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Thread: Men's LP JGP Courchevel 2012

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Men's LP JGP Courchevel 2012

    Here's the start order!

    Warm-Up Group 1
    1 Marcus BJORK SWE 18 36.61
    2 Vincent CUEREL SUI 19 32.78
    3 Pavel STRAKACH BLR 21 31.57
    4 Julian LAGUS FIN 20 32.46
    5 Vlad IONESCU ROU 17 36.71

    Warm-Up Group 2
    6 Sondre ODDVOLL BOE NOR 14 41.07
    7 Panagiotis POLIZOAKIS GER 12 45.68
    8 Peter James HALLAM GBR 15 39.43
    9 Alessandro PEZZOLI ITA 13 42.57
    10 Jui-Shu CHEN TPE 16 39.39

    Warm-Up Group 3
    11 Mikhail KOLAYDA RUS 8 50.51
    12 Victor BUSTAMANTE ESP 9 49.42
    13 Charles TETAR FRA 10 49.23
    14 Simon HOCQUAUX FRA 7 51.02
    15 Nam NGUYEN CAN 11 46.06

    Warm-Up Group 4
    16 Harrison CHOATE USA 4 57.67
    17 Ryuju HINO JPN 2 59.70
    18 Jason BROWN USA 3 59.33
    19 Ivan PAVLOV UKR 5 52.73
    20 Alexander PETROV RUS 6 51.74
    21 Boyang JIN CHN 1 62.98

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    MENS COMPETITION - VIDEOS & RESULT

    1. Boyang JIN (CHN) - 194.13 Short Program, Free Skate
    2. Jason BROWN (USA) - 185.81 Short Program, Free Skate
    3. Ryuju HINO (JPN) - 181.61 Short Program, Free Skate
    4. Harrison CHOATE (USA) - 169.70 Short Program, Free Skate
    5. Alexander PETROV (RUS) - 159.68 Short Program, Free Skate
    6. Mikhail KOLAYDA (RUS) - 159.22 Short Program, Free Skate
    7. Charles TETAR (FRA) - 154.29 Short Program, Free Skate
    8. Ivan PAVLOV (UKR) - 149.87 Short Program, Free Skate
    9. Nam NGUYEN (CAN) - 148.45 Short Program, Free Skate
    10. Simon HOCQUAUX (FRA) - 143.71 Short Program, Free Skate
    11. Panagiotis POLIZOAKIS (GER) - 135.58 Short Program, Free Skate
    12. Victor BUSTAMANTE (ESP) - 132.83 Short Program, Free Skate

    Here are the protocols

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    Thanks for the information and links; congrats to the medalists! Quick look the protocols....it is early in the season of course, but Brown's edge calls on the lutz among other jump issues screams to me he needs a good jump coach. Hope he is getting that or gets that soon.

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    Thanks for the information and links; congrats to the medalists! Quick look the protocols....it is early in the season of course, but Brown's edge calls on the lutz among other jump issues screams to me he needs a good jump coach. Hope he is getting that or gets that soon.
    I think the UR issues are more of a tightness or nervousness at this competition. He probably might have been a bit woundup from the mistakes the day before. In discussions about Jason in the past some have said he has a slight flutz, and it was more noticeable today. (he kicks to the inside-edge right at the last minute). But it's not the worst flutz -- just a matter of holding that edge to the end, definitely fixable.

    Judges, however, must have liked his program and how it's packaged because his PCS is NINE points above the rest of the competition (and in double digits when compared to Boyang Jin). That basically kept him in the running as he was 15 points behind Boyang in TES (and 7 points behind Hino, the bronze medalist). In the junior women's competition, for example while Radionova crushed her competition her PCS in the FS was just 1.71 points above the next highest skater (Ashley Cain).

    But for everyone's sake I do hope Jason gets everything together with the 3A and what not.

    I lke Boyang! He's sort of like Yan's little bro (as far as the jump arsenal). But he has nice speed and ice coverage.

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    There are moments in Brown's LP that yell Mao Asada. I don't really get how he outscored Jin for 10 points in PCS. The program is too ladyesque. It kind of drives me crazy.
    I thought Petrov's LP was the most entertaining.

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    ^ yes, yes, it's because of the PCS marks and his (jason's) large lead on that side of the scoreboard that I said I hope he can work out the jumps; triple axel a must, but also avoiding the flutz and I forget now what else (underrotations perhaps?). But I do hear you re: nervousness might explain some of this. It is just that he is such a good and such a creative skater, I want him to have the jumps to really be able to shine competitively (and yes, in seniors - I think he is doing absolutely fabulously in juniors in terms of medals etc, but he needs those jumps to make the leap to seniors).

