State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season | Page 6 | Golden Skate

State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
There's another possibility when speculating about Mirai and only one GP so far. And that is that Alissa is unlikely to be ready for NHK and will pull out, leaving the spot open for another pick, which would logically be Mirai because of her ranking on the substitute list and also (from the host's point of view) that she would generate the sort of interest that some of the other foreign skater options might not. Mirai's camp may be gambling on that and making her "unavailable" for other options that come up prior, in the hope that a last minute substitution would go her way. Assuming they are allowed to do that--I don't know the ISU rules. Perhaps her camp, Alissa's camp, USFSA, and the hosts of NHK may be privy to information we are not.

I have found it quite a stretch to think that with her surgery and recovery, that Alissa would be in competition form this season, much less by NHK.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
this is typical some skaters will be passed over in favor of the hailed
next skaters to beat, I don't think Mirai or Caroline have the US backing anymore
they are focusing on Gracie, Ashley and Agnes :(

And yet we have some very respected posters here who are never shy about proclaiming the fairness of US Skating. They mention terms like "mission statement" and "for the benefit of participating skaters."

Did I miss something here - is Mirai not a "participating skater"? Are there several skaters who were given two assignments that have not equaled Mirai's Intl record?

Flatt bombed the GPF and Worlds and got two assignments the following season..... along with Skate America just about every season.

No one has been more up and down than Alissa (Ashley is close, no;)) and even coming off a major injury US Skating made sure to give her what she wanted this season.

Why is Mirai seemingly held to a different standard? Why is our best Japanese-American skater sent to CoC just about every season?
This season, with the political and nationalistic tensions it seems particularly uncaring of US Skating to send Mirai off to CoC yet again.

My feeling is there must be factors at work here that I don't understand.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Okay.
USFS has no power at all to give a GP second event to anyone, except at Skate America. The only events to which they can Assign skaters are Senior B's & such, Skate America (3 slots), 4CCs & Worlds. And they can negotiate with other federations to get them to take one of our skaters for their host pick. But they can't force them to take any skater.

Now let's look at Mirai's situation. She finished 7th at US Nationals, and was assigned 1st alternate to Worlds last year. She didn't make the GPF. She did get a medal at CoC (silver) last year.

Mirai is on USFS Team B along with:
http://www.usfsa.org/Athletes.asp?id=209

Alissa Czisny
Caroline Zhang
Mirai Nagasu
Christina Gao
Agnes Zawadzki
Gracie Gold


Already we see some favoritism FOR Mirai, because she could easily have been assigned to Team C, as was Rachael Flatt.
This means Mirai gets more funding than Flatt.

How did USFS do that? They put in a bogus rule for Team B. Buried amongst the Spam Cans and other usual rules, they added this opportunity to get someone on Team B:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=350

•World Team 1st Alternate in the 2012-13 season
And that is why Mirai, and not Christina, Agnes, Caroline, or Rachael, was the first team alternate for Worlds.
USFS Favoritism. For Mirai

However, being on Team B does not get you out of having to qualify for US Nationals by competing in regionals and sectionals. If you finished 6th or 7th at US Nationals, you are not prequalified for Nationals. If you finished 5th or higher you are. But there are other ways:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Events.asp?id=490
■Placing in the top four at the current season's sectional championships
■Placing in the top five in a senior event at the previous year's U.S. Championships
■Winning a medal at the most recent Olympic Winter Games
■Winning a medal at the previous year's World Championships
■Advancing to the current season's Grand Prix Final or Junior Grand Final
■Earning an "international bye" based on proximity of an international assignment in the current season to the sectional championships

From time to time, it has been 6th and higher, but I've never seen 7th pre qualify you.
You will note that Mirai does not meet any of those requirements to get out Sectionals and Regionals. Neither does Rachael.

But Mirai meets the one about having a senior assignment close to the same time. For BOTH sectionals and regionals.

You can get byes if you are competing at an international competition at roughly the same time as Sectionals and Regionals.
Mirai competes in SW Pacifics Regionals and Pacific Coast Sectionals
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=24616

Southwest Pacifics start 10/12 so Mirai Was Assigned by USFS to Finlandia which is close enough, as it runs through Oct. 7th. Consequently, she does not have to go to Regionals.

Sectionals is the first week of November or so.

Cup of China is 11/2
Pacific Coast Sectionals are 11/9
Therefore, Mirai does not have to do Sectionals either.

