Protesting Scores: Something that Figure Skating needs?

dorispulaski brings up a good point about how one of the judging skaters and coaches may most like to protest would be tech calls of OTHER skaters. But I can't think of a good way to implement it. Because... To implement a protest system that isn't abused, there'd have to be some cost associated with a rejected protest. That means there's an inherent risk to an official protest (in some lower level gymnastics competitions that don't fall under FiG rules, a rejected inquiry may result in a penalty to the scores!). So let's say there's a skater who wins a lot and has a big target on his back, let's call him Patrick Khan, he has a really dodgy landing on a jump that really looked like a fall, but isn't called as one. Well, come the limited amount of time to file a protest (and that time has to be limited, because competitions should have definitive results in a reasonable timeframe), who's going to do it? Will it be representatives of skater Dice K.? The coach of Xavier Fern? Do they have time to get together and agree to split the inquiry fee? Should they make a deal before the competition? What if they both do it at the same time? Do they split the cost (that would just encourage all the lower ranked skaters to all file a protest)? A system like this would seem to encourage a lot of disharmony and backroom deals. I'm sure there are other problems, too. I can see why gymnastics doesn't allow coaches to protest the scores of other competitors.

Mathman said:

To me it seems like controlling the element well enough to exit it should be part of the criterion for whether the element was successfully executed. But what do I know?

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The specific problem in Kohei's dismount is that a dismount of a certain value is a requirement for each routine. It's a lot like the triple jump preceded by footwork is a requirement in a senior level short program. On pommel horse, for an element to be recognized as a dismount, it has to pass through a vertical handstand position (core of body vertical above hands, and body weight fully supported by only the hands). Arm bend in a handstand is an execution deduction, but it doesn't void the handstand. Additionally, the hips have to show continuous upward motion to the handstand with no breaks- this is the rule that ate Danell's pommels score in the AA. To have sufficient difficulty to meet the elite requirement, the handstand also has to include a full pirouette, or turn, in the handstand. In tonight's broadcast, Tim Daggett mentioned that the dismount has to be preceded by a skill that shows a full circle of the body on the pommel horse, which was a rule I didn't know until today. I'm sure Tim knows that one as he coaches elite level men's gymnasts. I've only ever judged women's, so I'm less versed on all the technicalities of men's events, though I pick them up by proximity enough to get what's going on.

As for inquiries, the head judge for the event as well as the head judge, or referree, for the entire competition are part of the group reviewing the inquiry in addition to the judges that were assigned to that event for the night. Only certain aspects of difficulty scores can be challenged. Examples might include the following: "Was gymnast X credited with a C value for such and such element?" or "Was such and such skill given CR (requirement) credit?" You absolutely cannot challenge execution deductions, and you absolutely cannot challenge other teams' scores. There is also the risk that an element that is being challenged could be further downgraded upon review. This doesn't often happen, but it is possible. This is probably the potential score penalty that Serious Business was thinking of above. At the international elite level they use replay for reviews, allowing for a more thorough analysis than real time can.

Mathman said:

I know. It's like when someone does a quad-triple but can't hold the landing. It is impressive that anyone can do such a hard trick, but the stumble takes away the wow factor from the audience's point of view.

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And that's why Komova didn't get the WOW score the judges were going to give her. Look if Komova were to ever "hit" her beam set, she's looking at getting around a 15.9. That girl has the best form in the world on beam. She gives NOTHING to the judges in terms of flexed feet, poor form, leaps not hit..There's no built in deductions for form on that routine.. Until that switch leap that routine was close to perfect. And not only is her form incredible (but her skill sets are unreal)

I'm worried about Komova winning this because she has still been trying to get her ankle healed. She was only doing beam/bars at Euros because of this. I fear her floor is just not going to be ready endurance wise. (She use to be quite good on floor.)

But Komova talent wise, combines both aspects of this sport more than any other gymnast to come around in a long time. This girl has amazing lines/ form and she also does incredibly difficult acrobatic tricks. The hardest vault in a world. The only gymnast to do a G dismount in combination! A double/double tucked of bars. And her own signature transition move on bars that' frankly not worth enough

As for why Russia got silver over Romania and China. Well China had several falls of their own and are subpar on vault. As for Romania, their bars rotation was actually WORSE than Russia's floor rotation. Let me put it to you this way, Romania finished last on bars of all the teams. They actually scored less on bars than Russia scored on floor. Russia at least had one good floor. Russia also outscored Romania quite a bit on vault. And rightfully so with Komova's Amanar.

