What are you looking forward to most this season?

let`s talk said:

Not maybe but you are wrong. WTT is an ISU event.

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Japan Open is a pro-am event. This event and WTT were funded by one of the participating countries. I don't see how they could be as equal as other ISU events. By the way, Patrick was the only one who has executed a perfect quad. And it was a quad-triple combo.

Blades of Passion said:

Takahashi didn't win the LP with all of those mistakes, as Patrick Chan always does. He deservedly finished 3rd in the LP, but won the competition because of his amazing SP.

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Patrick Chan fell three times in his SP in 2010 Skate Canada. He did not win SP. He was placed 4th after the short program. Yes, he got gold in the end. So did Takahashi at this Japanese Nationals. So what's the point to single out Patrick Chan's falls?

^^^ Your posts can be 'interestig', but too much anti-COP and anti-Chan ranting is

dorispulaski said:

The Yankee Polka as an SD!

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Lynn Rutherford ‏@LynnRutherford

So we are back to Chan bashing. Folks i think we will see Patricks score drop. Sounds like he has stripped out some of his footwork and transitions without Lori Nichol so unless he picks up heavily the technical elements and artistry I think we may see the end of his domination. We will see wihtotu a technical coach how he does. I just do not understand going with a Kathy Johnson who I do not think really is even a skating choreographer type. I hope this has nothing to do with love or lust.

On a more controversial note I would not mind seeing some great good bye skates from the likes of the French (oddly enough) P and B and Joubert and maybe Carolina Kostner. It will not happen but I think they had their chance in the sun, they have worked hard yes, but so has everyone else - it is time they realize their good fortune and move on.

This rule change to a higher penalty for two-footed landings and weak steps into the solo jump in the short program is actually going back in the direction of 6.0 judging.

Here is Michael Weiss at the 2002 Olympics (skating before a disappointing half-full house, by the way, and in the first-to-skate position that 6.0 also penalized). According to the commentator (Scott Hamilton) he was penalized two points for double-footing the quad in combination and maybe one more point for his steps into the triple Lutz. His tech scores ranged from 4.9 to 5.3 for a pretty good skate with a quad combo and without a fall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGCD1OmxkRM

Weiss finished 8th in the SP. Plushenko, with a fall on his quad and no combo (-4 deduction) got fourth.

Bluebonnet said:

Patrick Chan fell three times in his SP in 2010 Skate Canada. He did not win SP. He was placed 4th after the short program. Yes, he got gold in the end. So did Takahashi at this Japanese Nationals. So what's the point to single out Patrick Chan's falls?

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Chan fell three times at Japan Open and won. He fell three times at Cup of Russia and only lost because of a scoring technicality (doing "too many" combinations). He made numerous huge errors at GPF 2011 and Worlds 2012 and still won. He is more overscored more than anyone else in the history of the sport, end of story. Actually, it's probably not the end of the story since it will likely keep happening.

Blades of Passion said:

Actually, it's probably not the end of the story since it will likely keep happening.

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And many will keep ranting until their own favourites win by 10 falls.
Hanyu Yuzuru will win by 10 falls! Move over Chan!

Mathman said:

This rule change to a higher penalty for two-footed landings and weak steps into the solo jump in the short program is actually going back in the direction of 6.0 judging.

Here is Michael Weiss at the 2002 Olympics (skating before a disappointing half-full house, by the way, and in the first-to-skate position that 6.0 also penalized). According to the commentator (Scott Hamilton) he was penalized two points for double-footing the quad in combination and maybe one more point for his steps into the triple Lutz. His tech scores ranged from 4.9 to 5.3 for a pretty good skate with a quad combo and without a fall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGCD1OmxkRM

Weiss finished 8th in the SP. Plushenko, with a fall on his quad and no combo (-4 deduction) got fourth.

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Yes, he was the first to skate - so many fans had not arrived yet. Don't forget the difference between a half empty arena that has been sold out and holds 14-18 thousand people as opposed to what we see today - smaller arenas that hold 3 -9 thousand peole that are half empty during the entire event.

