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Thread: Finlandia Trophy 2012 Oct 5 - Oct 7

  1. #271
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    IleK, I agree with you! You have good arguments and if somebody didn't get your point, it's not your problem, because you made yourself clear. I think the age rule should be at least 16 or even 17, so we could see real junior and real senior skating. Jumping is not everything although many people here think so.

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTheMusician View Post
    I think the age rule should be at least 16 or even 17, so we could see real junior and real senior skating.
    That's impossible. If it really followed this, in men, it will be OK. But in Ladies, Junior level will be the highest level in figure skating and Senior level will be closer to pro-am competitions.

  3. #273
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    How is ISU supposed to set the rule if puberty comes not exactly at the same time in teen girls' life. Some face it earlier, some a little later, etc.
    I didn't agree with the tone of your post but your thoughts are similar to mine. First of all, next year and after, you will need to be a year older than Julia is now. I support that. However, I do agree puberty does not hit everyone at the same time. For many skaters, it does not hit them at all the way it would hit a normal girl until after their careers are over. (A good example of this is Sasha Cohen, who, let's face it, maintained the body of a young teen throughout her competitive career and only gained weight and curves when she turned to show skating. May be Julia will be the same. Maybe she won't. Time will tell.)

    The real issue is that you don't want to punish girls who do have a mature body and prevent them from competing on the senior level for too long just because you don't want to be unfair to people who are older. I think, body aside, Julia's an okay example of this. She was SO FAR beyond the current range of Juniors it would almost have been painful to watch her stay there. Say, hypothetically, that she is a Cohen and doesn't struggle much with puberty, and against all odds maintains her current jump arsenal. Does anyone really think she should have needed to stay in Juniors until she is 18- four more years? How long should she be forced to compete in Juniors to prove she will keep the jumps? I admit this is rare- but her jumping ability (whether her jumps are small, flutzed, etc or not) is also very rare.

    My point, in one sentence after all this, is that any age will be arbitrary and not catch everyone who hasn't gone through puberty. It is up for older skaters to think about how to improve other components in their programs, in my opinion, not to waste time worrying or complaining about how 15 year olds can jump better.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    That's impossible. If it really followed this, in men, it will be OK. But in Ladies, Junior level will be the highest level in figure skating and Senior level will be closer to pro-am competitions.
    In which scale? Jumps? Yep, that's true. But skating is not just jumps. In Ladies, juniors may be the best jumpers that but that's all they usually have. I have never seen any program which would have been art, mature performance, real interpretion by junior skaters. The best performances has been skated by ladies >18.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTheMusician View Post
    In which scale? Jumps? Yep, that's true. But skating is not just jumps. In Ladies, juniors may be the best jumpers that but that's all they usually have. I have never seen any program which would have been art, mature performance, real interpretion by junior skaters. The best performances has been skated by ladies >18.
    You are wrong. For example Oxana Baiul. She was only 16. Isn't she artistry?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTI0...feature=fvwrel

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    You are wrong. For example Oxana Baiul. She was only 16. Isn't she artistry?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TTI0...feature=fvwrel
    Well, this is not about being right or wrong, it's about opinion. Maybe I should say: "Most of the best performances has been skated by ladies >18".

    And about Oksana's program: it was sweet and very beautiful. But it was ballet on the ice, it wasn't skating art. And most of all, it was the exhibition program. Of course you can show more artistry in exhibition when you don't have to concentrate to the difficult elements. But when you are mature enough, you can do the both.

    Skating is like music: you can be very techincally talented already at young age but is there any interpretation, etc? Of course there are exceptions, especially when it comes to music but very often we see and hear young people who can play but who can't make music. Just like in skating. That's why I would hope the age limit in seniors should be higher. Because skating is just not counting who is the fastest, who jumps the highest jumps, who makes the least mistakes. You can't measure artistry by inches, centimeters and seconds.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTheMusician View Post
    Well, this is not about being right or wrong, it's about opinion. Maybe I should say: "Most of the best performances has been skated by ladies >18".

    Because skating is just not counting who is the fastest, who jumps the highest jumps, who makes the least mistakes. You can't measure artistry by inches, centimeters and seconds.
    I agree but that will always be a problem with the CoP which is asking us to believe it can measure some of these things - and up to a hundredth of a point no less.