Consequently, Mirai will get to US Nationals without qualifying.

I would call that beaucoup favoritism for Mirai from USFS.

YMMV

USFS's lowest priority has always been given the folks at Skate America the choice of skaters they'd like to see.
And in this case, it's in Mirai's best interest to have CoC too.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Top seniors get free rides to next nationals, even if they do very poorly, rules be darned. I remember Alissa Czisny finished 10th at nationals and got a bye to the next nationals the same way as Mirai, by going to a GP event. It was done the same way, she -technically- had to attend sectionals but the timing of her GP event got her a bye. Traditionally, seniors in this situation get GP events that coincidentally matches up with their sectionals, so it's not like the USFSA did Mirai some grand, one-time favor.

At the very least, there are some written rules for figure skating. if you think this is bad, the US Gymnastics has no criteria at all. Literally, a bunch of people go into a back room and choose which gymnasts go to the Olympics and Worlds. What few rules exist are bent willy nilly. Why do they have competitions at all? Everyone could save a lot of time and effort if they simply emailed Martha Kayoli and asked her what she wants.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Okay.
USFS has no power at all to give a GP second event to anyone, except at Skate America. The only events to which they can Assign skaters are Senior B's & such, Skate America (3 slots), 4CCs & Worlds. And they can negotiate with other federations to get them to take one of our skaters for their host pick. But they can't force them to take any skater.

Now let's look at Mirai's situation. She finished 7th at US Nationals, and was assigned 1st alternate to Worlds last year. She didn't make the GPF. She did get a medal at CoC (silver) last year.

.

Mirai was one of three US Ladies along with Ashley and Alissa to win a senior Intl ISU event last season. Mirai won Nebelhorn, and also silver at CoC.
The season before she medaled at 4CC and Natls - also at a GP....was it TEB?

How is Mirai "lucky" to have skaters with less success at senior ISU events be given two GP assignments to her one?

Whatever you think - your argument of "favortism" for Mirai feels very weak to me. :confused:

You mentioned Rachael - has she ever won a senior ISU event? Has she medaled at 4CC in the last two seasons? Have her Intl scores been higher than Mirai? Have Christina or Agnes been more successful at senior ISU events for that matter?

Your logic might find them superior to Mirai - mine, looking at the records and Intl results sees it a bit differently.

I could see your point if Mirai was 24....but she is just 19. How old is Christina? Same age? Agnes is 18 and Gracie is 17......Mirai finished 4th at the Olympics and won the Worlds SP when she was 16.

BTW, Brightphoton's post #105 sort of debunks several of your points.....rules are rules - and then there is the reality of what happens when US Skating picks their favorites.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
brightphoton actually reinforced my point-Mirai, like Alissa, is of the sort that USFS bends the rules for, or, rather, has the rules set up to be sure favorites, like Mirai, are at Nationals. In other words, they are not discriminating against her, they are discriminating FOR her.

You, OTOH, are wondering why she isn't at Skate America--and it's because she needs to be at CoC & Finlandia to take advantage of the rule bends they are giving her. To do Skate America for her, they would have to change when her regionals & sectionals are, and sectionals particularly are all at the same time, give or take a day one way or another.

Indeed USFS has plenty of practice bending rules for people who do badly at US nationals that they want to favor, because of Alissa. People they don't like, (as say Tonya Harding back when she finished 7th at US Nationals) had to go to regionals & sectionals.

Mirai doesn't.

That would be the difference.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
USFS assigns no one to GP events except SA which is reserved for the US Champion and two skaters who the US Champion *should* be able to beat (ie, not a real challenger and based on what you all seem to think who are arguing that USFS is "against Mirai" then they *shouldn't* pick her as she would challenge Ashley at SA, so your logic is circular and/or flawed). Mirai was guaranteed 1 GP event based on her scores from last year, which she got. She tanked at Nationals last year (7th is pretty awful for someone with "all that talent") and has not been able to withstand pressure in many of her international outings (4th at the Olympics with no pressure on her and then she completely blew her LP at Worlds when she was in 1st after the SP, skated poorly and got no credit for a SPIN of all things at the following Nationals right after Alissa pretty much blew the doors off her program to keep herself off the World team, a terrible skate at Skate Canada to start last season's GP when she was trying to prove she was focused and ready...).

