics corresponding to program components. No one seems to care if the program as a whole is well-constructed, or if they pay attention to the music on the floor, or anything like that. The idea seems to be, do the tricks, get the score.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
To me, the gymnastics CoP is easier to understand that the figure skating sytem. (Not that I understand it, but anyway...)

What I got out of the commentary was that the difficulty score is predetermined by the tricks that you chose to include in your routine. So many points for a half-back-pikey-double-sommersault, etc. If you omit or fail to execute a planned element, the difficulty score is reduced accordingly.

This is sort of like the total element score in skating, but not really. In skating you do not have to do the tricks that you plan, you can substitute a later jump for one missed earlier, etc.

Then the Execution score. I guess this is sort of like GOE, except instead of giving bonus points for meeting certain bullets or for doing an element with extra flair, the only thing that counts is deductions for specific errors. One point for a fall, three tenths for having your legs come apart when they are supposed to be together, and like that.

There does not seem to be anything in gymnastics corresponding to program components. No one seems to care if the program as a whole is well-constructed, or if they pay attention to the music on the floor, or anything like that. The idea seems to be, do the tricks, get the score.

The scoring for gymnastics is alot easier for me to follow and makes more sense.

First off we are told the value of the routine.....and let's face it, 15.5 is easier to relate to than 153.

Commentary helps those like me who might know what they like but are not knowledgeable enough to always know what was good or bad about the routine.

So the 15.5 routine was pretty well executed. We are told a tenth off here and a tenth off for the step on the landing.

The score comes up and we see a 15.3 and everybody has a good idea of what happened and WHY.

In skating it is just a colossal mess to figure out why Evan beat Plushenko by a tenth of a point when the scores are up in the 260's.

The code seems to fit gymnastics pretty well but for skating I find it lacks clarity.

To see a skater as great as Chan get booed for skating the system to near perfection is a terrible sign.
It shows what the fans who care enough to attend a major Live event think about the CoP.

For crying out loud, fix the PCS already and stop trying to diminish the importance and tradition of great artistry and expression in skating.
 
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skfan

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
re #265 by mm

1 point deduction for a fall, when a good gymnastic program scores approximately 16 to 18 points.

in a typical senior skating program worth about 100 points and up, a fall is worth only 1 point, with the skater receiving partial credit for rotation. is it so difficult to grasp why gymnastics scores make more sense to a watcher?


edited to make my post fit the higher level of discourse practiced here at GS :laugh:
 
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Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
The reason the COP is simpler for gymnastics than figure skating is because gymnastics is a lot simpler than figure skating! Gymnastics routines are much briefer and made up of predefined sets of moves. Not only are the moves, and the configurations thereof much simpler, but the way their execution can be scored is much simpler, too. Artistic gymnastics has a pretty strict and narrow aesthetic that all gymnasts must hew to to limit deductions: pointed toes, uncrossed legs during twists, straight arms on the bar, etc. There is very much an established version of the ultimate gymnast and how s/he is supposed to perform. Of course, all that came to life in Kohei Uchimura, who pretty much exemplifies what the FIG COP looks for.

Figure skating, on the other hand, has vastly more possibilities in the construction of routines, multiplied by even more ways to perform them well! And most importantly of all, unlike artistic gymnastics, interpretation of music, storytelling and emotional projection is a huge part of the score in figure skating, whereas in artistic gymnastics, that is only a tiny (and from what I can see, irrelevant) part of women's floor exercise.

It's little use in comparing the scoring system for one to the other. Artistic gymnastics, by nature, is much easier to quantify (though, of course, it's just as difficult if not more difficult than figure skating for the athletes). Figure skating's COP, as detailed as it is, can only achieve an approximation in containing all the possible details in a skating routine. So yes, figure skating's COP is going to be a more complicated and harder to understand, but that doesn't make it better or worse than artistic gymnastics' COP, because they're measuring very different things.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Which is why I kind of let go of gymnastics, I think. I realized how much had changed when I looked back at Olga Korbut's floor routine from the 1972 Olympics. There was a reason for the music then.

If skating goes in that direction, we might as well be watching arm wrestling and dispense with the music altogether.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
If skating goes in that direction, we might as well be watching arm wrestling and dispense with the music altogether.


I am sure that thought has crossed Dai's mind more than once.......................


I am starting to like gymnastics more than skating. That will probably change back by the time the Japan Open rolls around.

I miss skating like this and moments like this which seem to be gone from Men's skating today.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqiIHxaMKK4

No boos for this legendary performance.
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I think the biggest Champions on Ice tour was 2002, following the Olympics. 93 cities. The skaters were exhausted.

Not every skater did every show. As I recall, Sarah Hughes, as Olympic champion, skated last in the shows at the beginning of the tour that she participated in. When Sarah dropped out, they put Michelle in that spot (Fields of Gold). But Alexei Yagudin said, hey, wait a minute. i'm a gold medal winner, too. Michelle only got bronze. So they let Yagudin skate last for a good portion of the tour.

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/events/coi02/coi_open_judy.jpg

More Champions on Ice, 2002 :)

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/trophies/winners/PRT2002.jpg

That was only time COI came to my city and MK did the last number. Skaters looked kinda numb from what I recall. Oh, and I didn't live far away from a bigger venue but couldn't ever get there.
 

MoonlightSkater

On the Ice
Joined
May 17, 2011
To me, the gymnastics CoP is easier to understand that the figure skating sytem. (Not that I understand it, but anyway...)

What I got out of the commentary was that the difficulty score is predetermined by the tricks that you chose to include in your routine. So many points for a half-back-pikey-double-sommersault, etc. If you omit or fail to execute a planned element, the difficulty score is reduced accordingly.

This is sort of like the total element score in skating, but not really. In skating you do not have to do the tricks that you plan, you can substitute a later jump for one missed earlier, etc.

Then the Execution score. I guess this is sort of like GOE, except instead of giving bonus points for meeting certain bullets or for doing an element with extra flair, the only thing that counts is deductions for specific errors. One point for a fall, three tenths for having your legs come apart when they are supposed to be together, and like that.

There does not seem to be anything in gymnastics corresponding to program components. No one seems to care if the program as a whole is well-constructed, or if they pay attention to the music on the floor, or anything like that. The idea seems to be, do the tricks, get the score.

You're mostly right, Mathman. To elaborate a bit, the Difficulty score is determined by the skills you perform plus some extra tenths for tricky connections of two or more skills. There are also competitive requirements that are worth .5 each on each event except vault. The 5 requirements per routine make up a base 2.5 of the difficulty score (assuming you have them all), and the value of a certain number of the hardest skills is added to the top, fewer for women than men. Then the connective value is added in. Most connections award .1, the harder ones .2. The score is not predetermined, but rather based on what you actually do. Skills can essentially be downgraded in gymnastics, too, and gymnasts can move them around in their routines though they very rarely do because it's very difficult to get back on track.

The execution score is mostly deductions out of a 10.0 start. Though the deductions are specific, they do have a range. Slightly separated legs might be a .1 deduction, but really bad leg separation might be a .3. Badly bent arms might be a .5. There is a deduction for very poor artistry, i.e. lack of choreography or movement quality, of up to .3. Also, there are composition deductions for things like uneven distribution of difficult elements throughout the routine.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Thanks so much for the information, MoonlightSkater.

Ladies' gymnastics has changed radically. It seems like the present scoring system both reflects and drives this change.

Janetfan posted this performance by 14-year-old Dominque Moceano in 1996. Sort of the culmination of the trend that started with Olga Korbut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6L8aZRDKcw

We will never see that sort of cutesy dancy routine again -- it does not score enough points.

I suppose it was sexist and unsporty back in the day to applaud little girls for being cutsey-wootsy while judging the boys on how steady they can hold their iron cross on the rings. I think the audience has matured along with the sport. Now we expect and appreciate strength and difficulty from the ladies, too.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Thanks so much for the information, MoonlightSkater.

Ladies' gymnastics has changed radically. It seems like the present scoring system both reflects and drives this change.

Janetfan posted this performance by 14-year-old Dominque Moceano in 1996. Sort of the culmination of the trend that started with Olga Korbut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6L8aZRDKcw

We will never see that sort of cutesy dancy routine again -- it does not score enough points.

I suppose it was sexist and unsporty back in the day to applaud little girls for being cutsey-wootsy while judging the boys on how steady they can hold their iron cross on the rings. I think the audience has matured along with the sport. Now we expect and appreciate strength and difficulty from the ladies, too.

Here is the best clip I have seen of Olga's legendary floor routine from1972. :love:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJXXGyVly_g


The charm and beautiful expression Olga brought to gymnastics was perhaps the single greatest influence on (women's) gymnastics in USA. Olga's impact was so great she became one of the few athletes that actually transcended her sport.

BTW, if you listen to the commentary during Moceanu's floor routine you will hear "and another Russian just fell off the beam."

Khorkina was not exaggerating when she said the crowd noise was so loud in Atlanta it was blowing girls off the beam.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is the best clip I have seen of Olga's legendary floor routine from1972. :love:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJXXGyVly_g

The charm and beautiful expression Olga brought to gymnastics was perhaps the single greatest influence on (women's) gymnastics in USA. Olga's impact was so great she became one of the few athletes that actually transcended her sport.

To the American people she brought a little spark of warmth to the cold war. :yes:

Here is a clip about the Netherlands team that won the first Olympic gold medal in women's gymnastics, competing in synchronized floor calisthenics in 1932. (The actual competitive team is the eight ladies exercising together in at the end of the clip. The first segment is an exhibition by a larger team and the middle part shows the men's vault. (Evidently they sent their best vaulter first so that he could stand there and catch the others if they fell. :) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJHcn3PUGzA
 

gato

Spectator
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
I apologize if this has been posted somewhere else but IOC has updated all their London 2012 Olympic videos on their youtube page.
All Artistic and Rhythmic gymnastic (some with BBC commentary) videos as well as other sports should be found here.

All sports: http://www.youtube.com/user/olympic/videos?view=1

Artistic: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8F70404DA2AF8553&feature=plcp

Rhythmic: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL326F9A80A0EC20F3&feature=plcp final: http://www.youtube.com/user/olympic?v=y-nyuuqmfVo
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Tremendous news! Thanks. Serious Business thought very highly of the BBC coverage, so it will be nice to see some of it.
 
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