How Would You Explain And Apply GOE Rules? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

How Would You Explain And Apply GOE Rules?

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Several good suggestions here - but none that might help make the scoring even slightly easier for casual fans to understand.

Is it just a foregone conclusion that casual viewers don't get the CoP very well so no point in making the system less complex?

My comments were directed in response to the Topic header that asked "how would you explain it" regarding the GOE's.

I'm not sure what Bluebonnet's intentions were. But since the specific question asked in the original post presupposed an understanding of the basics of the scoring system and an understanding of certain kinds of technical skating errors, I didn't read it as "How would you explain the basics of the system to casual viewers so they'll enjoy watching better?" That's why no one was answering that question before you rephrased it in those terms.

Bluebonnet can explain the intentions behind the thread if s/he so desires.

You did attempt to answer that and your comments were pretty good but I don't think the idea of "self-education" works in reality any better than Romney's idea of "self-deportation" as a solution to immigation problems. ;)

I think if US Skating came up with a good way for NBC to present the CoP to fans it would be a good thing.
So far I don't think they have and don't think they can explain it in the time that couldbe alloted during a typical broadcast.

I agree. Maybe we can take that conversation back to this thread, which it so happens was started in response to a post by Bluebonnet and ends with a post by Bluebonnet. Both focused on Patrick Chan -- but the question is larger than any one skater.

I like mskater's idea best but mostly because it is an attempt to streamline it.

Which idea? About how to penalize falls? That's a nitty-gritty technical question, not one of interest to casual fans except insofar as the results might coincide more with their casual expectations of how costly a fall should be in terms of final placements.

You made some good points as well....but I did disagree with a comment you made several posts ago......something like too much GOE makes it a little subjective.

Isn;t GOE purely subjective?

Not purely. There are specific required GOE reductions for specific kinds of errors, so when those errors occur there is usually unanimous or near-unanimous agreement on the negative GOE. Positive GOEs are more subjective, but as Mathman pointed out the ISU has recently attempted to standardize them more by offering judges guidelines in terms of bullet points.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
If a person is convicted of multiple crimes sentences can be concurrent or consecutive. The -3 in goe being the max makes it so the negatives are concurrent rather than accumulative. Maybe if the range was larger like 10 you could do more negatives or just wait til the end of a program and have a new thing where it is deducted but not 6.0. Something different.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
So instead of 1 point for each fall, you deduct 1% off the entire TSS per fall. So, if the skater falls one time and the TSS is 200 points, the loss of score is 1% or 2 points and will score a 198. If the total program is worth 45 points, you deduct 1% off the TSS or 0.45 points and score 44.55 points. To implement it would be simple, you change the 1 to an algorithm in IJScalc that multiplies TSS by 1% and then deducts it off the TSS

Do you think that better skaters need to bear more risks than they've already had from trying the hardest things?

We've argued before that there are many reasons why skating is less popular with audiences in the US now than 10 or 20 years ago. I don't think anyone would argue that it is less popular now than 30+ years ago.

Some of those reasons have absolutely nothing to do with skating itself and more to do with changes in media and changes in other sports and other forms of entertainment.

Other reasons are definitely about skating but not about the scoring system.

If the goal is to increase popularity with audiences, then let's look (in another thread) at varying ways to increase popularity with audiences of the sport as it now exists.

Undoubtedly there will be small changes to the scoring every year and someday there will be other significant changes. But they should be developed in relation to what the athletes are doing, not to some marketer's idea of what audiences who don't know a lutz from a mohawk might want to see.

Exactly!
 
Last edited:

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If you say a jump is worth 5 points and the jump was done well it could be worth 7 or if it was poorly it would be worth 3 but you don't really know until all the scores are released. So you hava a landed jump maybe with a hand down and gets all GOE but so many years of 6.0 was all about flawed jumps being a total loss.

That was never true. If the commentators ever said so they were oversimplifying.

Here's the latest 6.0 short program deduction sheet: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_rules/isu_short_program_deductions.htm

Notice that small to medium errors, such as hand down on a jump (0.1 to 0.2) take smaller deductions than more serious errors such as falls.