You are the "mathman" so I guess you can do the math .

Interesting you mention Plushenko. Where do suppose Plush would have been placed if he fell three times during the SP?

And are you suggesting that Michael Weiss was Plushenko's equal as a skater? Holy cow!

Chan DESERVES to win with the falls, simply because his skating is better than the others'! His edges are deeper, his choreography is more difficult and has more transitions than anyone else in the world, the quality of his elements is amazing, so the GOEs in the good elements are high enough to counterbalance the mistakes, and I think it's correct. This is the good thing in the CoP system: you don't just have to count the mistakes in the jumps and give deductions, you have to compare the difficulty, the quality, the position of every element, and everything can make the difference, even a step sequence. And, unlike most of you, I like this! Like in 2010, I completely agreed when Lysacek won over Plushy, he was more artistic, more complete, his program had the "full package", Plushy did the jumps and nothing else (at least, for me)... And, let me say that falling is normal when you try a 2-quads/7-triples program, concentrating also on the spins and the steps!
And, sorry, but I don't think Chan's programs is Nice had "huge errors": one silly fall at the end and a popped jump in the FS, a couple of little losses of balance in the SP... who skated better? He deserved that world title (as well as the first)! The crowd that booed him evidently didn't understand anything about this new system...

FSGMT said:

Chan DESERVES to win with the falls, simply because his skating is better than the others'! The crowd that booed him evidently didn't understand anything about this new system...

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Do you or any others see that as a good thing....that the crowd doesn't understand?


If a coach of Mishin's stature and experience did not understand the results in Vancouver is there any chance....any chance at all that fans ever will?

Does anyone realisitcally expect for skating to grow and flourish when the majority of casual fans don't understand how winers are determined?

Good luck with that

Skater Boy, I agree that I'm rather rooting for some of the French skaters this season - I hope Silethe recovers from injury and places top ten at Worlds. I hope Zahorski/Miart have a strong season after last season's injury. I'm hoping Joubert wins CoC and eventually has an Olympics he can be proud of.

FSGMT said:

Chan DESERVES to win with the falls, simply because his skating is better than the others'! His edges are deeper, his choreography is more difficult and has more transitions than anyone else in the world, the quality of his elements is amazing, so the GOEs in the good elements are high enough to counterbalance the mistakes, and I think it's correct. This is the good thing in the CoP system: you don't just have to count the mistakes in the jumps and give deductions, you have to compare the difficulty, the quality, the position of every element, and everything can make the difference, even a step sequence. And, unlike most of you, I like this! Like in 2010, I completely agreed when Lysacek won over Plushy, he was more artistic, more complete, his program had the "full package", Plushy did the jumps and nothing else (at least, for me)... And, let me say that falling is normal when you try a 2-quads/7-triples program, concentrating also on the spins and the steps!
And, sorry, but I don't think Chan's programs is Nice had "huge errors": one silly fall at the end and a popped jump in the FS, a couple of little losses of balance in the SP... who skated better? He deserved that world title (as well as the first)! The crowd that booed him evidently didn't understand anything about this new system...

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Vancouver's scores:

1. Peformance/Execution 8.8(Plushy)/8.5(Evan)

2. Choreography/Composition 8.2(Plushy)/8.35(Evan)

3. Interpretation 8.75(Plushy)/8.3(Evan).

It seems Evan wasn't more artistic like Plushy. It's an American delusion, which spread to the American public, it wanted to explain why it was Evan the winner. But it's a big mistake. Evan won because, he was overscored in SP, or Plushy was underscored in SP. Those scores were so close, Evan had chance to win. The judges could calculate very well. The LP scores were correct.

