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Thread: Men's and Ladies' Gymnastics

  1. #31
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    I, too, feel bad for Jordan- the cameras showing her crying were ruthless. She said all the right things and handled the situation pretty classy, though.

    Regarding Jordan's routines, from what I've read she had upgraded her beam routine but she and her coach decided to remove a pass that she was worried about. I've noticed that judges in fs and gym tend to grade more harshly if they feel you've watered down your routine instead of throwing all you're capable of.

  2. #32
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Someone dropped a crate of sad trombones on the US gymnasts at the Olympics. I've been too busy to watch the actual competitions, but I've read about the results and it's a bath of blood and tears. First Jordyn Wieber's missing out on the chance to compete for the Only Medal That Matters in her brutal sport, then the US men's team went from being gold medal co-favorites, to being the actual favorites after finishing first in qualifications, to finishing completely off the podium! This is just an unmitigated disaster so far for what is supposed to be the strongest delegation of gymnasts the US has sent to the Olly games.

    Even though I don't really follow gymnastics, I know enough to feel gutted for Jordyn Wieber. Basically everything she's worked for in her life is now gone before it started. Her life peaked and crashed at the age of 17. And unlike most other sports, it's very unlikely she'll have another shot at it. The turnover in women's gymnastics is mind-blowingly fast. In the last 10 years, only 6 out of 28 female gymnast have been on the World All-Around/Olympics podium twice. No female gymnast in that time has been on the podium more than 2 times. And the only one to get on the podium in non-consecutive years is Nastia Liukin. I can't think of any other sport/discipline in which an athlete has that short a time frame to peak. You get your one shot and then you're done. Wieber didn't get hers, but she's done. I tried comparing it to skating, another sport that's usually ignored, but then suddenly becomes the marquee event at an Olympic games. Skating is also a sport in which the once every four year chance to be relevant can elude many brilliant athletes. But the difference is, almost every skating great who missed out on an Olympic win/podium had multiple chances. Women's gymnasts, especially American ones, competing in a country overflowing with female gymnastics prodigies, just don't have that luxury. Wieber is very unlikely to even make the 2016 Rio team. It's a ruthless lesson in how one doesn't have to choke big time to completely blow it.
    Last edited by Serious Business; 07-30-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  3. #33
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    No each country does not get 2. Each country can get up to 2 but you have to qualify in the top 24. So no country is even guaranteed "one spot" This rule has been place for along time. Gabby Douglas (you know the girl that really replaced Jordyn even if she was considered up there with Wieber) placed 2nd qualifier. She was 5th in prelims last year. Nobody cried or screamed for her. Screamed unfairness. What did Gabby do? Gabby went home and upgraded her routines.. What did Aly Raisman do. She went home upgraded her routines.

    What did Jordyn NOT do. Jordyn didn't go home and upgrade her routines. Thats why she got surpassed. It doesn't matter what the media says. Jordyn was not going to win here unless some others screwed up.. She doesn't have the routines to do so this year. Last year she won over an injury depleted field because she had a more difficult. And Jordyn BARELY one that....They girl she won was competiting with only 3 full months of training and so had to water down her program and had a bit time dfificulty disadvantage. Vault especially got watered down. It should have been disconcerting to Team Wieber that it was close. It should certainly not have been a sign for no new materialized upgrades.

    Komova went hope (now has the Amanar back and other upgrades every where she's upgraded by well over a point. And then Jordyn's teammates upgraded and closed the gap on vault. Not a shocker at all.
    So, if I'm understanding correctly, this would be somewhat similar to Belbin and Agosto. They medalled at the Olympics because some of the top teams had unusual falls because of some added difficulty. So, when all of those teams skated clean at World's after adjusting their programs, everyone was shocked that B/A didn't win World's.

    So, Weiber won World's last year because some people faltered. While others amped up their skills, Weiber didn't amp hers up to account for the mistakes of others allowing her to be champion last year.

    Anyway, gymnastics has really been won by the tiniest of point differences. I recall Dominique Dawes and others bursting into tears when stepping out of bounds on floor routine because that one mistake was enough to take them out of the running for gold on the Olympic AA. So, all those little bobbles, etc do add up.