In long programs, judges could give partial credit for jumps that were completed with flaws -- how much was up to each individual judge. They could also decide whether to give more credit for, e.g., trying and rotating a triple axel without landing successfully vs. a successful double axel. There were no rules spelled out about how or whether to reward risk, so it was just up to each judge to decide, in the context of whatever instructions might have been given by the referees about what the ISU wanted to encourage that year.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Do you think that better skaters need to bear more risks than they've already had from trying the hardest things?

Yes, I do. I am held to a different standard at work than my peers due to what I know and how I do my job even though our titles are the same. In most companies, the higher you climb up the ladder, the more your compensation is tied to something risky (bonus structures are typically the higher the position the higher your percentage of variable compensation). Skating is a risk/reward proposition just like a business and if you take a lot more risks (put out the hardest content) cleanly then you should be rewarded (most points). If you but out harder content but make mistakes, you should be penalized greater. It still shouldn't affect outcomes but I think it would make more sense to the general public.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
We've argued before that there are many reasons why skating is less popular with audiences in the US now than 10 or 20 years ago. I don't think anyone would argue that it is less popular now than 30+ years ago.

Some of those reasons have absolutely nothing to do with skating itself and more to do with changes in media and changes in other sports and other forms of entertainment.

Other reasons are definitely about skating but not about the scoring system.


.

I disagree about the popularity of skating now vs 30 years ago.

Looking back Dorothy was wildly popular in USA, and her exposre in TV specials, commercials and IceShows made her profile miles higher than any of today's skaters. She was also the star of a major ice show.

If skating is as popular now as thirty years ago I would ask "where are the Ice shows?" Where are the Primetime TV specials?
They are in Japan and Korea but not N. America.


Randy and Tai were popular enough to do TV commercials and made many guest appearances on TV shows. There is no Pairs team that is even close to being in their league today using popularity as the measuring stick.

Looking at Canada it's just wrong to think Patrick is anywhere near Toller in terms of popularity.
Toller was making TV specials and was a household name in Canada besides being so popular in USA and Europe.

Then there was John Curry who had specials that were shown on primetime TV in USA and many other countries. Curry's show performed in Madison Square Garden. Today we see skating events primarily in lower rent towns and smaller arenas.

Thirty years ago we had Professional skating competitions which offered fans achance to see many of their favorites from the previous Olmypic cycle.
Where are the Professional competitions today?

I could go on but it doesn't feel necessary.
Skating beyond any doubt was much more popular in N.America 30 years ago.

You mention media....and with so much more media available today it is quite clear CoP skating is not popular enough to take advantage of it.
Ice Network losing the GP is just another in the continuing blows against skating.

Maybe we need to go back 50 years to find a time when skating was less popular than it is today. Then we are talking about a lack of exposure as TV coverage was just beginning. But even then the Ice Shows did well enough to offer many Americans a chance to experience skating.

I do agree with you that their have been changes in sports entertainment. Many sports are flourishing as they have been able to adapt and change with the times.

It seems obvious to me that skating with it's new scoring system has failed to capture the imagination of N.American audiences the way it did in the past.
 
Last edited:

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Yes, I do. I am held to a different standard at work than my peers due to what I know and how I do my job even though our titles are the same. In most companies, the higher you climb up the ladder, the more your compensation is tied to something risky (bonus structures are typically the higher the position the higher your percentage of variable compensation). Skating is a risk/reward proposition just like a business and if you take a lot more risks (put out the hardest content) cleanly then you should be rewarded (most points). If you but out harder content but make mistakes, you should be penalized greater. It still shouldn't affect outcomes but I think it would make more sense to the general public.

Will this bigger risk and bigger reward/punishment idea hurt sport like between 2008 and 2010? Quad is the jump that will fall or make mistakes the most.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Will this bigger risk and bigger reward/punishment idea hurt sport like between 2008 and 2010? Quad is the jump that will fall or make mistakes the most.

Do you have any statistics or links to articles that backup your claims that skating was "hurt" in 2008-2009?