FWIW, Gracie has to go to (Upper Great Lakes) Regionals before her international assignments and has to finish in the top 4 there in order to move on to Nationals (one of her GPs is within a week of Midwestern Sectionals which gives her a bye through Sectionals), so how are the assignments USFS gave (Finlandia, which they CAN give) Mirai NOT a kind of help (especially having watched her skate from Glacier Falls which was less than stellar and showed she had A LOT of work to do to be competitive this year)?

I suspect there is an understanding that if Alissa withdraws from NHK that she will be replaced by Mirai and that the expectation from USFS and the JSF is that the likelihood is pretty high.

Personally, Mirai has been disappointing in that she has much potential and CAN hit, but rarely has and has often done herself in.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
USFS assigns no one to GP events except SA which is reserved for the US Champion and two skaters who the US Champion *should* be able to beat (ie, not a real challenger and based on what you all seem to think who are arguing that USFS is "against Mirai" then they *shouldn't* pick her as she would challenge Ashley at SA, so your logic is circular and/or flawed). Mirai was guaranteed 1 GP event based on her scores from last year, which she got. She tanked at Nationals last year (7th is pretty awful for someone with "all that talent") and has not been able to withstand pressure in many of her international outings (4th at the Olympics with no pressure on her and then she completely blew her LP at Worlds when she was in 1st after the SP, skated poorly and got no credit for a SPIN of all things at the following Nationals right after Alissa pretty much blew the doors off her program to keep herself off the World team, a terrible skate at Skate Canada to start last season's GP when she was trying to prove she was focused and ready...).

FWIW, Gracie has to go to (Upper Great Lakes) Regionals before her international assignments and has to finish in the top 4 there in order to move on to Nationals (one of her GPs is within a week of Midwestern Sectionals which gives her a bye through Sectionals), so how are the assignments USFS gave (Finlandia, which they CAN give) Mirai NOT a kind of help (especially having watched her skate from Glacier Falls which was less than stellar and showed she had A LOT of work to do to be competitive this year)?

I suspect there is an understanding that if Alissa withdraws from NHK that she will be replaced by Mirai and that the expectation from USFS and the JSF is that the likelihood is pretty high.

Personally, Mirai has been disappointing in that she has much potential and CAN hit, but rarely has and has often done herself in.

Sorry that sounds like a Gracie fan post.
When Gracie was not good enough to get out of sectionals Mirai was already a Natl champion.

Mirai had no pressure at the Olympics? How in the world can you make such a careless and uninformed remark?

Do you know Mirai personally? Do you know what Frank's feelings and expectations were? Of course you do not!

In case you slept through the Ladies skating at Vancouver, the final group laid down the best skating in Olympic history.

Mirai only had to follow perhaps the most emotional skate from Joannie in Olympic history. That's got to easy - nothing to it :eek:

No pressure you say? Do you say that from your own Olympic skating experience :rolleye:

Geez, I can't believe what you just wrote.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Sorry that sounds like a Gracie fan post.
When Gracie was not good enough to get out of regionals Mirai was already a Natl champion.

Mirai had no pressure at the Olympics? How in the world can you make such a careless and uninformed remark?

Do you know Mirai personally? Do you know what Frank's feelings and expectations were? Of course you do not!

In case you slept through the Ladies skating at Vancouver, the final group laid down the best skating in Olympic history.

Mirai only had to follow perhaps the most emotional skate from Joannie in Olympic history. That's got to easy - nothing to it :eek:

No pressure you say? Do you say that from your own Olympic skating experience :rolleye:

Geez, I can't believe what you just wrote.

I think what Mskater93 is saying that Mirai had no pressure placed on her, not that she didn't feel any pressure personally. And I don't think that's a stretch to say. All eyes internationally were on Mao vs. Yuna and to some extent Joannie as the hometown favorite. And from the U.S. team perspective, all eyes were on the national champion, Rachael. I think everyone knew Mirai had enormous talent and could potentially do well, but I don't think anyone expected her to get as close as she did to the podium.

There is a perception among fans that Mirai does well when there isn't some expectation placed on her. How many times on this board have people joked that they hoped Mirai would be second or third after the SP because of her past history to do poorly after placing first? I will point out that there is a key exception to this -- she was first after the SP at 2010 Nationals and she followed that with a good performance in the FS.

Also, Gracie didn't qualify because of placing 5th in sectionals, not regionals, in 2011.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Indeed USFS has plenty of practice bending rules for people who do badly at US nationals that they want to favor, because of Alissa. People they don't like, (as say Tonya Harding back when she finished 7th at US Nationals) had to go to regionals & sectionals.