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    ^ yes, yes, it's because of the PCS marks and his (jason's) large lead on that side of the scoreboard that I said I hope he can work out the jumps; triple axel a must, but also avoiding the flutz and I forget now what else (underrotations perhaps?). But I do hear you re: nervousness might explain some of this. It is just that he is such a good and such a creative skater, I want him to have the jumps to really be able to shine competitively (and yes, in seniors - I think he is doing absolutely fabulously in juniors in terms of medals etc, but he needs those jumps to make the leap to seniors).
    The good news is he does have time. Jaosn turns 18 in December. It seems that with the men (with exceptions of course) it is reasonable to peak in the early 20s.

    Back to the discussion at large, Nam Nguyen was interesting to watch. He made some mistakes at this competition, but I think clearly they reflect him getting use to his growing body. I can already see that once he is done growing he is going to have some beautiful lines in his skating. He already has a really nice look.

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    Please be careful with any over-hyping of Jason's crowd pleasing skating.

    It will surely lead to an outburst of "CFP."

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    CFP, janet? What is that?

    Noidont, just because you think is program is too feminine doesn't make the blade to ice content bad or him not deserving his scores on that side of the board. Having shared the ice with Jason, I can say he is one of the quietest on his skates and deserving of what he gets in SS as it looks effortless. He is magnetic on the ice (especially in person) which improves his IN mark (and this is something natural). I try not to be on a session with him as it's too distracting.

    He looked a little forced on a couple of his jumps which is probably why the URs and more pronounced "e" on the Lutz. He usually just lets the blade do the work on his jumps, but not as much here.

    I know Kori will bring in whoever she feels is a good fit to work with him. She's a nurturing and caring coach and typically wants what is best for her students in all things. Rumblings are that the 3A is closer to consistent in practice, but we shall see when he puts it out.

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    Jason needs the 3a. Period. I don't care if he falls on it or even under-rotates it, he should at least be going for it every chance he gets. If he wants to be competitive on the senior level he'll need a 3a in the SP and two in the FS AT A MINIMUM, with his flutz getting called now and the current state of men's skating, he likely will need a consistent quad on top of that even with all the good qualities his skating has. Time is ticking, he's almost 18, he's not injured that I've heard of, he hasn't gone through another growthspurt, so really, there's no reason he shouldn't be trying that jump. I hope losing to this unknown much younger Chinese boy has given him the reality check he needs to start trying the 3a no matter what. Unless of course, he really doesn't have a 3a, in which case, I'm even more worried. It might be time to drop Kori Ade for a new coach that's more technical and can take him to the next level. At this point, it looks like he might not even be one of the very top juniors on the international scene this season, and that's alarming. I really like Jason and hope he can get the 3a and work out the other kinks in his programs, but really, if he's serious about his future in the sport, things need to change and fast.

    On a different note, Jin has amazing potential! I hope he can continue to jump that well once he finishes going through puberty. Incredible jumper for a boy his age and size though, wow!

    Hino is also a great jumper, that 3a-3t was fabulous, however, he really needs to work on PCS.

    Choate does nothing for me but he skated pretty well here and I wouldn't mind seeing him get another event considering beyond Brown, Chen, and Farris, the JGP mens pool in the US is not that deep this season.

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    Jason lost about 10 points with all the flutz and underrotation calls (some of which I think are bit too harsh). I felt he was a lot more comfortable at Glacier Falls; perhaps he hasn't had enough time cutting 30 seconds off the program. The short program probably rocked him too with the terrible spins, so I felt he was tentative the whole way through.

    I agree with silverlake22 on his 3A. He's been working on it throughout the summer but I think he's still troubled by it. Jason just needs more height on his jumps and a technical coach to get him through these hurdles, because he's going to need at least an attempt on the 3A to raise his base score. Just by not attempting three 3As in the short and long, he's leaving 15.6 points on the table.

    As for Jin and Hino, their jumps are sustaining them for now, but their skating is quite basic. Transition marks in the 4s are deficient.

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    I was really curious before the competition whether or not Jason Brown would try the 3A. The fact that he did not even try one, pretty much sealed the deal for me. He might surprise me, but I think he's won't make it very far in Seniors. He's almost 18 and he hasn't even tried one 3A in competition. I wonder if he should have switched to Ice Dance when he was younger. He has great skating and interpretation skills and trouble with the more difficult jumps.

