Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 137

Thread: Ashley or Gracie?

  1. #31
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    I do think that Wagner and Gold are the one-two tandem heading into this season and I believe that the US Federation wants it that way. I wouldn't be shocked in Zhang interrupted that duo (like Wagner, she made massive improvements this past season). Anyone else would be a genuine surprise to me.

  2. #32
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,171
    In addition, Gracie has already put down the gauntlet having shown that that she has more difficult content this year. I wrote this over on FSU:

    Last year tech content (Senior - WTT)

    3Z-3T 10.10
    2A-3T 7.40
    3L 5.10
    3F 5.3
    2A-2T-2T* 6.71
    3Z* 6.60
    3S* 4.62
    TOTAL: 45.83

    This year
    3Z-3T 10.10
    3F-1L-3S 10.0
    2A 3.3
    3L 5.10
    2A-2T* 5.17
    3Z* 6.60
    3F* 5.83
    TOTAL: 46.10

    For perspective, Ashley Wagner had the highest Jump BV at 2012 Worlds at 44.81. And at Nationals 2012, it was Angela Wang (who made a major comeback to go from 16th to8th), who had the highest Jump BV at 41.93.

    Also PCS is more than whether she looks artistic or senior. She should score decently in some of the technical categories (skating skills and transitions), esp. the transitions. She has a ton of them in her programs.

    As for Ashley Wagner -- she is the defending champion, so certainly she is in the mix. Also looking at her from now to back in 2010, she is definitely as fit as I've ever seen her. (She's always been pretty fit, but I'm saying she's even more so.)

  3. #33
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    16,693
    Unfortunately, Ashley still has edge calls, and if anything, the judging we've seen so far in the JGP has been even tougher. So it is hard to say, given that we haven't seen this year's judging in seniors, to say which will do better on the GP. It should be Ashley because of her great Worlds showing last year, but Gracie is a force of nature

  4. #34
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Janetfan, I struggle to understand why when you want to lift Gracie up, you have a need to kick someone's success down. Especially a success of 13 year old girl. As I said, you are comparing incomparable. Radionova cannot beat Gold this season because Gold will be competing in seniors, whereas Radionova is just old enough to compete in juniors. If you really want to compare Gold to someone from Russian youngsters, compare her to Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva and Lipnitskaya. Or, if you still insist on comparing her to Radionova, make the comparison fair - Radionova is 13, what were Gracie's results when she was 13? Radionova was 5th at the seniors nationals (in a very strong field) and 3rd at the junior nationals. As far as I am aware, Gracie did not qualify to compete at senior or junior nationals when she was 13. I do agree with you that Gracie is a good skater, but there really is no need to try to reduce someone's else's results. In year or two, when Radionova can skate in seniors, we will see which of them will be better.
    I totally agree with you. It is not fair to compare a 17 year old to a 13 year old. Technically we should compare Gracie to other skaters when they were 17. By the time Mao and Yuna were 17 they had both won Junior Worlds and medaled at Senior Worlds. Gracie is late coming onto the scene and last season was beaten by younger competitors. This doesn't mean, however, that she won't go on to do well in seniors but I'm reserving judgement on her for the time being. Saying that though I'm not a huge fan of her at the moment, not quite sure what all the hype is about?!

  5. #35
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    She's an American lady who can jump and who seems to have a good head on her shoulders. We Canadians would love to have someone who fits that description. Or even half of it.

  6. #36
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    6,889
    Quote Originally Posted by cashley View Post
    I totally agree with you. It is not fair to compare a 17 year old to a 13 year old. ?!
    How about this - someone had said Gracie looks like a junior. I said, hold on, let me show you a top junior....and see the difference.

    I used Radionova because I think she is great - and therefore able to illustrate my point much better.

    Time for both of you to get over it.......
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-02-2012 at 01:58 PM.

  7. #37
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Also PCS is more than whether she looks artistic or senior. She should score decently in some of the technical categories (skating skills and transitions), esp. the transitions. She has a ton of them in her programs.
    True, there are five different categories, but (I thought, Mrs. P, that you might have been responding to something I said above) it is rare to see someone's PCS (from one category to the next) range more than 0.5 to 0.75 points. For instance, no one gets a 8.25 for skating skills, but a 6.5 for interpretation. These things don't seem to be evaluated independently of each other by the judges. This is why I think Gold will have trouble matching Wagner on PCS next season (having seen Gold's SP), even if Gold's skating skills and transitions are very good.

  8. #38
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    6,889
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    True, there are five different categories, but (I thought, Mrs. P, that you might have been responding to something I said above) it is rare to see someone's PCS (from one category to the next) range more than 0.5 to 0.75 points. For instance, no one gets a 8.25 for skating skills, but a 6.5 for interpretation. These things don't seem to be evaluated independently of each other by the judges. This is why I think Gold will have trouble matching Wagner on PCS next season (having seen Gold's SP), even if Gold's skating skills and transitions are very good.
    You raise an interesting point.
    There are supposed to be five different categories but in 2-3 minutes after watching a Live skate judges have a difficult time accurately processing so much information.