Mirai doesn't.

That would be the difference.

Slightly OT, but yes, if USFSA does not like you, they won't bend the rules for you. Tonya actually finished 4th at Nationals that year, with a better skate than 2nd and 3rd. And they made her go to Regionals (but she got out of it by saying she had death threats).
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think what Mskater93 is saying that Mirai had no pressure placed on her, not that she didn't feel any pressure personally. And I don't think that's a stretch to say. All eyes internationally were on Mao vs. Yuna and to some extent Joannie as the hometown favorite. And from the U.S. team perspective, all eyes were on the national champion, Rachael. I think everyone knew Mirai had enormous talent and could potentially do well, but I don't think anyone expected her to get as close as she did to the podium.

There is a perception among fans that Mirai does well when there isn't some expectation placed on her. How many times on this board have people joked that they hoped Mirai would be second or third after the SP because of her past history to do poorly after placing first? I will point out that there is a key exception to this -- she was first after the SP at 2010 Nationals and she followed that with a good performance in the FS.

Also, Gracie didn't qualify because of placing 5th in sectionals, not regionals, in 2011.

My perceptions were different than yours. My eyes were not on Rachael but Mirai in Vancouver.

If we are talking about problems with skaters under performing then let's be half-way fair. It is true Mirai bombed her LP at 2010 Worlds. She finished 7th.

I have also seen Ashley bomb at Worlds but not finish 7th.

I have seen Alissa bomb at worlds and not finish 7th.

I have seen Rachael bomb at worlds and not finish 7th.

Are you seeing a pattern here? It feels very odd to get on Mirai for coming in 7th when our other girls have done considerably WORSE.

And more than once, no ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Can someone explain how the USFSA is "bending the rules?" Don't the rules say that you are exempt from sectionals and regionals if you have a conflicting international assignment?

As for "favoring" the top guns in giving out these assignments, doesn't this work mainly to the advantage of the lesser known challengers at sectionals and regionals, so they don't have to go up against former champions to have a shot at making nationals?
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Can someone explain how the USFSA is "bending the rules?" Don't the rules say that you are exempt from sectionals and regionals if you have a conflicting international assignment?

As for "favoring" the top guns in giving out these assignments, doesn't this work mainly to the advantage of the lesser known challengers at sectionals and regionals, so they don't have to go up against former champions to have a shot at making nationals?

I think the argument made here is that USFSA is out to screw Mirai because she has not received a second GP and people are countering that argument by saying that current USFSA assignments actually favor Mirai, not the opposite.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Can someone explain how the USFSA is "bending the rules?" Don't the rules say that you are exempt from sectionals and regionals if you have a conflicting international assignment?

As for "favoring" the top guns in giving out these assignments, doesn't this work mainly to the advantage of the lesser known challengers at sectionals and regionals, so they don't have to go up against former champions to have a shot at making nationals?

I think it is just an attempt to defend US Skating.

I was hoping for a reasonable explanation of why Agnes and Christina got two GP's and Mirai only one.

I pointed out that Mirai won a Gold medal at a senior ISU Intl event last season and a GP silver.
Did Agnes or Christina do as well? Which of these skaters has the higher ISU Intl ranking?

It's one thing when a Natl team is being picked but the GP assignments always felt a little different to me.

I remember reading 10 pages of dissent here when Sasha after being gone for three years was given 2 GP's back in the fall of '09.
I forget what the conclsuion was but anyone who says "US Skating" can't do anything about this is living on a different planet.

Federations trade and wheel and deal all the time. We just read about the possibilty of Japanese skaters being moved from CoC.
Hello....Mira is a Japanese-American skater and if the situation were to get worse it would make US Skating look worse than words I can write here to still send her to CoC.

Anyway, I categorically reject the idea that Mirai has been "favored" by US Skating. If anything I think the opposite is closer to the truth.

Perhaps as was suggested a backroom deal has already been worked out to send Mirai to NHK if Alissa isn't ready.

Talk about a prime example of wheeling and dealing....... :yes:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It does seem strange that all the other federations, except China, passed on Mirai when it came to inviting skaters for their big shindigs.

The ISU ranking (based on last season plus the season before factored at 80%) goes Alissa, Ashley and Mirai, followed by Agnes, Caroline Z, Christina Gao, Rachael, Vanessa Lam, and Gracie Gold.