FSGMT said:

Chan DESERVES to win with the falls, simply because his skating is better than the others'! His edges are deeper, his choreography is more difficult and has more transitions than anyone else in the world, the quality of his elements is amazing, so the GOEs in the good elements are high enough to counterbalance the mistakes, and I think it's correct. This is the good thing in the CoP system: you don't just have to count the mistakes in the jumps and give deductions, you have to compare the difficulty, the quality, the position of every element, and everything can make the difference, even a step sequence. And, unlike most of you, I like this! Like in 2010, I completely agreed when Lysacek won over Plushy, he was more artistic, more complete, his program had the "full package", Plushy did the jumps and nothing else (at least, for me)... And, let me say that falling is normal when you try a 2-quads/7-triples program, concentrating also on the spins and the steps!
And, sorry, but I don't think Chan's programs is Nice had "huge errors": one silly fall at the end and a popped jump in the FS, a couple of little losses of balance in the SP... who skated better? He deserved that world title (as well as the first)! The crowd that booed him evidently didn't understand anything about this new system...

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No, he doesn't. If Chan is making multiple mistakes - and please don't minimize them - he is not showing his skills and ability to best advantage, and he does not deserve to win if others are skating well. At the very least, he should not have won the LP at Worlds, when others did skate well, and he most certainly did not. It's very nice to pack your programs with difficulty, but you still have to execute - if you can't, then skate a simpler program. It looks bad when someone makes multiple serious errors and still wins, no matter who that skater is. Specifically re Chan, he sometimes makes mistakes that have nothing to do with the difficulty of his programs but, I suspect, have a lot to do with not concentrating and/or knowing that he can get away with sloppy skating. I don't care how good your edges are, that's not right.

Lysacek isn't more artistic than anyone, though he did check off more IJS boxes than Plushenko. None of the men in Vancouver really deserved to win, so I say make Yu-Na the OGM for singles skating and be done with it.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Skater Boy, I agree that I'm rather rooting for some of the French skaters this season - I hope Silethe recovers from injury and places top ten at Worlds. I hope Zahorski/Miart have a strong season after last season's injury. I'm hoping Joubert wins CoC and eventually has an Olympics he can be proud of.

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I don't think Silete is coming back this season. It'll be months before she can get back to on ice-training; her focus needs to be on rehab this year and skating in 2013-14. I think Dai was off the ice for five months after his ACL surgery, and from what I understand, Silete's injury was even more severe. So I'll wish her the best - I really like her - and until she's back, I'm hoping that Meite can skate well and qualify two spots for Sochi (a tall order, I know).

I'm with you re Zahorski/Miart.

Joubert's home rink is shutting down in a couple of weeks and a new one will be built in its place. He's reportedly going to go to Paris - training at Bercy & Champigny-sur-Marne, based out of INSEP. Hopefully the change will work out well - he seemed to be getting back on track at the end of the season, and I'd hate for that to be disrupted.

Skater Boy said:

So we are back to Chan bashing. Folks i think we will see Patricks score drop. Sounds like he has stripped out some of his footwork and transitions without Lori Nichol so unless he picks up heavily the technical elements and artistry I think we may see the end of his domination. We will see wihtotu a technical coach how he does. I just do not understand going with a Kathy Johnson who I do not think really is even a skating choreographer type. I hope this has nothing to do with love or lust.

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Sounds like we may see the end of his domination this season. But next year, he'll find a new technical coach and go back to Lori Nichole - wishful thinking of mine.

To me, end of his domination this season is not a bad thing for Patrick. He's not used to losing anymore these past two years. It might help him see himself from different perspectives.

My biggest fear for this season: To hear Patrick's detractors scream after each of his competition, "How did he win?!"

Blades of Passion said:

Chan fell three times at Japan Open and won.

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That was because the others were worse. Do you actually believe that the judges would slight the Japanese Federation who initiated and funded this event, and the Japanese audiences without a good reason? I don't.

janetfan said:

Does anyone realisitcally expect for skating to grow and flourish when the majority of casual fans don't understand how winers are determined?

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Sounds like casual fans understood 6.0 any better.

Bluebonnet said:

I don't see how they could be as equal as other ISU events.

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That's your problem. WTT is the official ISU event and Dai's SP record score of 94.00 is on the ISU site as a record score.

