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Thread: Men's LP JGP Courchevel 2012

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Comparing Jin and Brown:

    Draqq, if you feel the calls on Jason's jumps are harsh, then it may be said that judges are generous on his PCS. Can't have it both ways. All three of his 3Lz got edge calls so it's a consistent problem. In his LP, the only clean jumps were 2As and the 3F (and a couple of 2Ts). The indications are clear what he needs to work on.

    Brwon's PCS is sustaining him for now but he obviously has problems with his jumps, while Jin's and Hino's jumps will likely get even better and sustain them forever during their competitive careers. Jin received a few TR marks in the 4's but not over all. As I noted above, there is not much difference in his SS and Brwon's. A little growing up and better choreos will close the gap in PCS. The question is whether Brown can close the substantial TES gap between him and the younsters like Yan and Jin, not to mention his contemporary Hanyu.
    The technical panel is different than the main panel of nine judges who assess artistry and quality marks. Brown deserves high-6s, low-7s in PCS for his bladework, musicality, and fluidity. On a good day, which he did not have here, he deserves mid-7s on PCS.

    Where I think the technical panel was harsh is in the 3F+3T+2T. I don't think that both the 3T and 2T were under-rotated. Some of the other underrotations were close calls and I think he was within the quarter-circle margin for some of the jumps that were called. The flutz calls are legit, however, and Jason needs to consider a different technique going into it.

    The reason why Jin and Brown's SS are close is because of Jin's jump difficulty, which the judges factor into SS even if they are not really forced to. But we both agree that he needs a jumping coach, because he will need the 3A, a non-flutzed Lutz, and in my opinion a least one 4T attempt to secure a future in skating that lives up to both technical and artistic demands.
    Last edited by draqq; 08-25-2012 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by draqq View Post
    The technical panel is different than the main panel of nine judges who assess artistry and quality marks. Brown deserves high-6s, low-7s in PCS for his bladework, musicality, and fluidity. On a good day, which he did not have here, he deserves mid-7s on PCS.

    Where I think the technical panel was harsh is in the 3F+3T+2T. I don't think that both the 3T and 2T were under-rotated. Some of the other underrotations were close calls and I think he was within the quarter-circle margin for some of the jumps that were called. The flutz calls are legit, however, and Jason needs to consider a different technique going into it.
    That's your calls vs the TP's and the judges'. Theirs count. Fans' opinions don't.

    The reason why Jin and Brown's SS are close is because of Jin's jump difficulty, which the judges factor into SS even if they are not really forced to.
    Can't have it both ways here either. The judges gave Brown high PCS despite his low jump abilities and overall TES so why would they raise Jin's PCS because of his much higher jump content? OTOH What is commonly observed is that other component scores usually mirror a skater's SS score but in Jin's case all the other component scores are substantially lower than his SS, which leads me to think a good choreo will remedy much of the PCS deficiencies.

    But we both agree that he needs a jumping coach, because he will need the 3A, a non-flutzed Lutz, and in my opinion a least one 4T attempt to secure a future in skating that lives up to both technical and artistic demands.
    That seems to be the current Senior standard and the new wave of prodigies are achieving it at a much younger age than ever before.

  3. #18
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    When your tech content is huge, the judges can't really hold you down in PCS too much. We saw that with Nan Song last season. When he skated well, his PCS weren't stellar, but when combined with his hefty TES were enough to keep him afloat and allow him to medal in his GPs. However, when someone like Song skates poorly, his PCS plummet and he is nowhere near the top of the pack. The way I see it, if Jin is landing 3a and 4t with ease, and skates relatively cleanly otherwise, his PCS shouldn't be so low that they prevent him from beating another skater who attempted no 3a or 4t and had problems with his other jumps, it's just asking for controversy. That being said, should Jin have an off performance, I wouldn't be surprised to see his scores, including his PCS scores, drop quite a bit. In any event, his SS are pretty good and I don't think he was really overmarked for PCS. I certainly found his overall skating, jumps aside, more impressive than the likes of Choate and Hino, who IMO are quite awkward in the way they move across the ice.

  4. #19
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    Overall Brown's performances are not that bad. He was overmarked throughout the last season and the judges have finally realized it should be stopped. Brown was allowed to finish above Hino with one fall since he didn't have major mistakes but the Chinese prodigy is beyond his reach. A 17 y.o. man who never attempts the 3A is not anyone's hope. A 14 y.o. boy who is armed with the 4T and 3A is their new idol. Their PCS gaps will be narrowed by each competitions and it's perfectly justifiable if SS is interpreted as "skater's status".
    Last edited by NMURA; 08-26-2012 at 01:07 AM.