Or anything other than your opinion that since the value of the quad was increased CoP skating has had a rebirth of sorts with interest up?

Hasn't the GP has had a reduction in particpating skaters during this period due to financial problems from a lack of TV revenues and less attendance at Live events?

Is it easier or more difficult for USA fans to watch the GP events Live this season?
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Do you have any statistics or links to articles that backup your claims that skating was "hurt" in 2008-2009?

Or anything other than your opinion that since the value of the quad was increased CoP skating has had a rebirth of sorts with interest up?

I wasn't talking about the attendence and interests for figure skating which you have been so intensely into and dragged almost every topic into that direction.;)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Well, then, how was skating hurt? Certainly, attendance and revenues are two legitimate ways of measuring the popularity of a sport.

If you are going to argue that those two things are not important measures to you, that's fine, but then what is an important measure to you?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Possible considerations about the "health" of the sport:

*attendance at live events

*existence of live events at the level that paying spectators would be interested in
(and maybe level of interest by diehard fans in attending live competitions below elite levels with low or no ticket costs)

*amount of broadcast coverage and amount paid to federations by the networks for the rights to cover those events, and the TV ratings they achieve

*availability and popularity of live and on-demand online videos of elite and non-elite competitions

*existence of "made-for-TV" events

*existence of competitive opportunities for juniors and other skaters at levels not of interest to the general public/networks

*numbers of participants in all levels and disciplines of organized skating

*numbers of participants at (junior and) senior level of the four Olympic disciplines

*satisfaction of with the fairness/explicability of results and the aesthetic value of the performances by
-the general public (largely irrelevant in non-Olympic years)
-casual skating fans
-diehard skating fans who frequent internet discussions :)
-officials
-former-skater expert commentators on TV
-current elite competitors
-grass-roots competitors

If we're looking at a global perspective and not just at the health within one country, then we might want to ask about the number of federations participating and the variety of countries represented on the elite podiums, in addition to expanding all of the above questions to more or all of those federations.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
I'm so sick of people blaming the new scoring system which by the way is not new. Like people are so stupid they can't go to a website and learn about rules and get educated. The ISU has all of the PDFs on the website for those who choose to find it, just like the NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, etc....Skating is one of a few sports I follow and the scoring system is one of the easiest to understand.

Yes, judging is subjective but I can't tell you how many time a Sunday I'm yelling at a ref, ump or
official to open their eyes because they made a bad call, and they have instant replay and still get it wrong!

I would love to see more skating on TV with commentators who know what they are talking about, not just fluffy garbage no one cares about; I think that would bring in far more viewers than anything else. Don't forget when Dorothy or Tai and Randy were on there were only 3 Channels to watch, you didn't have much choice.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I'm so sick of people blaming the new scoring system which by the way is not new. Like people are so stupid they can't go to a website and learn about rules and get educated. The ISU has all of the PDFs on the website for those who choose to find it, just like the NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, etc....Skating is one of a few sports I follow and the scoring system is one of the easiest to understand.

Yes, judging is subjective but I can't tell you how many time a Sunday I'm yelling at a ref, ump or
official to open their eyes because they made a bad call, and they have instant replay and still get it wrong!

I would love to see more skating on TV with commentators who know what they are talking about, not just fluffy garbage no one cares about; I think that would bring in far more viewers than anything else. Don't forget when Dorothy or Tai and Randy were on there were only 3 Channels to watch, you didn't have much choice.

Fair enough - now since it is so easy for you would you mind answering the question asked here: How would you explain and apply the GOE rules?

For such a simple question it seems everybody here has a different idea about it.
 
Last edited:

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
Fair enough - now since it is so easy for you would you mind answering the question asked here: How would you explain and apply the GOE rules?

I'd be happy to refer you to someone who has already answer all your questions in much better detail that I ever could. Thanks for asking. :biggrin:

If you have any further questions or to learn more or even apply to be a judge, please contact your local skating rink. All judging is done on a volunteer basis. ;)

PS, I love most everyone's answers.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
To Bluebonnet, I would ask, is the point of this thread to ask "How would you explain GOE rules and how to apply them to someone who wants to put in time studying and analyzing to understand what the judges are supposed to be doing?" Or is it "How would you explain GOE rules and how to apply them to casual fans who want to sit back on their couches and feel that they are competent to understand figure skating judging after a five-minute explanation?"