  4. #34
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Skaters get cameras shoved in their face in the K&C and the mixed zone, and we think of it as part of the sport. Being a high profile athlete sometimes means dealing with disappointment in the public eye. It sucks, but it's part of the deal.
    When NBC pulled it in 2002 after S/P were reacting to getting silver, people were just as upset... it's not so much them capturing the reaction, it's the way they harp at it... I'm not asking them to coddle anybody but have some tact and decency.

  5. #35
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    To watch the Men's Team Final I stayed up until 3:30am in the morning, woke up before 6am and it's still Tuesday morning...

    Congratulations to the top 3 countries!
    http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/gym...html#GAM400100

    China was stable as usual. Their preliminary round was as desastrous as Japan two days before, but they did regroup themselves and coped with the pressure very well. That's what makes a champion.
    Glad and relieved Japan did not give up until the last second of it, in spite of injuries and so many unexpected mistakes.

    But the true Winner of the night is the Great Britain! No doubt. Team GBR, you guys were just glorious!

    Very very very sad for Ukraina. it was so heartbreaking to see thier joys, excitements and heavenly smiles turn into such disapointments...
    I know almost nothing about scoring system in Gymnastics, but I have to wonder if the inquiry/appeal had not been from such power houses in gymnastics, e.g. China or Japan, and if it had not been for the world's best gymnast like Uchimura, who is the reigning 3-time world champion btw, the appeal might not have been accepted.
    It is a judged sport after all. We are to have mysterious/inconprehensible scores sometimes. Just like figure skating. It happens everywhere with Judo at this Olympics, too.
    I sincerely hope judges/refrees will be more accurate, precise and resolute at the first and every opportunity upon judging/scoring. Especially during the events like the OLYMPIC GAMES. And for the sake of all the world's best athletes.
    Last edited by deedee1; 07-30-2012 at 07:26 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfpacker View Post
    I, too, feel bad for Jordan- the cameras showing her crying were ruthless. She said all the right things and handled the situation pretty classy, though.

    Regarding Jordan's routines, from what I've read she had upgraded her beam routine but she and her coach decided to remove a pass that she was worried about. I've noticed that judges in fs and gym tend to grade more harshly if they feel you've watered down your routine instead of throwing all you're capable of.
    She added several new connections in her routine this year, many of them very questionable. The most questionable was an intended tumbling pass of front handspring to back tuck full twist to back handspring. She hasn't successfully completed that pass with both connections intact in any competition I've seen this year. She's occaisionally connected one half or another of it, but usually she misses both parts. During qualifications the first connection looked creditable, but she had a small wobble before the back handspring, and so she lost the connection there.

    She also added a connection between an aerial cartwheel and side somersault that they took out before the Olympics as she'd never connected it and it affected the quality of both skills.

    The third connection problem she had came on a series of turns. She intended to do a full turn in an "L" position with one leg at horizontal connected to a normal full turn on the other foot. She was a bit shaky in the L-turn, and so she did not do the second turn, thus loosing another potential tenth of connective value.

    A lot of people have been questioning her routine's composition since the beginning of the year as several of her connections were extremely tricky to the point where she seemed unlikely to be able to pull them off. The three skill pass with the back tuck full in the middle was definately the most questionable as she has to change directions from the front handspring to the back full and then has to stop twisting and land exactly on to be able to tumble out of the full. There is no room for even a slight correction there. Either you are on or you lose the connection. There's not really an in between on that one.

  7. #37
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Tim Daggett said they were quite harsh on Jordyn and she was underscored. Regardless of the tiny bobbles in 3 routines, she is world champion and she is a beautiful gymnast. Gabby is gangly, and Ally was lucky, she is clunky, not as good as her rep on floor. The Russians and the Romanians and Chinese look so much better on floor given their ballet training. There were judges that wanted to see Weiber lose her WC and I think she was underscored with "skateorder" a factor. She is a class act. Well, USA is going to win Team Gold, and I hope Jordan gets an individual gold. She is so powerful, yet elegant. She is not Nastia and nerves thru her off. But this is rediculous we will not see number 3 russian, chinese or romanian. The best gymnasts are not being allowed to compete for all around. I have said before in skating at the WC and Olympics I do not want to see East Podunk's best skater when US, or Japan's top 4 ladies are in the top 12 or 14. I don't want to see number 24 28 seeded skater or gymnast at the expense of seeing the WC ot top 10 in the world. It seems so unfair, though I see thre rationale. It is hard to be inclusive and make it a tru world competition if the biggest, richest countries who subsidize have 6 people in the all around, and the smaller nations have no chance to compete. It does not seem there is a faie, inclusive way to deal with this. Or is there? Ideas on what the Olympic rules should be for gymnastics?

    Maybe we look at the previous two years results before Olympics to have intl standings/ rank while then having the qualifying count for ? 50 percent? How do we get to ensure that the best, most consistent get to compete for all around in gymnastics at the Olympics? Tennis goes by rankings, then qualifying right? It does not matter about nationality or am I wrong?

    Can Bekalc or some gym buff explain when the rule became just the top two qualifiers? And I do not agree either that a country should be limited to three spots. I know people are going to say skating e.g. is losing their European and Northamerican audience because of the Asian dominance, but if the top 4 seeded ladies in the world are from Japan, well, the best should be at the world championships and Olympics. They have earned it if the numbers prove it. I think for skating, we should see people at the Olympics who have competed per ISU rules for two years. I don't think it was fair, nor did it work, that Nastia just hopped back in for 8 months and got to do the trials. How does that work? Was she allowed or invited based on past credentials? It did not work, and she embarassed herself I think because she was no where near Olympic shape. It seemed about her love of fame and publicity. I am not sure how and why Gymnastics works for comebacks.

    And what of the skaters -Olympic champions who don't compete for two or three years yet come back or get a bye from their federation. I am an MK fan and a Sasha fan, but I don't think it was fair to the current US ladies when Sasha missed the limelight and came back to Nationals not having competed. Her sp was fine, but we know in lesser comps she could not put an Sp and LP together and win gold except in a few GP events and the GP itself (she won one GP final? correct my memory please if wrong). 2010 Nationals should have been about the current highly ranked skaters and their Oly journey. It turned out well as Mirai and Rach were the best we had at the time, did wonderfully, had been competing well, and deserved their first journey to Olympics. And they were incredible-Rach having deserved 5th acc to the experts.

    I kinda think it was unfair when all the pros came back in 1994. As it turned out, one seemingly cursed skater and her victim were the stars of the show. Katarina who? If she knew she was not remotely competitive, should she have been there? At elite Oly level FS or Gymnastics, there is a time and window. Once in a half century, there is a Plushenko. He actually has been working through surgeries to become the CoP skater he needs to be to deserve a spot for Russia. So while I saw him as a relic and politically powerful person in Vancouver (who could still out jump the young ones), it does seem like there is a greed factor at work for many athletes who have already won the gold. MK was nowhere near Shizuka technically, and I am not so sure I liked what almost happened. As it turned out, she wasn't competitive due to injury and she saw Shizuka and Irina and she made a decision. A smart one. Injured and outgunned, Emily got her spot back. I will never understand and someone can explain who knows the rules and history better than me, how she was so good the committee saw her sp and lp and she was good enough for a bye-skated great we heard. Then she is injured in her first practice? Whatever happened, Emily was called on and was ready. Seems the universe puts a lot of things in a just way. Sometimes anyway. Yes, I'd rather watch a fit Mk over Emily Hughes any day of the week, but Emily had been competing, following the rules, and she earned her spot. I'm not sure I understand a 'bye' but it fairly got Nancy to an Olympics she deserved (and most say won).