    BTW, I also don't think Jin will have great success in Seniors. He has great jumps (even a 4t!), but not so much else. Today you need good jumps AND good skating skills to be successful in Seniors. Therefore I see more potential in Nam Nguyen for example, but who knows what will happen in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Jason needs the 3a. Period. I don't care if he falls on it or even under-rotates it, he should at least be going for it every chance he gets. If he wants to be competitive on the senior level he'll need a 3a in the SP and two in the FS AT A MINIMUM, with his flutz getting called now and the current state of men's skating, he likely will need a consistent quad on top of that even with all the good qualities his skating has. Time is ticking, he's almost 18, he's not injured that I've heard of, he hasn't gone through another growthspurt, so really, there's no reason he shouldn't be trying that jump. I hope losing to this unknown much younger Chinese boy has given him the reality check he needs to start trying the 3a no matter what. Unless of course, he really doesn't have a 3a, in which case, I'm even more worried. It might be time to drop Kori Ade for a new coach that's more technical and can take him to the next level. At this point, it looks like he might not even be one of the very top juniors on the international scene this season, and that's alarming. I really like Jason and hope he can get the 3a and work out the other kinks in his programs, but really, if he's serious about his future in the sport, things need to change and fast.

    On a different note, Jin has amazing potential! I hope he can continue to jump that well once he finishes going through puberty. Incredible jumper for a boy his age and size though, wow!
    Comparing Jin and Brown:

    Age - 14 vs 17

    TES

    SP: 36.80 - 28.95 = 7.85 Jin (BV: 34.60 - 28.10 = 6.5 Jin)
    LP: 74.65 - 59.62 = 15.03 Jin (BV LP: 74.87 - 57.89 = 16.98 Jin)

    Total TES 111.45 - 88.57 = 22.88 Jin (BV 109.47 - 85.99 = 23.48 Jin)

    PCS
    SP: 26.18 - 30.38 = 4.20 Brown
    LP: 56.50 - 66.86 = 10.36 Brown

    Total PCS: 82.68 - 97.24 = 14.56 Brown

    So Jin is up about 23 points over Brown in TES and Brown is about 14.5 over Jin in PCS. However, it's worth noting that there is not a big difference in their SS, about half a point (5.68 vs vs 6.21 SP and 6.21 vs 6.64 LP), which mean much of Jin's PCS deficits can be made up with a better choreography, and simply by a couple years of growth and experiences.

    But Brown's main rivals in Junior competitions are still Han Yan and Joshua Farris. As discussed last season, what they need from the Wizard of Oz are choreography, personality, and Big Guy Jumps, respectively. Though all three are held at Junior by their federations, both Yan and Farris are ready to compete in Senior events but not Brown.

    Draqq, if you feel the calls on Jason's jumps are harsh, then it may be said that judges are generous on his PCS. Can't have it both ways. All three of his 3Lz got edge calls so it's a consistent problem. In his LP, the only clean jumps were 2As and the 3F (and a couple of 2Ts). The indications are clear what he needs to work on.

    As for Jin and Hino, their jumps are sustaining them for now, but their skating is quite basic. Transition marks in the 4s are deficient.
    Brwon's PCS is sustaining him for now but he obviously has problems with his jumps, while Jin's and Hino's jumps will likely get even better and sustain them forever during their competitive careers. Jin received a few TR marks in the 4's but not over all. As I noted above, there is not much difference in his SS and Brwon's. A little growing up and better choreos will close the gap in PCS. The question is whether Brown can close the substantial TES gap between him and the younsters like Yan and Jin, not to mention his contemporary Hanyu.

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Not everyone is a Patrick Chan or a Hanyu Yuzuru who can blaze through seniors in their late teens. If you look who is competing in seniors -- many are seeing success and improving in the ratings in their early 20s.

    Javier Fernendez breakout season this past season came as he turned 21.
    Jeremy Abbott won his first national title at age 24.

    Or on the ladies side, you got Akiko Suzuki who did her first 3-3 at the age of 26.

    This was not a great competition for Jason, no doubt. But to declare him doomed after one int'l competition, especially one early in the season, is a bit premature.

    ETA: Regarding SF's post above, it's good then that Jason is internationally junior another year. Some may think that as a major setback, but there has been other teams that have stewed in the junior ranks for a while and went on to do well in seniors. The Shibutanis, for example, were juniors at the national level for three seasons (two internationally).
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 08-25-2012 at 04:10 PM.

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    Philip Hersh has written a lot about Jason Brown because he is from Illinois and an article had a video attachd of him in the harness doing 3a over and over. I am not sure about non-harness. He should definitely be off the harness. Sometimes I think about Adam Rippon's world junior win in 2008 with no 3A but that was under the old underrotation regime so everyone avoiding it made a little sense but in 2009 it was back and Rippon and lots had a 3A. He and the team probably thinks if he is clean and others are messy he can win stuff like he did the JGPF. But a title really isn't important from jr to sr unless you also have the content to transfer from jr to sr.

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