    This becomes clear when we see a Joubert score higher marks for TR than Abbott.
    If Joubert lands the quad his PCS go up. His actual use of TR becomes irrelevant under the IJS.

    IMO this is common rather than the exception......

    It is pretty obvious to most fans this is bogus - or as I like to call it the "CoP voodoo."

    What judges typically do instead is revert to the more sensible 6.0 and based on who they liked better fill in the scores.

    I would always rather see a 5.6 or 5.8 from individual judges so I know what happened as I am watching the event.

    Contrary to Cinquanta's beliefs seeing the individual judges' scores helps keep it in perspective and used to raise the interest for the FANS.

    If Canada or other federations are still giving their skaters/teams the highest marks why hide it?

    ........ because it makes it easier to continue biased judging and to hide it from IOC who is still more than willing to ban skating from the Olympics if yet another scandal erupts........

    When I ponder the great mysteries of the CoP this is what comes into my mind:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-02-2012 at 03:52 PM.

  9. #39
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4
    Grace Gold is one of the best new Jumpers around I think she will take silver at nationals if not Gold She is doing great

  10. #40
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,595
    The hype about Goldie is she has it all. Her SP showed much more elegance. She is maturing fast. There was nothing juniorish about her SP. She looked stunning. Besides beauty, she can jump really well, and she should be able to compete with the best in the world by Sochi. Americans are excited to see this talent develop.

    Maybe Yuna had more medals at 17 but I prefer Gracie. No club foot, unatractive legline to notice in every program. Gracie with luck re her health and physical changes could be a major star in skating.

    I'll cross genders and cultures and instead of saying which lady excites me this much, I will pick the Japanese rockstar kid Hanyu. He is so wonderful at his age. I think Gracie could be our next big star, and will push Ashley. Caroline is still slow with very mediocre basic skating skills. It detracts from her skating a lot for me. It is of course thrilling to see her 3l/3l last season and the pearl spin will be remembered a long time. I hope she surprises me this season and has much better ice coverage.

    Gracie knocked my sox off with her SP dress. She knows glam is good in this sport. Her people are doing great with the all impt packaging for ladies. Someone thought she was like Agnes. Huh? I do not see this at all. Just shows how subjective FS is and how someone sees a superstar and the next "nothing special." I am hoping for Hannah, Samantha, Nina, Angela and the rest too. I expect we will see some great skating at Nationals again this year. I hope confidence fills the building for our ladies.

  11. #41
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    945
    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    The hype about Goldie is she has it all. Her SP showed much more elegance. She is maturing fast. There was nothing juniorish about her SP. She looked stunning. Besides beauty, she can jump really well, and she should be able to compete with the best in the world by Sochi. Americans are excited to see this talent develop.
    Hmmm, I seem to remember hearing the same a few years ago about Mirai....she also had it all...

  12. #42
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,622
    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Hmmm, I seem to remember hearing the same a few years ago about Mirai....she also had it all...
    Well, actually, she did.

    Sha won the U.S. senior championship on her first try, she raised the roof at 2010 senior nationals and made the Olympic team, she finished fourth at the 2010 Olympics behind only Kim, Asada, and Rochette, and she won the short program at 2010 worlds, beating Asada.

    And who's to say she's not in the mix still in 2013?

  13. #43
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    216
    Gracie's short program impressed me too. It is beautifully choreographed and she does it very well. I don't think the same about her free skate this year, maybe it's to early to say, but for me Gracie could improve a lot more in artistry as it not really attractive
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPNMidIq2-w

  14. #44
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, actually, she did.

    Sha won the U.S. senior championship on her first try, she raised the roof at 2010 senior nationals and made the Olympic team, she finished fourth at the 2010 Olympics behind only Kim, Asada, and Rochette, and she won the short program at 2010 worlds, beating Asada.

    And who's to say she's not in the mix still in 2013?
    I totally agree Mathman - who says that Mirai cannot pull an "Ashley" and redeem herself....

  15. #45
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,171
    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe Nero View Post
    True, there are five different categories, but (I thought, Mrs. P, that you might have been responding to something I said above) it is rare to see someone's PCS (from one category to the next) range more than 0.5 to 0.75 points. For instance, no one gets a 8.25 for skating skills, but a 6.5 for interpretation. These things don't seem to be evaluated independently of each other by the judges. This is why I think Gold will have trouble matching Wagner on PCS next season (having seen Gold's SP), even if Gold's skating skills and transitions are very good.
    I get the fact that judges tend to vote in the corridor, both relative to other judges and within the categories themselves. That said, right or wrong, if they show proficiency in a few categories, then the PCS tends to be decent.

    At WTT, Gracie was in the mid 6s in the SP and actually went into the 7s (except in transitions, ironically) in the LP, so Pepo Nero, she's already reached the 7s in her first competition.

    For comparison, when Rachael and Mirai debuted as seniors internationally at Skate America in 2008, they were in the low 6s.

    Perhaps Gracie's skating appears juniorish relative to some of the more seasoned skaters (i.e. Mao Akiko, Carolina, etc.), but when you look at her PCS compared to the rest of the World field, she's not doing too bad. And her PCS will only go up as she continues to do clean programs. So I don't think it's unreasonable that she would be contending for a National senior title.

Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •