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Thread: Free Dance JGP Courchevel 2012

  1. #16
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    Based on PCS scores, here's how each of the judges placed the teams.
    NOTE: In the JGP, the judges ARE identified. J1=FRA, J2=ITA, J3=UKR, etc., for all the competitors.

    All the judges except UKR, RUS and BLR placed Papadakis/Cizeron 1st.
    All the judges except UKR, RUS and BLR placed the actual medalists in the first 3 places.

    FRANCE
    1 FRA1
    2 RUS1
    3 CAN1
    4 UKR
    5 RUS2
    6 CAN2
    7 FRA2
    8 USA1
    9 USA2
    10 BLR


    ITALY
    1 FRA1
    2 CAN1
    3 RUS1
    4 USA1
    5 USA2
    6 RUS2
    7 FRA2
    8 CAN2
    9 UKR
    10 BLR


    UKR
    1 RUS1
    2 FRA1
    3 UKR
    4 RUS2
    5 CAN1
    6 BLR
    7 CAN2
    8 USA2
    9 USA1
    10 FRA2


    RUS
    1 RUS1
    2 FRA1
    3 RUS2
    4 UKR
    5 USA1
    6 CAN1
    7 BLR
    8 USA2
    9 CAN2
    10 FRA2


    USA
    1 FRA1
    2 RUS1
    3 CAN1
    4 USA1
    5 USA2
    6 CAN2
    7 RUS2
    8 UKR
    9 FRA2
    10 BLR


    CAN
    1 FRA1
    2 RUS1
    3 CAN1
    4 USA1
    5 RUS2
    6 CAN2
    7 UKR
    8 USA2
    9 FRA2
    10 BLR


    BLR
    1 RUS1
    2 FRA1
    3 UKR
    4 RUS2
    5 CAN1
    6 BLR
    7 USA2
    8 CAN2
    9 USA1
    10 FRA2

  2. #17
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    Let's call RUS, URK, and BLR "Bloc A", and USA, CAN, FRA, and ITA "Bloc B". SP results were very close, with RUS 1st and FRA 2nd. LP difference was much wider between the two teams and decided the eventual placements. Bloc A has RUS 1st and FRA 2nd while Bloc B has FRA 1st and RUS 2nd. All we can say is Bloc B has the number and the power and they decided the results.

  3. #18
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    How interesting..and in some cases , laughable.

  4. #19
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    Papadakis/Cizeron: Seniors in terms of projection and attack (indeed, their score of 78.88 would've placed them in 14th in the FD at Nice). A little wild, but I like the flair and energy they bring. Terrific spin. They've certainly got some gams, haven't they? Post-Sochi should be fascinating between these two and Zahorski/Miart.

    Zenkova/Sinitsin: Ehh. Cats is annoying, and they chose a particularly dirge like rendition of a playful piece. Some nice moments (the straightline lift, the choreographed lift) but overall, no. Lovely skating skills, though.

    Edwards/Kai Pang: Ehh, don't much care for it. It's got some spark and they skated it well, enough, I suppose. But it's not as good as their SD. And I never say that, because the SD is a crime against figure skating.

    Korotitskaia/Spodirev: Well, that went to pieces a bit by the end, didn't it?

    Evdokimova/Bazin: They were also fatigued, but it wasn't bad (I wouldn't had it ahead of K/S).

    McNamara/Carpenter: Okay, so why was that rotational lift a level one? Because it was spectacular. Also got a little hosed on PCS. They had flow and match. Yeah, they skate junior, yeah, the program is a bit drippy, but they hit very nice positions and really skate well together. Ahead of K/S for sure, maybe E/B. I know they got hammered on levels (the GOE was pretty great)

    Hasegawas: Meh.

    Moore/Klaber: Heh. Personality to spare. But it's still Moulin Rouge, you know?

    Kavaliova/Bieliaeiv: I muted this and put on Eric Clapton. Didn't make any sense, but my ears stopped bleeding. Awesome entry into that straightline lift.

    Elizabeth/Le Gac: The whooping cheerleader in the audience made me feel bad for being bored.

  5. #20
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    Thanks so much for posting all those videos! I think:

    - the French were the class of the field, and deserved their placement for sure.