  5. #20
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    Our Chinese friends yousunny and SkateFiguring here told me about the new Chinese boy Boyan Jin, so I’m here to watch Jin’s video. Jin is indeed a talented boy with amazing jumps at this young age. OMG, he’s even more talented than Nathan and Nam Nguyen. And Jin is so cute, too! It’s a pleasure to watch him. I don’t think people should be too harsh on his lack of choreography and transitions. He’s still a little boy, and this is his first outing. Even though he doesn’t have the same level of choreography and transitions as Jason has now, I still have no doubt Jin will improve in those areas.

    However, I just hope Jin will also improve his skating skills while he nails down his difficult jumps. Perhaps someone should introduce him to the concept of edges, as his edges are very shallow now. And he almost has no speed and no flow. I don’t want this talented cute boy to become another Javier or Liza, who were well loved when they first entered international scene but later are often criticized because they have difficult jumps but weak skating skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by figureskatingfan22 View Post
    BTW, I also don't think Jin will have great success in Seniors. He has great jumps (even a 4t!), but not so much else. Today you need good jumps AND good skating skills to be successful in Seniors. Therefore I see more potential in Nam Nguyen for example, but who knows what will happen in the future.
    I agree that Jin needs to work on his SS, but Nam Nguyen doesn’t have good SS, either. Nguyen’s SS, even though better than Jin, are still not that good. Right now I think Jin will be more successful than Nguyen because Jin needs to work on SS, but Nguyen has to work on both jumps and SS.

    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    The judges gave Brown high PCS despite his low jump abilities and overall TES so why would they raise Jin's PCS because of his much higher jump content?
    The judges did raise other skaters’ PCS because of higher jump content in the past. For instance, we can compare PCS scores of Javier and Daisuke:

    Skate Canada 2011
    PCS
    Javier 81.14
    Daisuke 83.84

    SS
    Javier 8.14
    Daisuke 8.46

    Worlds 2012
    PCS
    Javier 75.66
    Daisuke 85.78

    SS
    Javier 7.68
    Daisuke 8.71

    As we can see, when Daisuke did not do well at SC and Javier landed his difficult jumps, they received close PCS scores including close SS scores. If you think there is not a big difference between Jin and Jason’s SS scores (6.21 vs 6.64), then the SS scores between Javier and Daisuke (8.14 vs 8.46) were even closer. But this doesn’t mean Javier and Daisuke’s actual skating skills are close—the SS scores might be close when Javier did well and Daisuke didn’t do well, but the judges knew that Javier’s actual skills were much worse than Daisuke’s. The judges just like to see higher jump content and are willing to reward it with inflated PCS. However, when Javier failed at the worlds, his PCS dropped vastly.

    That’s why I think Jin should improve his SS and I don’t want to see the judges treating Jin in the same way as how they treated Javier. Jin is more talented than Javier, and it’s easier to learn skating skills at Jin’s age. If he gets to Javier’s age and then realizes he needs to improve his SS, then it’ll be too late.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor2014 View Post
    Our Chinese friends yousunny and SkateFiguring here told me about the new Chinese boy Boyan Jin, so I’m here to watch Jin’s video. Jin is indeed a talented boy with amazing jumps at this young age. OMG, he’s even more talented than Nathan and Nam Nguyen.
    Why is he more talented than Nathan Chen?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I lke Boyang! He's sort of like Yan's little bro (as far as the jump arsenal). But he has nice speed and ice coverage.
    I don't see it. Yan's skating skills are so much better. And his jumps have that soaring quality. Jin's don't.

  8. #23
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    IIRC Jin landed three 3Axels at last year's Asian Trophy. I think he's the first man since Gachinski to land the 3A at the first junior competiton. He landed the 4T later in the same season. I don't remember the case of Plushenko though, Jin's jumping talents are definitely "unprecedented" level. Hanyu landed his first 3A around October of the first season but couldn'd land clean ones in both programs until next year. I don't know much about Nathan Chen. But for starters, he must land three 3Axels to be comapred with Jin.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    I don't see it. Yan's skating skills are so much better. And his jumps have that soaring quality. Jin's don't.
    He's young though. He's only 14. Give him a few years.

    Yes Yan's skating skills are much better, but that was not what I was commenting on. I am impressed he has the jumps already (like Han) and that he has decent ice coverage and speed for someone as small as him.

    That said, I don't agree that he has more talent than Nathan Chen. Chen may not have the level of jumps (though he's close on a 3A, I hear?) but he is advanced in other areas.

    Edited for Jin's age. Still young!
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 08-29-2012 at 12:57 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I don't know much about Nathan Chen. But for starters, he must land three 3Axels to be comapred with Jin.
    Maybe as far as jumps. But as I said, I feel Chen is advanced in other aspects of his skating.

    Anyway compare them yourself. Since Nathan hasn't done his JGP event, I'll use his FS from Nationals as comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJB_fUtT1tU

    Here's Boyang's FS from JGP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M5PkWu7MGg

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    He's young though. He's only 13.
    He is going to turn 15 in two months.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by whispering View Post
    He is going to turn 15 in two months.
    I looked at an old article! Opps. Anyway, post corrected.

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