SkateFiguring said:

Two footed landings are incomplete landing whereas a fall can be after a completed landing

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It's also can be an underotated quad with a fall, or two-footed quad with a fall, or whatever crappy jump with the fall, now it equals to the same mandatory -3 GOE as for two-footed, or in SP with not enough steps, or with step-out (minimum -2 or -3 GOE). You really don't get it or just pretend to? Okay, I'll be more visual: one guy landed a gorgeous rotated quad and get -3 GOE for the lack of preceeding steps. Another guy has no preceeding steps, underrotates his quad, two footed it and then fall. He gets the same -3 GOE as the first guy. They rule is clear designed for the benefit of a falling guy. Even Chan ubers cannot be so into unfair play.

Bluebonnet said:

That was because the others were worse.

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Gachi was better and deserved to win JO last year.

Do you actually believe that the judges would slight the Japanese Federation who initiated and funded this event, and the Japanese audiences without a good reason? I don't.

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Do you in fact know who pay the biggest share in JO? Seems like you have no idea. You just keep ranting that Japan is corrupted because Chan didn't win WTT.

let`s talk said:

That's your problem. WTT is the official ISU event and Dai's SP record score of 94.00 is on the ISU site as a record score.

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Then hold on to this last straw! I have no objection that Takahashi has skated his heart out at that time (with the finger thing, of course. But I fear Deedee is reading it. So I won't say more of it.)

let`s talk said:

one guy landed a gorgeous rotated quad and get -3 GOE for the lack of preceeding steps. Another guy has no preceeding steps, underrotates his quad, two footed it and then fall. He gets the same -3 GOE as the first guy. They rule is clear designed for the benefit of a falling guy. Even Chan ubers cannot be so into unfair play.

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Correct me if I'm wrong. I think for the first guy, he gets -3 GOEs for lack of required preceding steps. But he gets full credit for his perfect quad jump as well as +3 GOEs for his quad. For the other guy, he gets -3 GOEs for lack of preceding steps. Also he gets UR call, and -3 GOEs for two footed and then fall. No positive GOEs for his quad. He also gets a mandatory -1 deduction for the fall. Sounds like there are big difference between them.

It's time to get back to the topic, everyone!

What am I looking forward to most this season?

-good seasons for Brian Joubert up to Sochi: 1) finally winning CoC and complete 6 GP wins, yay! (sorry Dai...but you do have NHK, right? ) 2) a podium finish at Worlds one more time, AND 3) have 2 great performances at the Olympic Games (finally) so that he can go out of his competitive career on a high note.

-US Mens Nationals: with Evan and Johnny's comeback, who will go 1-2 finish?!
-Daisuke to land 2 quads in LP and finally goes back to where he left (2008 4CC)
-Mao to perform well, so that we get to see many of Mao's 'angelic' smiles!
-which team will come top in the pre-Olympic season; Virtue/Moir or Davis/White, Savchenko/Szolkowy or Volosozhar/Trankov
-fair judging and placements

Above all, however, the most important one for me is...
We can get to see many of dazzling and brilliant performances from the top skaters, so that makes me believe it's still worthy to watch figure skating! :yes:

Let the season begin!!! arty:

janetfan said:

Interesting you mention Plushenko. Where do suppose Plush would have been placed if he fell three times during the SP?

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I don't think it would have been possible for any skater to win with three falls under the 6.0 system.

Actually, Plushenko was scored exactly right for his performance. A fall was a mandatory 4 point deduction, and Plushenko's technical scores ranged from 5.3 to 5.5. Without the fall it would have been 5.7 to 5.9.

And are you suggesting that Michael Weiss was Plushenko's equal as a skater? Holy cow!

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Plushenko was reigning world champion in a sport where reputation counts for a lot. (So is Chan. ) Plus, Plushenko skated fast and with his usual swashbuckling style despite the mistake. It is to the credit of the Salt Lake City judges that they scored Plushenko correctly and did not try to hold him up by ignoring the technical error.