    Now people are saying Yuna is more than ready to get her 3x3's back and that she is unbeatable technically and that her PCS's are always so high she is lock if she returns. If Yuna returns as "all that" it does seem that with her experience, her ability to get the best coaches, choreographers, costumes, etc, she might be the first repeat gold medalist since Katarina. I think that she is a great probability for a medal, but I think her gold medal will help and hinder. People will expect the two perfect performances, they will expect her to have improved in her lines, spirals, spins, and of course will expect the jump amplitude and flow in and out. So she may get rep points or she may get dinged by bigger points if she makes major mistakes. Yuna's comeback seem motivated by sincere reasons. I don't think she needs the publicity to keep the brand hot. I think we all want to know, if she can do thew job she did in Vancouver. So that is not a comeback that seems crazy, desperate. Two years is enough time to regain what she has lost. Yuna fans are thrilled or terrified for her it seems. I think it is a risk she may regret at S Korea will continue their obsession. I do not understand why she would take a ticket for more crazy fishbowl years, but...And S Korea has no one whose place she is taking who is remotely good enough to be on a world or Olympic podium. If there were one spot and she took it from someone who was regularly competing, I might find that unfair. Kind of the MK Emily issue when MK had been to 3 Olympics, skated in two. Was 4th just unfair when she did not win nationals or even skate there? I wish I had a better understanding of all these scorings/rules that many have. I hope interest and postings pick up in this Summer Olympics.

    If someone here would explain the scoring in brief, ladies and mens it would be nice. Right now I have tuned in to men's gymnastics. Any explanations as we go along would be great. This is such a great folder...Equestrian events, gymnastics and so much more. If anyone knows a good gymnastics forum that is beginner friendly, could you provide a link? thanks! Enjoy everyone!
    Last edited by skateluvr; 07-30-2012 at 11:20 PM.

  8. #38
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    MoonlightSkater thank you for your awesome insight on artistic gymnastics...
    Your posts have really helped me see through all the media talk.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Tim Daggett said they were quite harsh on Jordyn and she was underscored. Regardless of the tiny bobbles in 3 routines, she is world champion and she is a beautiful gymnast. Gabby is gangly, and Ally was lucky, she is clunky, not as good as her rep on floor. The Russians and the Romanians and Chinese look so much better on floor given their ballet training. There were judges that wanted to see Weiber lose her WC and I think she was underscored with "skateorder" a factor. She is a class act. Well, USA is going to win Team Gold, and I hope Jordan gets an individual gold. She is so powerful, yet elegant. She is not Nastia and nerves thru her off. But this is rediculous we will not see number 3 russian, chinese or romanian. The best gymnasts are not being allowed to compete for all around. I have said before in skating at the WC and Olympics I do not want to see East Podunk's best skater when US, or Japan's top 4 ladies are in the top 12 or 14. I don't want to see number 24 28 seeded skater or gymnast at the expense of seeing the WC ot top 10 in the world. It seems so unfair, though I see thre rationale. It is hard to be inclusive and make it a tru world competition if the biggest, richest countries who subsidize have 6 people in the all around, and the smaller nations have no chance to compete. It does not seem there is a faie, inclusive way to deal with this. Or is there? Ideas on what the Olympic rules should be for gymnastics?

    Maybe we look at the previous two years results before Olympics to have intl standings/ rank while then having the qualifying count for ? 50 percent? How do we get to ensure that the best, most consistent get to compete for all around in gymnastics at the Olympics? Tennis goes by rankings, then qualifying right? It does not matter about nationality or am I wrong?

    Can Bekalc or some gym buff explain when the rule became just the top two qualifiers? And I do not agree either that a country should be limited to three spots. I know people are going to say skating e.g. is losing their European and Northamerican audience because of the Asian dominance, but if the top 4 seeded ladies in the world are from Japan, well, the best should be at the world championships and Olympics. They have earned it if the numbers prove it. I think for skating, we should see people at the Olympics who have competed per ISU rules for two years. I don't think it was fair, nor did it work, that Nastia just hopped back in for 8 months and got to do the trials. How does that work? Was she allowed or invited based on past credentials? It did not work, and she embarassed herself I think because she was no where near Olympic shape. It seemed about her love of fame and publicity. I am not sure how and why Gymnastics works for comebacks.