    But judging is necessary and many will argue 6.0 was doing the same thing.

    I rarely disagreed with the presentation marks from 6.0 - or atleast not nearly as often or as vehemently as I do with the PCS.

    Maybe as I get older now my memory recalls more of what was pleasant (thowing a bone to the CoP fans)
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-13-2012 at 06:59 AM.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTheMusician View Post
    Well, this is not about being right or wrong, it's about opinion. Maybe I should say: "Most of the best performances has been skated by ladies >18".

    And about Oksana's program: it was sweet and very beautiful. But it was ballet on the ice, it wasn't skating art. And most of all, it was the exhibition program. Of course you can show more artistry in exhibition when you don't have to concentrate to the difficult elements. But when you are mature enough, you can do the both.

    Skating is like music: you can be very techincally talented already at young age but is there any interpretation, etc? Of course there are exceptions, especially when it comes to music but very often we see and hear young people who can play but who can't make music. Just like in skating. That's why I would hope the age limit in seniors should be higher. Because skating is just not counting who is the fastest, who jumps the highest jumps, who makes the least mistakes. You can't measure artistry by inches, centimeters and seconds.
    Oxana's program wasn't skating art, only ballet? I disagree again, she definitely skated. ( I can show you her SP in Lillehammer, she was artistry and she interpreted the music wonderfully.) So there are exceptions. Yes, the artistry can't measure by inches etc. Therefore the most subjective. But I think the high jumps, the less mistakes make the program more beautiful, and more artistry. And don't forget, it's a sport. If someone doesn't meet the requirements of the sports, he never will win.
    But I agree with you Julia program isn't good, but she is unbeliveable talented. I think, you know Rodionova, she is 13, but she is already artistry.

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Oxana's program wasn't skating art, only ballet? I disagree again, she definitely skated. ( I can show you her SP in Lillehammer, she was artistry and she interpreted the music wonderfully.) So there are exceptions. Yes, the artistry can't measure by inches etc. Therefore the most subjective. But I think the high jumps, the less mistakes make the program more beautiful, and more artistry. And don't forget, it's a sport. If someone doesn't meet the requirements of the sports, he never will win.
    But I agree with you Julia program isn't good, but she is unbeliveable talented. I think, you know Rodionova, she is 13, but she is already artistry.
    I didn't say "only" ballet, please don't turn my words upside down. I'm not native English speaker, my mother language is Finnish so there may be some mistakes in my text. But in Oksana's program, it was ballet on the ice and little bit circling between the movements. It doesn't make a program to a skating art. And it's nor worth arguing of one skater - if you think Oksana was very artistic, it's your opinion. I'm speaking of the large scale - most of the young skaters don't have that kind of artistry which comes with age.

    Lipnitskaia is very technically talented, so is Radionova. Both they have artistry like their age, 13-14. Nobody requires and even expects more. They both are on their way to more mature interpretation. But still - it's the thing you can't even compare with Kiira, Alissa, Carolina, Yu-na, etc. Those young talented Russian girls aren't at the same level in interpretation and artistry as our lady skaters. For me skating is not just jumping. If we liked to compare skaters in jumps, we could forget the programs entirely. For me the good package includes the technique AND the artistry of a lady.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnnaTheMusician View Post
    I didn't say "only" ballet, please don't turn my words upside down. I'm not native English speaker, my mother language is Finnish so there may be some mistakes in my text. But in Oksana's program, it was ballet on the ice and little bit circling between the movements. It doesn't make a program to a skating art. And it's nor worth arguing of one skater - if you think Oksana was very artistic, it's your opinion. I'm speaking of the large scale - most of the young skaters don't have that kind of artistry which comes with age.

    Lipnitskaia is very technically talented, so is Radionova. Both they have artistry like their age, 13-14. Nobody requires and even expects more. They both are on their way to more mature interpretation. But still - it's the thing you can't even compare with Kiira, Alissa, Carolina, Yu-na, etc. Those young talented Russian girls aren't at the same level in interpretation and artistry as our lady skaters. For me skating is not just jumping. If we liked to compare skaters in jumps, we could forget the programs entirely. For me the good package includes the technique AND the artistry of a lady.
    Oh, your english is far better than mine!!!!

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