Now the thing is Romania didn't fall on bars, they are just terrible on it and was always going to be the last place team on bars. I fail to see why anyone should feel sorry for Romania when they are "that horrible on an event"

bekalc said:

And that's why Komova didn't get the WOW score the judges were going to give her. Look if Komova were to ever "hit" her beam set, she's looking at getting around a 15.9. That girl has the best form in the world on beam. She gives NOTHING to the judges in terms of flexed feet, poor form, leaps not hit..There's no built in deductions for form on that routine.. Until that switch leap that routine was close to perfect. And not only is her form incredible (but her skill sets are unreal)

I'm worried about Komova winning this because she has still been trying to get her ankle healed. She was only doing beam/bars at Euros because of this. I fear her floor is just not going to be ready endurance wise. (She use to be quite good on floor.)

But Komova talent wise, combines both aspects of this sport more than any other gymnast to come around in a long time. This girl has amazing lines/ form and she also does incredibly difficult acrobatic tricks. The hardest vault in a world. The only gymnast to do a G dismount in combination! A double/double tucked of bars. And her own signature transition move on bars that' frankly not worth enough.

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It's getting nit-picky, but Aly Raisman also tumbles into her Patterson dismount.

MoonlightSkater said:

It's getting nit-picky, but Aly Raisman also tumbles into her Patterson dismount.

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No komova is the only one who does it in combination.. Basically the way Komova does hers is a more difficult entrance.

bekalc said:

No komova is the only one who does it in combination.. Basically the way Komova does hers is a more difficult entrance.

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Huh.... Could've sworn Aly tumbled into hers, too. But I went and found video from Olympic Trials, and nope, just the round-off. I've apparently watched too much gymnastics lately and it's starting to blend. Oooooh, I know what I did. I mentally combined Gabby's dismount entrance with Aly's dismount. Woops.

Tonichelle said:

when I said grabbed the cash I was not suggesting that they were bribing anyone, I hope it didn't come accross as such.

and from an "average joe" perspective, I wouldn't consider his handstand down to the floor portion of the dismount as him being in control, i'd consider it more of a fall out. Not that that's how the rules are played out, but since we're so worried about how the average joe responds to the sport of figure skating I guess perception should be taken into account in the

example, yes?

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no, u were quite clear and most of us saw it...it was just a processing fee, nothing more.

janetfan said:

She began her dismount in London and landed in Brazil.

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Thats good, perfect landing for Rio 2016

^

MoonlightSkater said:

The specific problem in Kohei's dismount is that a dismount of a certain value is a requirement for each routine. It's a lot like the triple jump preceded by footwork is a requirement in a senior level short program. On pommel horse, for an element to be recognized as a dismount, it has to pass through a vertical handstand position (core of body vertical above hands, and body weight fully supported by only the hands). Arm bend in a handstand is an execution deduction, but it doesn't void the handstand. Additionally, the hips have to show continuous upward motion to the handstand with no breaks- this is the rule that ate Danell's pommels score in the AA. To have sufficient difficulty to meet the elite requirement, the handstand also has to include a full pirouette, or turn, in the handstand. In tonight's broadcast, Tim Daggett mentioned that the dismount has to be preceded by a skill that shows a full circle of the body on the pommel horse, which was a rule I didn't know until today. I'm sure Tim knows that one as he coaches elite level men's gymnasts. I've only ever judged women's, so I'm less versed on all the technicalities of men's events, though I pick them up by proximity enough to get what's going on.

As for inquiries, the head judge for the event as well as the head judge, or referree, for the entire competition are part of the group reviewing the inquiry in addition to the judges that were assigned to that event for the night. Only certain aspects of difficulty scores can be challenged. Examples might include the following: "Was gymnast X credited with a C value for such and such element?" or "Was such and such skill given CR (requirement) credit?" You absolutely cannot challenge execution deductions, and you absolutely cannot challenge other teams' scores. There is also the risk that an element that is being challenged could be further downgraded upon review. This doesn't often happen, but it is possible. This is probably the potential score penalty that Serious Business was thinking of above. At the international elite level they use replay for reviews, allowing for a more thorough analysis than real time can.

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Thanks, Moonlight! For someone who only pays attention to gymnastics once every four years, this is very helpful.

Regarding the question of a challenge process in skating, I think it is a very interesting concept, but I have no idea how you would implement the process. It could be a real nightmare for those entrusted with the task!

Tonichelle said:

I know you dislike the idea that the audience entertainment value shouldn't be a real factor to the scores, but when you grade your students math papers do you give a full 0 for a wrong answer when they show their work and the answer was incorrect because of a misplaced decimal point, or they maybe swapped numbers? Or do you give partial credit for using the correct methods/work?

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I guess I would say it like this. I have greater appreciation for a mathematics paper that shows depth and elegance, as opposed to one that merely crosses the t’s and dots the i’s.

When you serve as referee for professional journals there are a hundred submissions for every paper selected for publication. The 99 rejected ones are correctly reasoned and display technical virtuosity, but the one you choose has that WOW factor.

(Teaching children is a different situation, of course.)

Mathman said:

I guess I would say it like this. I have greater appreciation for a mathematics paper that shows depth and elegance, as opposed to one that merely crosses the t’s and dots the i’s.

When you serve as referee for professional journals there are a hundred submissions for every paper selected for publication. The 99 rejected ones are correctly reasoned and display technical virtuosity, but the one you choose has that WOW factor.

(Teaching children is a different situation, of course.)

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But frankly the problem with the system is that they force people to rack up difficulty and don't properly penalize people who do it with poor form. Believe it or not Raisman is considered the poster child for this one..She doesn't wobble but ....She has really poor form on a lot of skills. In contrast, Komova tends to make mental errors in terms of wobbling but she has truly beautiful form. The problem is that Komova doesn't get extra points really for having such beautiful form, so she pretty much has to upgrade her difficulty too. Which she did and really some of that technical perfection was compromised a bit.

skateluvr said:

it was just a processing fee, nothing more.

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Um, I know, that's what I said.

bekalc said:

But frankly the problem with the system is that they force people to rack up difficulty and don't properly penalize people who do it with poor form. Believe it or not Raisman is considered the poster child for this one..She doesn't wobble but ....She has really poor form on a lot of skills. In contrast, Komova tends to make mental errors in terms of wobbling but she has truly beautiful form. The problem is that Komova doesn't get extra points really for having such beautiful form, so she pretty much has to upgrade her difficulty too. Which she did and really some of that technical perfection was compromised a bit.

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I often wonder if the difficulty race is the source of some of Aly's form problems, too. She has to have incredible difficulty to overcome her poor form or her scores would be even worse. If there was a difficulty cap (basically a return to the 10.0 system), Aly would have to fix her foot and leg form and a few basics to get competitive scores. So the difficulty race hurts both gymnasts' form. It's a lot like Patrick Chan doing really hard versions of everything and stumbling all over the place because of it.

I do rather wish that Mihai would send Aly to a ballet school to learn how to extend through her toes, and I hope that they'll work on her release form on bars if she continues after the Olympics. She still needs to work on her splits in leaps, especially the back leg in turning leaps, but they've improved A LOT over where they were a couple of years ago. I wish all the U.S. gymnasts would take dance classes, really. It really shows on the ones that do.

As for the protest process, it could work in figure skating, but they'd really have to think through ways to make sure protests only come in every once in a while. In all my years of judging gymnastics, I've only handled a maximum of about four protests in a meet on one event (so, maybe 16 total, though vault doesn't see many protests), and that was a championship level meet that lasted all day. If I had to handle protests for every other competitor the meet could become twice as long. Everything has to be done up in writing both for the protest and for the response, and that can take some time even beyond the time it takes to go back over the routine. Coaches always have protest forms on hand filled out as much as they can be ahead of time so they can get them in quickly enough.

The fact that replay is already used for reviews at senior international competitions might be a reason the ISU doesn't want to handle protests. Essentially they are already reviewing most of the questionable calls. I suppose a protest could cause them to review something they didn't initially look at twice, but if they habitually review anything deemed questionable, there shouldn't be a whole lot of need for a protest to begin with. Gymnastics is a lot less video based in how they handle the initial scoring because the routines are done right in front of the judges with the judges never far from the action- gymnasts can't bury a skill in the corner, so to speak.