    And what of the skaters -Olympic champions who don't compete for two or three years yet come back or get a bye from their federation. I am an MK fan and a Sasha fan, but I don't think it was fair to the current US ladies when Sasha missed the limelight and came back to Nationals not having competed. Her sp was fine, but we know in lesser comps she could not put an Sp and LP together and win gold except in a few GP events and the GP itself (she won one GP final? correct my memory please if wrong). 2010 Nationals should have been about the current highly ranked skaters and their Oly journey. It turned out well as Mirai and Rach were the best we had at the time, did wonderfully, had been competing well, and deserved their first journey to Olympics. And they were incredible-Rach having deserved 5th acc to the experts.

    I kinda think it was unfair when all the pros came back in 1994. As it turned out, one seemingly cursed skater and her victim were the stars of the show. Katarina who? If she knew she was not remotely competitive, should she have been there? At elite Oly level FS or Gymnastics, there is a time and window. Once in a half century, there is a Plushenko. He actually has been working through surgeries to become the CoP skater he needs to be to deserve a spot for Russia. So while I saw him as a relic and politically powerful person in Vancouver (who could still out jump the young ones), it does seem like there is a greed factor at work for many athletes who have already won the gold. MK was nowhere near Shizuka technically, and I am not so sure I liked what almost happened. As it turned out, she wasn't competitive due to injury and she saw Shizuka and Irina and she made a decision. A smart one. Injured and outgunned, Emily got her spot back. I will never understand and someone can explain who knows the rules and history better than me, how she was so good the committee saw her sp and lp and she was good enough for a bye-skated great we heard. Then she is injured in her first practice? Whatever happened, Emily was called on and was ready. Seems the universe puts a lot of things in a just way. Sometimes anyway. Yes, I'd rather watch a fit Mk over Emily Hughes any day of the week, but Emily had been competing, following the rules, and she earned her spot. I'm not sure I understand a 'bye' but it fairly got Nancy to an Olympics she deserved (and most say won).

    Now people are saying Yuna is more than ready to get her 3x3's back and that she is unbeatable technically and that her PCS's are always so high she is lock if she returns. If Yuna returns as "all that" it does seem that with her experience, her ability to get the best coaches, choreographers, costumes, etc, she might be the first repeat gold medalist since Katarina. I think that she is a great probability for a medal, but I think her gold medal will help and hinder. People will expect the two perfect performances, they will expect her to have improved in her lines, spirals, spins, and of course will expect the jump amplitude and flow in and out. So she may get rep points or she may get dinged by bigger points if she makes major mistakes. Yuna's comeback seem motivated by sincere reasons. I don't think she needs the publicity to keep the brand hot. I think we all want to know, if she can do thew job she did in Vancouver. So that is not a comeback that seems crazy, desperate. Two years is enough time to regain what she has lost. Yuna fans are thrilled or terrified for her it seems. I think it is a risk she may regret at N Korea will continue their obsession. I do not understand why she would take a ticket for more crazy fishbowl years, but...And N Korea has no one whose place she is taking who is remotely good enough to be on a world or Olympic podium. If there were one spot and she took it from someone who was regularly competing, I might find that unfair. Kind of the MK Emily issue when MK had been to 3 Olympics, skated in two. Was 4th just unfair when she did not win nationals or even skate there? I wish I had a better understanding of all these scorings/rules that many have. I hope interest and postings pick up in this Summer Olympics.

    If someone here would explain the scoring in brief, ladies and mens it would be nice. Right now I have tuned in to men's gymnastics. Any explanations as we go along would be great. This is such a great folder...Equestrian events, gymnastics and so much more. If anyone knows a good gymnastics forum that is beginner friendly, could you provide a link? thanks! Enjoy everyone!
    I think the rule about 2/country is pretty recent, it only dates back to 2004.

  10. #40
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    In the 1996 Olympics, the top THREE gymnasts from each country could qualify for the individual all-around, provided they were part of the top 36 in qualifications. Starting in 2000, it became 2 per country and only the top 24 gymnasts. It's part of an overall cut to shorten the competition.

    I agree that the rule makes for a ridiculous situation like this one in which the gymnast who was 4th can't compete, but the one who came in 28th could. Each country is already limited to only 3 competitors for the individual all-around qualifications. After that, why not let the top 24, regardless of country, compete anyway?