The personal best list for active U.S. skaters is topped by Ashley, Mirai, Rachael, and Alissa, in that order.

Records aside, Mirai (when she's on) is a charismatic crowd pleaser. Seems like someone would think she was a worthy addition to their roster.
 

Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Could be lots of reasons for Rachael's low score.
She could have just been coming off vacation and wanted to get back on the ice at a low profile summer event.

Maybe she was trying out a new program and left out some of the more difficult elements.
I don't see much comparison to a summer club event and an ISU Intl senior event.

I haven't seen Caroline's skates from Nebelhorn and don't feel any need to - just hope she does better next time.


Flatt attended school all summer, as per her tweets.

I think back to the day of Hamill, Fleming, et al....when they competed just a few times a year, and not under the microsope of the
"adoring" public, cough-cough....uber skating fans...when they could put programs out when they were still learning them, and had the
chance to work thru rough choreography before they were openly criticized on the internet. So much for years gone by.....
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
When the USFSA wants to help out struggling top senior skaters, they help out with a place at Skate America, not some senior B event like Finlandia or Nebelhorn.

Usually when a top senior skater doesn't do too well at a Nationals, they can usually fall back on their international ranking for 2 GPs, getting them a nationals bye. Flatt, Czisny and Caroline have all had their dark years, and had their international points "run out." US was more than ready to give out a Skate America during hard times, although they've been more generous with some than others. Even Caroline Zhang was eventually granted a spot at SA.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It does seem strange that all the other federations, except China, passed on Mirai when it came to inviting skaters for their big shindigs.

The ISU ranking (based on last season plus the season before factored at 80%) goes Alissa, Ashley and Mirai, followed by Agnes, Caroline Z, Christina Gao, Rachael, Vanessa Lam, and Gracie Gold.

The personal best list for active U.S. skaters is topped by Ashley, Mirai, Rachael, and Alissa, in that order.

Records aside, Mirai (when she's on) is a charismatic crowd pleaser. Seems like someone would think she was a worthy addition to their roster.

It makes me wonder after watching this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igZAmv_kF0w&feature=related

The EuroSport team called it the second best LP at Vancouver and I agree. I think it is one of the greatest LP's ever skated by an American Lady on Olympic Ice.

Where is this rush to write off Mirai coming from?

If that had happened with Ashley at 19 ........ just thinking about that should wake a few people up.

What about Carolina Kostner? Or Akiko? I guess some Gracie fans would like Mirai and Alissa to retire, or any skater they see as a threat to Gracie.
After watching Gracie making mistakes at her most recent events I can see she needs more time and seasoning to challenge the top skaters in the world.

That's fine and the way it should be.

The thing is a high degree of talent is needed to succeed at the highest levels in skating. If some think it is a sprint under this scoring system they would be wrong. Sure consistency matters - but so does the abilty to skate brilliantly at times matter.

As to Agnes, Christina and Gracie getting two GP's ahead of Mirai - it seems bizarre to me. Nothing they have ever shown can match Mirai's best.

Potential is one thing - but laying down some great skates is something different. Mirai has done it - and hoping someday Agnes, Christina and Gracie will do it too.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
It makes me wonder after watching this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igZAmv_kF0w&feature=related

The EuroSport team called it the second best LP at Vancouver and I agree. I think it is one of the greatest LP's ever skated by an American Lady on Olympic Ice.

Where is this rush to write off Mirai coming from?

If that had happened with Ashley at 19 ........ just thinking about that should wake a few people up.

What about Carolina Kostner? Or Akiko? I guess some Gracie fans would like Mirai and Alissa to retire, or any skater they see as a threat to Gracie.
After watching Gracie making mistakes at her most recent events I can see she needs more time and seasoning to challenge the top skaters in the world.

That's fine and the way it should be.

The thing is a high degree of talent is needed to succeed at the highest levels in skating. If some think it is a sprint under this scoring system they would be wrong. Sure consistency matters - but so does the abilty to skate brilliantly at times matter.

As to Agnes, Christina and Gracie getting two GP's ahead of Mirai - it seems bizarre to me. Nothing they have ever shown can match Mirai's best.

Potential is one thing - but laying down some great skates is something different. Mirai has done it - and hoping someday Agnes, Christina and Gracie will do it too.
I completely agree with what you said here! :agree:
 
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