    - Russian1 was significantly over-rated. This was REALLY bad - telegraphing lifts, spin that traveled, a whole lot of 2-foot skating and very basic stroking. They did not deserve to medal. It looked like the program is not yet ready for prime time. They were thinking through it all the way, and it looked almost like they were making it up as they went.

    - Canada1 had a solid program. It looks like real dancing, and was light and quite lovely and fast. I would have had this team in 2nd. To improve, she needs to fix her posture (shoulders) by learning to use her knees more instead of bending forward. The choreography also has her doing way too many pirouettes/twizzles throughout the program. I'm sure there are more complex and interesting ways to transition than this. At the moment, Bent/McKeen have the more complex and better presented program from what I've seen.

    - Ukranians I liked much better than the Russian1 team. Perhaps they had more errors than the Russian team, but I can't see how. The program is more complex, and much better executed.

    - I have to confess I stopped watching Russian2 about a minute and a half in. I just couldn't take it anymore. Boring, they skated far apart, and were missing an semblance of finesse. Again, a whole ton of crosscuts and 2-foot skating.

    - The American team is charming. I love their lifts, and they had some good elements. I think they are missing more complex choreography and transitions. Again, too many crosscuts and 2-foot skating was the norm throughout the competition. I think this team is capable of more, and given their really young ages, it should be interestiing to see how they develop at Junior over the next few years. They are a well-matched team.

    - Canada2. What can I say? I've been a fan of Hasagawa's for awhile. I think they have a lot of potential, but I don't see it yet this season. They seem out of sync, and not skating as a team. They have the moments where they have beautiful lines, but then it is lost in a lack of unison or lack of connection. This was really obvious in the SD, but also continued in the FD. We'll have to see how they develop over the season, but perhaps it is time to think about new partners for both of them? I think they both age out of Junior? Maybe a chance to reinvent themselves at Senior with separate partners?

    I stopped watching after the first 7 numbers. It's early in the season, so I guess it is normal for programs to be a little rough yet. It will be interesting to see if/how the quality improves with upcoming events. Looking forward to the Lake Placid event next week.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    Thanks so much for posting all those videos! I think:

    - the French were the class of the field, and deserved their placement for sure.

    - Russian1 was significantly over-rated. This was REALLY bad - telegraphing lifts, spin that traveled, a whole lot of 2-foot skating and very basic stroking. They did not deserve to medal. It looked like the program is not yet ready for prime time. They were thinking through it all the way, and it looked almost like they were making it up as they went.

    - Canada1 had a solid program. It looks like real dancing, and was light and quite lovely and fast. I would have had this team in 2nd. To improve, she needs to fix her posture (shoulders) by learning to use her knees more instead of bending forward. The choreography also has her doing way too many pirouettes/twizzles throughout the program. I'm sure there are more complex and interesting ways to transition than this. At the moment, Bent/McKeen have the more complex and better presented program from what I've seen.

    - Ukranians I liked much better than the Russian1 team. Perhaps they had more errors than the Russian team, but I can't see how. The program is more complex, and much better executed.

    - I have to confess I stopped watching Russian2 about a minute and a half in. I just couldn't take it anymore. Boring, they skated far apart, and were missing an semblance of finesse. Again, a whole ton of crosscuts and 2-foot skating.

    - The American team is charming. I love their lifts, and they had some good elements. I think they are missing more complex choreography and transitions. Again, too many crosscuts and 2-foot skating was the norm throughout the competition. I think this team is capable of more, and given their really young ages, it should be interestiing to see how they develop at Junior over the next few years. They are a well-matched team.

    - Canada2. What can I say? I've been a fan of Hasagawa's for awhile. I think they have a lot of potential, but I don't see it yet this season. They seem out of sync, and not skating as a team. They have the moments where they have beautiful lines, but then it is lost in a lack of unison or lack of connection. This was really obvious in the SD, but also continued in the FD. We'll have to see how they develop over the season, but perhaps it is time to think about new partners for both of them? I think they both age out of Junior? Maybe a chance to reinvent themselves at Senior with separate partners?

    I stopped watching after the first 7 numbers. It's early in the season, so I guess it is normal for programs to be a little rough yet. It will be interesting to see if/how the quality improves with upcoming events. Looking forward to the Lake Placid event next week.
    Well based on the reviews so far it seemed like only the Russian teams were bad! How did these Russian teams compete with all the teams with talent?

  7. #22
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    See chuckm's posts on the makeup of the tech and judging panels for an interesting side-light.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Well based on the reviews so far it seemed like only the Russian teams were bad! How did these Russian teams compete with all the teams with talent?
    To be honest, I was thoroughly underwhelmed by pretty much all of them. I liked French1, thought Canada1 was ok, and USA looked alright and seem to have nice potential for such a young team in their first outing. The rest were just not that exciting, and I would have had some of the teams in a different order. I have to think stronger Russian teams will be in future JGP's, based on last year's experience.

  9. #24
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    chuckm, your post is interesting. i wonder how it pans out if you look at TES as well.

    It's not just that Bloc B had the numbers...it's that Bloc A countries seem to support each other while Bloc B teams don't. For example, BLR ranked RUS teams higher than average and RUS returned the favour.

    After all, but Bloc A judges (BLR, RUS, UKR) ranked BLR 6th-7th, but all Bloc B judges ranked BLR 10th.
    Then, the BLR judge thanks RUS and UKR for the high BLR placements, by placing RUS2 and UKR higher than average.

    For individual Bloc B judges, you do note some interesting items - like the USA ranking their teams 4th and 5th. But RUS placed both RUS teams on the podium, and UKR placed their team on the podium. It's more to do with how the judges in Bloc A ranked teams representing countries from Bloc A other than their own.

    Within the Bloc B as a whole, you don't see the same support for countries within the group. For example, FRA and USA and both in Bloc B, but FRA ranked the USA teams 8th and 9th.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scout View Post
    chuckm, your post is interesting. i wonder how it pans out if you look at TES as well.

    It's not just that Bloc B had the numbers...it's that Bloc A countries seem to support each other while Bloc B teams don't. For example, BLR ranked RUS teams higher than average and RUS returned the favour.

    After all, but Bloc A judges (BLR, RUS, UKR) ranked BLR 6th-7th, but all Bloc B judges ranked BLR 10th.
    Then, the BLR judge thanks RUS and UKR for the high BLR placements, by placing RUS2 and UKR higher than average.

    For individual Bloc B judges, you do note some interesting items - like the USA ranking their teams 4th and 5th. But RUS placed both RUS teams on the podium, and UKR placed their team on the podium. It's more to do with how the judges in Bloc A ranked teams representing countries from Bloc A other than their own.

    Within the Bloc B as a whole, you don't see the same support for countries within the group. For example, FRA and USA and both in Bloc B, but FRA ranked the USA teams 8th and 9th.
    Who doubts that if Chuck could do the same analysis for senior events the results would be much different?

    Haven't I read hundreds of posts at GS that claim the "CoP has eliminated bloc voting and cheating."

    Senior judging is anonymous primarily to make it harder to catch these types of results.
    Last edited by janetfan; 08-27-2012 at 07:13 PM.

  11. #26
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    Unfortunately, it isn't possible to do the same analysis for competitions other than the JGP. For GP, International B and ISU Championships, the judges' scores for each skater are displayed in random order.

    What the scores for this competition show is that when 3 judges band together to effect a common result, the teams they back will place well relative to others, especially when you have such a small panel (7 judges instead of 9). FRA, ITA, CAN and USA were in agreement on the podium placements, but beyond that, each judge had his/her own perspective. That made it easier for RUS, UKR and BLR to keep the RUS and UKR teams all in the top 6.

    The most eyebrow-raising difference among the two groups was UKR, RUS and BLR placed the BLR team 6th or 7th, while the other 4 judges had them 10th. That allowed BLR to finish 9th in the FS.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Unfortunately, it isn't possible to do the same analysis for competitions other than the JGP. For GP, International B and ISU Championships, the judges' scores for each skater are displayed in random order.

    What the scores for this competition show is that when 3 judges band together to effect a common result, the teams they back will place well relative to others, especially when you have such a small panel (7 judges instead of 9). FRA, ITA, CAN and USA were in agreement on the podium placements, but beyond that, each judge had his/her own perspective. That made it easier for RUS, UKR and BLR to keep the RUS and UKR teams all in the top 6.

    The most eyebrow-raising difference among the two groups was UKR, RUS and BLR placed the BLR team 6th or 7th, while the other 4 judges had them 10th. That allowed BLR to finish 9th in the FS.
    But the extreme corruption that allowed the Russian team to place second had to be shared with the technical caller. With their elements as bad as the PCS is being discussed -the Russian team basically deserving zeroes or ones across the board because they are such wretched no talents the technical levels were also extremely corrupt in every way. Obviously the RUssian Ukrainian and Belarus judges should all be banned because they are giving no talents medals.