    It's extremely unlikely that Wieber could win gold on floor, where she's strong but not that strong. As for her winning the all-around gold ever? The last time a woman 21 (Wieber's age at the Rio Olympics) or over won all-around gold was in 1968. Wieber is probably never going to win an individual Olympic gold.

    I feel bad for Wieber, really bad. But all along, I've been rooting for Gabby Douglas to take the all-around, and she's still in this!

    As for the US men's team's ignominious finish, they just never looked hungry enough to me. Where's the killer instinct among that batch of milksops, besides the dogged but over-the-hill Horton?

  11. #41
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serious Business View Post
    I feel bad for Wieber, really bad. But all along, I've been rooting for Gabby Douglas to take the all-around, and she's still in this!
    Me too! I love her lines and lightness. I'm no expert but Jordyn just seems heavy (not in weight, in movements) and kind of clunks through her elements. Gabby has a finesse and more graceful look...she makes you feel like she is just flying on those uneven bars.

    maybe it's the skating fan in me always looking for ease in movements

  12. #42
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    wow, the men usa 5th--what happened? I was very happy for GBR tho. It was bronze then silver then bronze with the Japaese filing a complaint. Seems they made up their mind real fast. The Princes were going crazy for their Team. I seem to be missing the Equestrian events in the am maybe -I wanted to see Zara Philips. She got the sour faced QE2 to smile. Her fave grandchild. Gymnastics is going so fast, the ladies team event tomorrow nite, I think? I so want to see USA in gold. Jordan will feel her life's work mattered, all 5 really are awesome girls. It would be amazing if Gabby won AA. I have a feeling she will. She has this destiny aura going on and her single mother has sacrificed so much. I find them all so apealing/deserving. It should be very exciting. Gosh I wish I were there in London. I loved it so-great city-great people.

    Missy Franklin won gold in swimming -yahoo!.

  13. #43
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    Me too! I love her lines and lightness. I'm no expert but Jordyn just seems heavy (not in weight, in movements) and kind of clunks through her elements. Gabby has a finesse and more graceful look...she makes you feel like she is just flying on those uneven bars.

    maybe it's the skating fan in me always looking for ease in movements
    I don't find Jordyn particularly clunky. I think she's very, very good in everything she does. But yes, Gabby Douglas is the flying squirrel, after all, and the flight on her uneven bars is out of the arena good. But if you want height and lines, though, you can't go wrong with McKayla Maroney, her vaulting is like watching a ballerina at a demolition derby. The US women's team is ridiculously strong, which is, after all, the reason why Jordyn being slightly off-peak is enough to get knocked out of the all-around by her teammates. I feel bad for the other countries' teams having to go up against the American women... but not that bad.

  14. #44
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Ok I don't consider myself even an olympic gymnastics fan, but was GBR robbed out of a silver medal? We only got to see what NBC deemed worthy, but still?
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 07-31-2012 at 09:40 AM.

  15. #45
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    GBR still got a medal. It was Ukraine that the revised decision knocked off the podium.

    I watched the Canadian feed, where the Canadian commentator, Kyle Shewfelt, who competed in the 2008 games, said the whole thing hinged on whether Kohei's flailing dismount achieved a handstand, and Kyle said to him, it looked like it was a few degrees off. Near as I can gather in my own research, it depends on whether Kohei's core achieved a vertical position during the dismount. And I guess at some point during that swinging dismount, his core might have accidentally hit vertical? Going through the slo-mo replay frame by frame, it did look like his core was vertical right before his hands left the apparatus. I have no idea how they decide these things, but maybe that could've been it?

    I am personally inclined to believe they made the right call in the end. I heard it said the judges rewatched the video 10 times. They know the rules, they have the video replay, and if they had any predilection towards putting Japan ahead, they could've done it during the actual competition! I seriously doubt having a few minutes of the Japanese coach staring sullenly at a team of judges is enough to pressure them into rigging the results, invalidating their own earlier decision, and making themselves look pretty bad in front of a hostile crowd.

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