For janetfan, I would ask, "How would you explain short program base marks and deductions and how to apply them?" Be sure to offer an explanation of how a skater can fall on a jump combination or other required element and still deservedly come out ahead of a skater with no apparent errors.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
For janetfan, I would ask, "How would you explain short program base marks and deductions and how to apply them?" Be sure to offer an explanation of how a skater can fall on a jump combination or other required element and still deservedly come out ahead of a skater with no apparent errors.

Leaving out a thousand possible variables in today's skating there is only one asnwer and it is brief.

The skater who is awarded the most points wins.

Nothing else matters.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yes, that is true in the current system, and a very succinct statement of that truth.

Sorry, I really meant to ask "How would you explain short program base marks and deductions IN THE 6.0 SYSTEM and how to apply them?" I.e., I don't think it was any simpler to explain or understand than GOE rules.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Yes, that is true in the current system, and a very succinct statement of that truth.

Sorry, I really meant to ask "How would you explain short program base marks and deductions IN THE 6.0 SYSTEM and how to apply them?" I.e., I don't think it was any simpler to explain or understand than GOE rules.

That may be true but would you say a casual fan today seeing a score of "170" has a better idea of what happened than a fan who saw two sets of comparitive marks - first technical marks followed by presentation marks?

With very little help from an announcer would a fan get a bit of a feeling at where this skater excelled or perhaps failed?
What about a fan getting to see marks posted by the judges and the federations they represent?

Might that not have a little more interest than an anonymous score only given as a number like 150?

BTW - here is a question for you:

Why do you suppose the fans expressed such displeasure with the Men's LPs scores at Worlds last season?

Were the fans wrong to jeer the results?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
That was never true. If the commentators ever said so they were oversimplifying.

Here's the latest 6.0 short program deduction sheet: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_rules/isu_short_program_deductions.htm

Notice that small to medium errors, such as hand down on a jump (0.1 to 0.2) take smaller deductions than more serious errors such as falls.

In long programs, judges could give partial credit for jumps that were completed with flaws -- how much was up to each individual judge. They could also decide whether to give more credit for, e.g., trying and rotating a triple axel without landing successfully vs. a successful double axel. There were no rules spelled out about how or whether to reward risk, so it was just up to each judge to decide, in the context of whatever instructions might have been given by the referees about what the ISU wanted to encourage that year.

I heard that a lot from commentators. Obviously there were some exceptions to this like when Plushenko fell on his quad in the SP in SLC or when Midori Ito fell in the SP in 1992 and then fell again in FS but most of the time the depicted it as total loss.

With the other stuff about fans going to the ISU website there is such a huge behavior shift that has not happened and that is going to real sheets of points when for so long over many many decades there was 6.0 where the judges decided technical merit and artistic merit and there were guidelines but not so extensive now. Pouring over the numbers in figure skating still is relatively new and stats like baseball stats and statistics and innings and quarters and yards and runs - I am mixing baseball and football but those are two sports where fans really go over all the numbers a lot and that culture of going over numbers a lot needs to transfer to figure skating even though for generations there was so much simpler but complex in its own way 6.0 but still pretty clear. And people still don't want to even distinguish jumps and COP makes that so much more important. It was so vague for so long and now this hyper specificity is still hurting the popularity.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I'd be happy to refer you to someone who has already answer all your questions in much better detail that I ever could. Thanks for asking. :biggrin:

If you have any further questions or to learn more or even apply to be a judge, please contact your local skating rink. All judging is done on a volunteer basis. ;)

PS, I love most everyone's answers.

Thanks but no thanks. Reading the CoP bible is something I wouldn't force upon my worst enemy.

You on the other hand should feel free to spend your lesiure time reading through the ISU documents if it makes you happy.

But don't get to caught up in them - because the rules will probably change again before you finish reading :p
 
Last edited:
Top