  13. #28
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    PCS according to chuckm's ranking:


    -----------ukr-------rus -------blr-------fra-------ita-------usa------can

    1--fra1-----2---------2---------2----------1---------1---------1---------1

    2--rus1----,1---------1---------1----------2---------3---------2---------2

    3--can1--.--5---.-----6---------5----------3---------2---------3---------3

    4--ukr------3---.-----4---------3----------4---------9---------8---------7

    5--rus2-----4---------3----.----4----------5---------6---------7---------5

    6--usa1-----9-----.---5---------9----.-----8---------4---------4---------4

    7--can2-----7---.-----9---------8----------6---------8---------6---------6

    8--usa2-----8---------8---------7----.-----9---------5---------5---------8

    9--blr-------6---------7---------6---------10--------10--------10-----.--10

    10-fra2-----10--------10--------10---------7---------7---------9---------9



    What stands out is that the Russian judge really quite liked USA1 whereas the French judge really disliked them, putting them at 8th place behind USA2 at 7th. (edit to correct. The French judge actually put USA2 at 9th.) The American judge, OTOH, gave RUS2 the lowest score of all judges.

    The Russian judge joined Bloc B for USA1.

    The French judge joined Bloc A for UKR, USA1 and USA2.

    The Canadian judge joined Bloc A for USA2 as well. Only the American and the Italian judges liked USA2.

    Bloc B split into Bloc Euro and Bloc NA for FRA2. Or, only Italian and French judges liked FRA2, relatively speaking.

    One may say the French judge was the most independent, or s/he really disliked American Ice Dancing. But then as noted above, only American and Italian judges liked USA2.

    Teams with biggest disparity and bloc differences are UKR, USA1, and BLR, with the Russian judge switching bloc alliance in the case of USA1.


    This is not necessarily an accurate picture because it's simply PCS ranking without taking into consideration the margins between ranks.

    TES is a lot more complicated to calculate because the GOE values vary according to the elements scored. I'm not sure if I'd have time to do them. Maybe.

    Eta. In the day litght I noticed a typo putting USA2 7 instead of 9 by the French judge and mouthing off from that. It's now corrected.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 08-28-2012 at 10:10 AM.

  14. #29
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    Thanks for the breakdown SkateFiguring, very interesting in fact.

  15. #30
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    There is a statistic called the Spearman rank correlation coefficient that measures the amount of agreement between two judges in a ranked list. Here is how it turned out for these data. (1.00 means perfect lock-step correlation, 0 means untterly random.)

    UKR v. BLR = .99
    UKR v. RUS = .85
    UKR v. FRA = .76
    UKR v. CAN = .62
    UKR v. ITA = .52
    UKR v. USA = .44

    RUS v. BLR = .86
    RUS v. UKR = .85
    RUS v. FRA = .82
    RUS v. CAN = .73
    RUS v. USA = .73
    RUS v. ITA = .54

    BLR v. UKR = 99
    BLR v. RUS = .86
    BLR v. FRA = .77
    BLR v. CAN = .58
    BLR v. ITA = .54
    BLR v. USA = .45

    FRA v. RUS = .82
    FRA v. CAN = .82
    FRA v. BLR = .77
    FRA v. UKR = .76
    FRA v. ITA = .73
    FRA v. USA = .71

    ITA v. USA = .93
    ITA v. CAN = .85
    ITA v. FRA = .73
    ITA v. RUS = .54
    ITA v. BLR = .54
    ITA v. UKR = .52

    USA v. ITA = .93
    USA v. CAN = .92
    USA v. RUS = .73
    USA v. FRA = .71
    USA v. BLR = .45
    USA v. UKR = .44
    CAN v. USA = .92
    CAN v. ITA = .85
    CAN v. FRA = .82
    CAN v. RUS = .73
    CAN v. UKR = .62
    CAN v. BLR = .58

    (Calculation for France is off a bit because there is a mistake in the original data which I didn’t notice until I was almost done. There may be other mistakes in arithmetic in this hurried hand calculation.)

    As SkateFiguring mentions, France is the most independent. USA, CAN, and ITA are tight, as are UKR, BLR, and RUS.

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